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Struggling with Hills

Old 09-02-19, 11:18 AM
  #76  
drbarney1
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Consider training legs with low rep range heavy as you can safely handle dead-lifts and squats to build strength and use hills to build endurance. Eat protein after each exercise session.
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Old 09-02-19, 11:55 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by bygeorge
We are new riders and want advice as to weather we should consider lower gears or just a matter of not physically fit enough to do hills? I have counted the teeth on our bikes and hope to receive some advice.

George
Cassette 32 x 11. Rings. 48 x 36 x 26

Lois
Cassette 34 x 14 Rings 48 x 38 x 28
Are you familiar with "the calves of belleville"?
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Old 09-02-19, 11:58 AM
  #78  
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So true!

The other thing is that maybe you aren’t always climbing. Don’t setup a bike with super low gearing because of the hills and find yourself unable to keep up on the flats.
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Old 09-02-19, 12:00 PM
  #79  
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How do people deal with false flats, by the way? I can generally handle short steep walls, but what kills me is extended drags at like a 2-3% grade. I'll happily bypass those for a short steep effort up an actual wall, but is there any kind of technique for longer slow drags like that?
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Old 09-02-19, 12:28 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by bygeorge
We are new riders and want advice as to weather we should consider lower gears or just a matter of not physically fit enough to do hills? I have counted the teeth on our bikes and hope to receive some advice.

George
Cassette 32 x 11. Rings. 48 x 36 x 26

Lois
Cassette 34 x 14 Rings 48 x 38 x 28
There is a lot of good advice here, but you should get the idea that "your mileage may vary." One of the things that no one (forgive me if I missed it) has mentioned is that there are differences not only in muscle mass, but in how different people's muscles work. This has to do with the ratio of "slow twitch" to "fast twitch" muscle cells. Sprinters tend to have a higher proportion of "fast twitch" cells. Those who are on the endurance edge of the spectrum tend to have more "slow twitch" cells. Note that training can and will change the proportion.

What works for you, mashing or spinning, is related to that. I suspect "spinners" may have a higher proportion of "fast twitch" cells, whereas "mashers" are the opposite. I suspect that those who ride at high cadences are toward the fast twitch end. If so, then if a rider feels more comfortable at a high cadence, then spinning might be a better choice. Note that this ignores the effect of aerobic conditioning (or lack of it.)

Also, take a look at the human leg. There is far more muscle mass in the back than in the front. There is a reason for this: when we walk or run, on the backstroke, the leg is moving the entire body forward, whereas bringing the leg forward for the next stride is only moving the mass of the leg. Mashing takes advantage of this.

Age and injury also play a role in which technique one uses. When I was young I was a "masher." Now, after serious injury to my spine, I wouldn't dare—mashing puts a lot of strain on the lower back.

Bottom line: just don't quit. Experiment with what works for you, both physically and mechanically. However, there is no "mechanical panacea," that will make hills easy (other than an electrical assist). Not knowing more about your specific situation, I'd try with technique and conditioning first, then look at lower gearing.
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Old 09-02-19, 12:30 PM
  #81  
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I prefer mashing to spinning (grinding) to protect my ancient knees.
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Old 09-02-19, 12:31 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by Gorrister
I read this as “struggling with bills” and thought you and me both brother/sister
More coffee?
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Old 09-02-19, 12:43 PM
  #83  
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My son is young and currently rides an 18" bike. We have a substantial hill on our road. He has ridden this hill, usually having to stop part way up to walk, pretty much every day for the past month. Last week, he finally made it up the hill, on his bike, without stopping. He just needed to practice and build muscle to be able to do it. (Because good golly are kids' bikes heavy.) There's no simple or quick fix for riding hills, you just need to practice.
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Old 09-02-19, 01:27 PM
  #84  
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Your gear ratios sound fine for doing hills. In addition to doing more climbing on the bike to build fitness, doing strength training for your quadriceps and abdominal muscles will also make climbing hills easier. It's all about power to weight ratio.
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Old 09-02-19, 02:43 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by Dave372
I prefer mashing to spinning (grinding) to protect my ancient knees.
YMMV: My knees, also ancient, prefer spinning. Knees is knotional.
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Old 09-02-19, 03:15 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by bygeorge
We are new riders and want advice as to weather we should consider lower gears or just a matter of not physically fit enough to do hills? I have counted the teeth on our bikes and hope to receive some advice.

George
Cassette 32 x 11. Rings. 48 x 36 x 26

Lois
Cassette 34 x 14 Rings 48 x 38 x 28
Ride up grades, don't buy upgrades.

Someone wiser than me once said this.

Your gearing is very generous for hills. Just ride more up hills. You will get stronger over time.
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Old 09-02-19, 03:30 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by sheddle
How do people deal with false flats, by the way? I can generally handle short steep walls, but what kills me is extended drags at like a 2-3% grade. I'll happily bypass those for a short steep effort up an actual wall, but is there any kind of technique for longer slow drags like that?
Find your sustainable pace and comfortable gear for the grade, and keep that going. Every few minutes, click up a gear or two and stand.
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Old 09-02-19, 03:42 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
When my main limiter is oxygen uptake, better efficiency improves my sustainable power.
Even when riding at FTP most people are only using about 75% or so of their VO2Max so it's not clear that more efficiency would positively impact your fatigue resistance.
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Old 09-02-19, 04:15 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by zarbog
I started riding last July at 68 years old. Gentle hills killed me and it was granny gear and 6 kilometers per hour. Had to stop and catch my breath at the top of hills. Maybe 3% grade and a quarter mile long. 1900 kilometers later, I climb those hills at 22 kilometer per hour without dropping speed. It's still hard, but it's amazing how much faster you become after a while, and how far you can go in a single ride.
^^^ Excellent!

If I may chime in I'm 61 and started riding last fall after a 30 or so year departure from the sport. I live in a fairly hilly area. When I first started I couldn't make it 1/4 of the way up the hill on my street, it is about a quarter mile long and over 10-12% grade, it's steep. I kept at it, failure , failure, failure then I started making some progress.

One day I made it half way up, the next try I want further then finally a week ago I told myself today is the day do or die time. I made it finally!!! Afterwards I thought it was luck but I have since repeated it twice and faster each time.

Now I have to all more hills and longer rides. My point being that I thought I couldn't do it but persistence has it's rewards and so I say keep at it.

My low gearing is 52-42-30, 12-26 So the OP has granny gears much lower than mine, I agree with others it is fitness that matters most.
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Old 09-02-19, 04:18 PM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by gregf83
Even when riding at FTP most people are only using about 75% or so of their VO2Max so it's not clear that more efficiency would positively impact your fatigue resistance.
I said "I" and "my", not "most people" so it should be pretty clear.

It is similar to "running efficiency" which helps tremendously in improving your sustainable running pace.
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Old 09-02-19, 04:18 PM
  #91  
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I've recently returned to cycling after a 40-year pause. It took me 2 months to get out of the "granny gear" when riding up modest grades.
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Old 09-02-19, 04:59 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
I said "I" and "my", not "most people" so it should be pretty clear.

It is similar to "running efficiency" which helps tremendously in improving your sustainable running pace.
You're not that special. You're not riding anywhere close to your VO2Max. There's a reason those who care about performance don't pedal at 60RPM even though it may be more efficient.
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Old 09-02-19, 05:14 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by gregf83
You're not that special. You're not riding anywhere close to your VO2Max. There's a reason those who care about performance don't pedal at 60RPM even though it may be more efficient.
Maybe, but I'm going a bit faster for much longer at 70 rpm in a high gear than the fast pedalers I see on the streets and the paths. It's really stupid to assume leg muscles, hearts and lungs are standard issue, and that one method is going to be optimum for everyone.
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Old 09-02-19, 06:01 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Maybe, but I'm going a bit faster for much longer at 70 rpm in a high gear than the fast pedalers I see on the streets and the paths.
How is that remotely relevant? Froome passes everyone riding at a high cadence. Neither statement provides any information on the most effective cadence for an individual.
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Old 09-02-19, 06:12 PM
  #95  
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Cycling involves two types of muscles: slow twitch and fast twitch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myocyte#Fiber_types).

Fast twitch muscles develop quickly from exercise and are what you use for quick bursts of speed and what cyclists call "power".

Slow twitch muscles require a lot of blood supply and growing new blood vessels takes time. You need to be patient with climbing as you are literally growing new blood vessels to supply your fatigue-resistant muscle fibers.

I would give it a year of steady improvement myself. You will get there.

Or you could get lower gears and do like me: realize that your purpose in life is to give everyone else someone to pass.
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Old 09-02-19, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by gregf83
You're not that special. You're not riding anywhere close to your VO2Max. There's a reason those who care about performance don't pedal at 60RPM even though it may be more efficient.
Which should suggest logically to you, that the assertion that "most people" (rather vague IMO) are at only 75% of their oxygen capacity at FTP is suspect.

Regardless, I assure you that I know far more about my capabilities and weaknesses than you do. I also know far better at what effort I'm riding, and how close it is to FTP max, than you do.

And I even know a few reasons why people might pedal at higher than 60 rpm. *I* ride at about 90, and running step rate at 180 even though it is less efficient - and it IS less efficient - for reasons which have nothing to do with FTP. And my easy pace will win local 5K's in my age group, so it's a little bit special.
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Old 09-02-19, 07:00 PM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
Which should suggest logically to you, that the assertion that "most people" (rather vague IMO) are at only 75% of their oxygen capacity at FTP is suspect.

Regardless, I assure you that I know far more about my capabilities and weaknesses than you do. I also know far better at what effort I'm riding, and how close it is to FTP max, than you do.

And I even know a few reasons why people might pedal at higher than 60 rpm. *I* ride at about 90, and running step rate at 180 even though it is less efficient - and it IS less efficient - for reasons which have nothing to do with FTP. And my easy pace will win local 5K's in my age group, so it's a little bit special.
I can't tell but I don't think you're disagreeing with anything I said. I agree pedaling at a lower cadence is more efficient. You asserted the differences in efficiency could be mitigated by training (at least at that's how I interpreted your comments). I'm suggesting that, based on available research, even those who train at high cadence are less efficient when pedaling at high cadence but that it doesn't matter because efficiency is not as important as power output.

Regarding O2 consumption of 75% that's just a ballpark. With plenty of training you might get that up to 80% of VO2Max but it's still a long way from VO2Max.
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Old 09-02-19, 07:11 PM
  #98  
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And BTW if you're at 85% uptake capacity it absolutely helps to train that up to 90%. It's the holy grail of endurance training in fact, and to me it's ludicrous to claim that it's irrelevant because we use less than VO2max at FTP. A completely irrelevant point, and even less relevant if your hour performance is limited by getting winded. Less relevant still if you don't care at all about your hour performance but you like to ride fast. Or stronger up hills, like the topical question.

If you can gain that 5% by increasing your oxygen uptake, or by increasing your efficiency, it's still 5%.

One big reason you don't ride around - or race as someone inevitably brings up - at 60 rpm is after training at higher RPM the efficiency differences diminish. Training specificity. Regardless of one's maximal oxygen uptake we prefer the higher cadence because among other things we find velocity changes to be less fatiguing.
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Old 09-02-19, 07:40 PM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
Find your sustainable pace and comfortable gear for the grade, and keep that going. Every few minutes, click up a gear or two and stand.
I did some today, and yeah, that was pretty much it. Key was not succumbing to the psychological effect that you "should" be going faster on what looks like a flat (which made me attempt to up the pace previously)
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Old 09-02-19, 08:13 PM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by gregf83
How is that remotely relevant? Froome passes everyone riding at a high cadence. Neither statement provides any information on the most effective cadence for an individual.
All I can tell you is that I can go both faster and farther running very high gears at about 70 rpm than I can spinning lower gears. I can maintain speeds in low to mid-20 mph range for several hours riding the way I do, and if I spin a lower gear, I go a bit slower and get winded. You could certainly argue that I might be faster if I trained otherwise and I can't logically prove the negative, but frankly, I am pretty fast for a 58 year old, have been getting faster three years in a row, I ride two centuries pretty much every weekend in the summer, and I just have no reason to believe you.

I'm playing to my strengths. I don't fatigue putting out a lot of torque. Reducing torque and increasing repetitions is much less effective and more inefficient for me.
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