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Would one TT bike win a full pro team of road racers?

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Would one TT bike win a full pro team of road racers?

Old 06-12-22, 04:28 AM
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LosPesos
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Would one TT bike win a full pro team of road racers?

I saw this "8 vs 1" video on Youtube with one TT bike going against a full amateur team of road bikes.

It made me wonder, who would win if they were all pros. Pro time trialist and a pro team. What do you think? I guess TT bike would win.
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Old 06-12-22, 09:37 AM
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You haven't provided any info about course type, length, whether there are climbs or not. Do all the riders start together? If so and the TT rider just went out and hammered the guys on road bikes would just sit on him then sprint at the end. Kind of a dumb question.
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Old 06-12-22, 09:38 AM
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You're leaving a lot out of your question. Particularly the route profile and length as well as road surface conditions.

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Old 06-12-22, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
You haven't provided any info about course type, length, whether there are climbs or not. Do all the riders start together? If so and the TT rider just went out and hammered the guys on road bikes would just sit on him then sprint at the end. Kind of a dumb question.
Well let's use similar conditions than on the video. 48 km course. Fairly flat. Only a few intersections. TT bike starts separately after the team.

I can't write URL because of some newbie rule, but search "8 vs 1" on Youtube or
youtu.be / JCOoABDSIKc
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Old 06-12-22, 09:50 AM
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GCN did this too. They had a lot shorter course and 5 roadies against one TT bike
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Old 06-12-22, 10:57 AM
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TT bike would not stand a chance against a moderately fit 60 year old solo on a recumbent.
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Old 06-12-22, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
TT bike would not stand a chance against a moderately fit 60 year old solo on a recumbent.
None of the recumbents broke an hour in the 40k at the USAC regionals TT and there were a lot of podium spots of TT bikes several several minutes faster than the winning 40k recumbent time. And one the recumbent bikes was one of those all carbon fairing "racer" recumbents also.

Just like the original question, there's a whole lot of "it depends". So, despite the massive aero advantage a recumbent still needs the aerobic engine of the rider. And it's not really the point of this topic.

As for the original question, most pros could draft a TT bike no problem. Their road bike fits are pretty aggressive and they all have massive aerobic engines. As for a TTT on road bikes versus an ITT with a TT bike, I put the numbers for a flat ITT into aeroweenie and the road bike CdA would need whoever is pulling in the TTT to be putting out 650w versus the ITT rider doing "just" 450w for 54kph. I got the 54kph from a road bike only TTT that happened in a UCI 2.2 race for a team I follow. They did 54kph for like only 2km.

So pro TTT versus pro ITT.........ITT rider wins.

For amateurs drafting the TT bike, I've had my teammates try before. We started with 4 tagalongs. After about 10min we lost two. The other two held on another 10min or so. Then I was mean and dropped them when I went into VO2 power for a couple minutes.

As for pros wheelsucking a TT bike, they can do that no problem. Amateurs? Usually as an amateur rider you're either a TT aerobic engine rider, or you're not. If you don't own a TT bike or don't Merckx TT race, you actually likely won't be able to wheelsuck for a whole 40k. Unless the TT rider is a really "big boy".

I let our A+ ride leave 5min early once and I rode the TT bike behind, not expecting to catch anyone. I caught all of the dropped riders, just not the 4 person break. A few were not in the mood to ride home in solitude so grabbed a wheel. They held wheel for about 15 or 20min with me going at threshold.

The Notio routinely has my CdA from about .197 to .205 lately. My teammates on road bikes are easily over .300, probably .320 or so.
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Old 06-12-22, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
None of the recumbents broke an hour in the 40k at the USAC regionals TT and there were a lot of podium spots of TT bikes several several minutes faster than the winning 40k recumbent time. And one the recumbent bikes was one of those all carbon fairing "racer" recumbents also.

Just like the original question, there's a whole lot of "it depends". So, despite the massive aero advantage a recumbent still needs the aerobic engine of the rider. And it's not really the point of this topic.

As for the original question, most pros could draft a TT bike no problem. Their road bike fits are pretty aggressive and they all have massive aerobic engines. As for a TTT on road bikes versus an ITT with a TT bike, I put the numbers for a flat ITT into aeroweenie and the road bike CdA would need whoever is pulling in the TTT to be putting out 650w versus the ITT rider doing "just" 450w for 54kph. I got the 54kph from a road bike only TTT that happened in a UCI 2.2 race for a team I follow. They did 54kph for like only 2km.

So pro TTT versus pro ITT.........ITT rider wins.

For amateurs drafting the TT bike, I've had my teammates try before. We started with 4 tagalongs. After about 10min we lost two. The other two held on another 10min or so. Then I was mean and dropped them when I went into VO2 power for a couple minutes.

As for pros wheelsucking a TT bike, they can do that no problem. Amateurs? Usually as an amateur rider you're either a TT aerobic engine rider, or you're not. If you don't own a TT bike or don't Merckx TT race, you actually likely won't be able to wheelsuck for a whole 40k. Unless the TT rider is a really "big boy".

I let our A+ ride leave 5min early once and I rode the TT bike behind, not expecting to catch anyone. I caught all of the dropped riders, just not the 4 person break. A few were not in the mood to ride home in solitude so grabbed a wheel. They held wheel for about 15 or 20min with me going at threshold.

The Notio routinely has my CdA from about .197 to .205 lately. My teammates on road bikes are easily over .300, probably .320 or so.
I don't know anything about your local race but the video OP posted showed 45km/h. On the type of road shown in the video, that would be barely tempo on my bent. In reality, there are very few recumbent racers out there. A few years ago at the UMCA 102 mile Nat Championship, four of us bents broke away and put 12 or 14 minutes on the pack of about 80 in just over 30 miles. My bent CdA is 0.140-145 and with an FTP of 312, you can do the math.

Also, the question of whether a pro team could beat a TT champ isn't really answered but I think a top pro team of 8 would destroy a TT racer. I.m not going to model CdA of the riders in a paceline or time of pulls to maximize speed, so, just my belief.
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Old 06-12-22, 12:22 PM
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Shirtless Larry would win.
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Old 06-12-22, 03:07 PM
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GCN is rather absurd, they will put someone stronger on the TT bike and make a contrived video. They are just another arm of Big Gravel trying to n+1 you and the perverse thing is that they always have been. Pros drafting will be about 30% more efficient than solo, Id be very surprised if a TT bike increased efficiency by 30%. Bents are banned for a reason, besides they are afraid of hills, but yes they are killer on flats. I kind of want one.... there is some stigma for some reason though
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Old 06-12-22, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
TT bike would not stand a chance against a moderately fit 60 year old solo on a recumbent.
You're funny. Funny 'ha ha'.
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Old 06-12-22, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
You're funny. Funny 'ha ha'.
National record for 40km is 45 minutes at 6,200 feet of altitude. I am pretty confident it would only take 300 watts on a NoCom to destroy that record. Probably more like 280 watts, unfortunately, there are not too many bent riders who can do that power for 44 minutes.

HaHa to you, too
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Old 06-12-22, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
National record for 40km is 45 minutes at 6,200 feet of altitude. I am pretty confident it would only take 300 watts on a NoCom to destroy that record. Probably more like 280 watts, unfortunately, there are not too many bent riders who can do that power for 44 minutes.

HaHa to you, too
Is it harder to put out power on a recumbent or something? Those arent very high numbers
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Old 06-12-22, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz View Post
Is it harder to put out power on a recumbent or something? Those arent very high numbers
Hard to ride, not many of them, and only old broken down old farts ride them for the most part. It takes a lot of time and effort to get the same power as on a regular bike. An old guy in his 50's on an M5 CHR recumbent took on UCI time trial teams on the track and beat some of them. That was teams of 8 riders.

8 riders in formation on a regular upright should be able to keep 55 kph, which is probably just over what a top TT would do. It would be interesting but my money would be on the 8 professionals, not domestic riders but a top Tour team
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Old 06-12-22, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz View Post
GCN is rather absurd, they will put someone stronger on the TT bike and make a contrived video. They are just another arm of Big Gravel trying to n+1 you and the perverse thing is that they always have been. Pros drafting will be about 30% more efficient than solo, Id be very surprised if a TT bike increased efficiency by 30%. Bents are banned for a reason, besides they are afraid of hills, but yes they are killer on flats. I kind of want one.... there is some stigma for some reason though
"..just another arm of Big Gravel"? Like this guy?
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Old 06-12-22, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
It takes a lot of time and effort to get the same power as on a regular bike.
Different postures need to be trained for in general, and recumbents are a big change in posture.

I don't ride recumbent, but I know a couple guys with Bacchettas. Right now they aren't getting much use, but for a while, one of the guys was riding his 'bent a lot. During that time, he was getting pretty similar power numbers between the recumbent and his road bike. Things got interesting on the climbs: sustained steep uphill was usually a smidge faster on his road bike, but on climbs that were shallow or had dips to the top, he'd sometimes be faster on the recumbent despite it having a pretty large weight disadvantage.
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Old 06-12-22, 08:07 PM
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Without any other information (course length, profile, race type, etc) I would put my money on 8 pro riders to beat one pro on a TT bike.

The pro team guys could do MONSTER power turns on the front, then recover while seven others do the same, true team-TT style. The TT rider would have the aero advantage, but would need to hold a steady (lower) power.
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Old 06-13-22, 12:19 AM
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Ganna vs 8 of Jumbo Vismas best. Same flat course. I'll take Jumbo.
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Old 06-13-22, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
National record for 40km is 45 minutes at 6,200 feet of altitude. I am pretty confident it would only take 300 watts on a NoCom to destroy that record. Probably more like 280 watts, unfortunately, there are not too many bent riders who can do that power for 44 minutes.

HaHa to you, too
Honestly, nobody asked you. You've for years jumped into topics like this with the recumbent stuff with questionable data, claims, and "this would crush that" nonsense.

You even contradict yourself in your own post when you start backpedalling your claims from "destroy that record" to "there are not too many bent riders who can do that power for 44 minutes".

Right. Weak flex. Weak.

To the rest.........ya'll realize there's stage finish times for TTT's done on road bikes, right? And there's also stage finish times for plenty of pro ITT's. Sorry to say, the road bike TTT's are universally slower. I already posted the example from a real result.

Ganna did 33mph in Imola. Aeroweenie puts a roadie with a .300 CdA on a road bike at 630w for that speed. Which is a great CdA for a road bike setup. Most pros can probably do 630 for 90 seconds? Maybe 120 seconds? Ganna did Imola in about 35min. 35min divided by 2min worth of pulling?

Try again.
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Old 06-13-22, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
Honestly, nobody asked you. You've for years jumped into topics like this with the recumbent stuff with questionable data, claims, and "this would crush that" nonsense.
It's even more awesomer when he jumps in road topics with speed/distance boasts and doesn't disclose that he's referencing 'bent rides unless pressed.
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Old 06-13-22, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by tempocyclist View Post
Without any other information (course length, profile, race type, etc) I would put my money on 8 pro riders to beat one pro on a TT bike.

The pro team guys could do MONSTER power turns on the front, then recover while seven others do the same, true team-TT style. The TT rider would have the aero advantage, but would need to hold a steady (lower) power.
I'm with tempocyclist. The lone TT rider will have a significant aero advantage over a lone rider on a road bike. But with eight pros who know how to rotate through a line and stay on each other's wheel, that advantage would be easily negated. The team would simply wear the lone wolf down in the first few miles, by letting one guy at a time push hard while the others recover and enjoy the aero advantage of drafting. TT guy is more aero than whoever is on the front of the line, but he's gotta be max effort all the time.
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Old 06-13-22, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Ghazmh View Post
Shirtless Larry would win.
Only if he was riding on his 47 cm bike with a massive seatpost for maximal aero and is flip flops.
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Old 06-13-22, 01:10 PM
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GCN did a series of TT bike versus road bike pack comparisons. This was the last showdown: four on road bikes (plus coach!) versus one TT bike rider.


Last edited by Trakhak; 06-13-22 at 01:13 PM.
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Old 06-13-22, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
Honestly, nobody asked you. You've for years jumped into topics like this with the recumbent stuff with questionable data, claims, and "this would crush that" nonsense.

You even contradict yourself in your own post when you start backpedalling your claims from "destroy that record" to "there are not too many bent riders who can do that power for 44 minutes".

Right. Weak flex. Weak.

To the rest.........ya'll realize there's stage finish times for TTT's done on road bikes, right? And there's also stage finish times for plenty of pro ITT's. Sorry to say, the road bike TTT's are universally slower. I already posted the example from a real result.

Ganna did 33mph in Imola. Aeroweenie puts a roadie with a .300 CdA on a road bike at 630w for that speed. Which is a great CdA for a road bike setup. Most pros can probably do 630 for 90 seconds? Maybe 120 seconds? Ganna did Imola in about 35min. 35min divided by 2min worth of pulling?

Try again.
Years?

I've been a member for one year. I rarely bring up recumbents, you might confuse me with another.

Relax. It is just a discussion. Take a rest day. Monitor HrV closer.

You cite a roadie cdA of 0.300, yet, you have claimed (I believe it) that your CdA is 0.250 on the road and around 0.190 on your TT bike (which I also believe). So, 8 riders alternating at 600 watts at 0.250 would probably beat a TT rider at 420-440 watts. You do realize the lead rider gains a fairly significant aero advantage compared to riding solo, so, I think 0.250 is probably conservative figure for the lead rider who is a top pro.

WRT claims. I gave a simple fact, Bram Moens beat several UCI TTT single handedly in his 50's. Another fact, the hour record for a bent is faster, was done at sea level, and was not done by a world champion rider, just a really solid top amateur. All facts.

I was responding to our buddy on the West who was asking about bents in general. I did not contradict myself, there are very few fast recumbent bikes or riders out there....just a fact. There are maybe 20-50 total fast recumbent bikes in the country (M5, NoCom, Mirciglio, Troytec). Put such a bent at aguascalientes at altitude rather than Bordeaux and you'd probably see 60 km in an hour instead of 56.597 km/h set by Matthias König several years back vs 55.089km UCI record.
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Old 06-14-22, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
Ganna did 33mph in Imola. Aeroweenie puts a roadie with a .300 CdA on a road bike at 630w for that speed. Which is a great CdA for a road bike setup. Most pros can probably do 630 for 90 seconds? Maybe 120 seconds? Ganna did Imola in about 35min. 35min divided by 2min worth of pulling?
Wow! 630w at front for one hour divided with eight team members... I would say that's impossible. It's not resting behind either.
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