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NYTimes on Bike Safety

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NYTimes on Bike Safety

Old 04-22-22, 12:29 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by msu2001la
Amsterdam wasn't always like that either. It was full of cars in the 1970's with car-focused roadways. The change you see today is a direct result of decades of policy shift.
The shift happened fairly quickly. What you see today (a high level of cycling infrastructure) was the result of the shift being quick.

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2...ng-kindermoord

Originally Posted by msu2001la
We could have that in the US if people wanted it. Too many people just throw their hands up and say "we can't do that here" though, and we end up designing roadways and cities around cars instead because it's just the way it is.
There were a few things (geographical, historical, demographical) that made it much easier in the Netherlands than it would be to do or have done in the US.

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Old 04-22-22, 12:36 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
You can't blame or punish an inanimate object for causing death or damage. It's the human using that particular object who is to blame and should be punished if they misuse that object .
It's not about blame or punishment. It's about understanding the hazards. Distracted driving is one. Limited visibility is another. Wall-like front ends is yet another. You can't react to what you don't see, just as you won't react to something you could see but didn't because you were distracted.
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Old 04-22-22, 01:16 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
You can't blame or punish an inanimate object for causing death or damage. It's the human using that particular object who is to blame and should be punished if they misuse that object .

Individuals who only have a basic level of driver training and haven't had their skills or ability retested in decades (if ever) are not qualified to pilot large trucks or SUV's with limited visibility, especially in urban environments. A solution would be to require additional licensing and training to purchase and operate large trucks/SUVs, and restrict their use in urban environments, similar to what is required of a commercial trucks/drivers. Everyone else can only buy a small car with good visibility, limited horsepower, speed limiters, etc.

Since that is unlikely to happen, the next logical step is to have a conversation about the size/types of vehicles that are being sold.
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Old 04-22-22, 01:17 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
You can't blame or punish an inanimate object for causing death or damage. It's the human using that particular object who is to blame and should be punished if they misuse that object .
You sound like someone that has "We the people..." tattooed upon your person despite never having read the constitution.
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Old 04-22-22, 01:57 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by Daniel4
Statistics stating deaths per million miles are meaningless. A cyclist or pedestrian on a 10 mile park trail is much safer than one on a busy suburban arterial road. Cyclists and pedestrians don't usually die on their own while riding or walking but motorists do when they go speeding on an empty street on a Friday or Saturday night. Cyclists and pedestrians die when cars hit them. How dangerous a road is is determined by a combination of the number of cars and their speed.

Remove pedestrians and cyclists from the road and motor vehicle fatalities and injuries remain the same. Remove motor vehicles from the road and fatalities and injuries for everybody drop dramatically. Toronto has the statistics showing that for the year 2020 when a lot of people worked from home leaving their cars in the driveway.
I was on a transit train a couple years ago, talking to another cyclist using the train to patch together rides through Denver metro area. Said cyclist told me about the time he was t-boned a few months ago by another cyclist on a MUP in Boulder. Quite serious injuries with ongoing effect. Multi-use trails can often be more dangerous than they look, in my experience. There are also issues with engineering of said trails and upkeep of said trails that add to their danger. That being said, I use multi-use trails a LOT here. Just saying you can get hurt if you think your route choice makes you safe as a babe in arms.

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Old 04-22-22, 02:19 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Daniel4
Statistics stating deaths per million miles are meaningless. A cyclist or pedestrian on a 10 mile park trail is much safer than one on a busy suburban arterial road. Cyclists and pedestrians don't usually die on their own while riding or walking but motorists do when they go speeding on an empty street on a Friday or Saturday night. Cyclists and pedestrians die when cars hit them. How dangerous a road is is determined by a combination of the number of cars and their speed.

Remove pedestrians and cyclists from the road and motor vehicle fatalities and injuries remain the same. Remove motor vehicles from the road and fatalities and injuries for everybody drop dramatically. Toronto has the statistics showing that for the year 2020 when a lot of people worked from home leaving their cars in the driveway.
Statistics though as presented in the article are likewise difficult to wade thru and gauge relevancy. As more people transitioned from taking baths to taking showers, I'd bet more people slipped and died.

What I'd want to know as an individual cyclist, is statistically speaking, if I'm going out on a ride/route that I often do today, how much more likely am I to be involved in a traffic accident than I was doing the same activity say 5 years ago?

I referenced the Citi Bike bikeshare stats. It would be interesting, and don't see why this isn't possible, for CitiBike to additionally track annual volume of their bikes taken out of commission because of an accident. This would be interesting data IMO, combined with the already existing numbers they have on number of rides, distances, etc.
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Old 04-22-22, 02:30 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
Distracted drivers and aggressive drivers are the problem.....not the type or style of a vehicle.
This is actually a car culture argument to keep the status quo as is. "All safety problems are caused by drivers (being drunk, on cell phones, dancing to Taylor Swift, etc.) or cyclists 'swerving' or not wearing helmets."
There is no need to change anything or waste money building separate bicycle infrastructure because if drivers would show some personal responsibility everything will be fine.
We are fed that kind of propaganda for so long in the US many of us might actually believe it, when what is really needed is better road design and technical solutions for all users that discourage distracted and aggressive driving.
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Old 04-22-22, 03:47 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene

I referenced the Citi Bike bikeshare stats. It would be interesting, and don't see why this isn't possible, for CitiBike to additionally track annual volume of their bikes taken out of commission because of an accident. This would be interesting data IMO, combined with the already existing numbers they have on number of rides, distances, etc.
I agree, this would be very interesting data to dig into. I know NYC tracks data on bike crashes as much as they can, but obviously they can only track what gets reported. I don't know if they specifically track crashes involving CitiBikes separately from privately owned bikes.

I'd be surprised if CitiBike was tracking crash data on their own. My assumption is that a lot of CitiBikes damaged in crashes just get checked back into the system unreported because the person who crashed the bike doesn't want to be on the hook for paying to fix it. CitiBike then has no way to differentiate if that bike was damaged in a crash, or vandalized or hit by a car while parked, etc.

This type of specific crash/injury data was problematic during pilots of e-scooters here in Chicago. Even when city leaders were specifically trying to track crashes and injuries associated with scooters, it wasn't always clear. That pilot study recorded 171 ER visits out of 540,000 trips - 93% of those ER visits were the scooter rider, 5% were people who got hit by a scooter rider. I have no idea what the other 2% were. I suspect in reality there were WAY more than 171 injuries from those 540,000 scooter rides, but if someone walks into an ER with a broken arm or collar bone, even if they tell ER staff it happened on a scooter it may not get recorded that way.
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Old 04-22-22, 03:59 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
You sound like someone that has "We the people..." tattooed upon your person despite never having read the constitution.
I've never read the Constitution either, but I can recite the preamble, thanks to Schoolhouse Rock.

I can also ramble off all 50 states in less than 20 seconds.

Winner!
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Old 04-22-22, 04:22 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa
I've never read the Constitution either, but I can recite the preamble, thanks to Schoolhouse Rock.

I can also ramble off all 50 states in less than 20 seconds.

Winner!
Ther-e-e-ere's Antimony, Arsenic, Aluminum, Selenium...

Wait, no. That's the Periodic Table.
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Old 04-22-22, 04:34 PM
  #61  
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Each year I get at least one vehicle inspected in Clayton NC near my work at my lunch break. There's a 4-lane with median road through town, business 70. I watch foot traffic risk life every few minutes waiting on my car inspection to finish. As the area has grown with new developments and shopping areas and parks along there and the connecting roads..................not a single investment in how a person not in a car could ever traverse across that road or between those areas safely. Nor across/between those new neighborhoods. "Sorry little Timmy, you can't walk the 1/4 mile to see Tommy as it's across the road and you'll get hit and I can't drive you right now". Also seeing workers at those shopping centers at lunch risk life to scurry across that road with no crosswalks at the stops so they can go get lunch or run an errand.

It's priorities. The priorities are "me and mine" and "spend shop shop spend produce tax revenue". When you get that and you get your little spit of land and little house all to yourself with everything and everyone else be damned..........yeah, that doesn't leave much consideration for people on foot or on a bicycle. So it's money over life.

What's funny is where it is convenient for them to attract people to come spend money, they do spend the money on it. In areas near the breweries and nicer newer restaurants and shops and upscale things. Make it so folks want to go there and not get plowed over so they can spend money. But the other stuff.........forget it.

Also, being on foot or a bike is still seen as personal recreation. You go to a park to walk or run or bike or golf. Which is a massive problem. It's an elitist problem to assume as well.

The infrastructure simply follows those demands.
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Old 04-22-22, 05:21 PM
  #62  
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All cellphones have GPS, the cell phone manufacturers could make the phone unusable when in motion at say, more than 5mph, but they won’t, even though texting while driving crashes/deaths has overtaken drunk driving deaths. Americans won’t give up their cars or their phones, so we are always going to have to deal with distracted drivers. (And drunks too, but usually only after lunch, which is why I ride in the morning!)

What caused the shift from cars to bicycles in Amsterdam? Was it the high price of gas?

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Old 04-22-22, 07:41 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by A350driver
...
What caused the shift from cars to bicycles in Amsterdam? Was it the high price of gas?
I think it was the "Stop killing our kids" campaign in the 1970s.
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Old 04-22-22, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
The size and style of a vehicle is completely irrelevant....A distracted driver in small car is more deadly and dangerous than a responsible driver in a large full size truck.
No its not. Everybody makes mistakes, get distracted etc, but some cars are harder to drive safely, because they are huge and have poor visibility, thus they encourage mistakes and with their size and weight they punish said mistakes harder.
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Old 04-23-22, 01:45 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by grizzly59
Around here there are so many people looking a their phones while driving that the cops must have given up ticketing anyone for doing it. There was a law passed against it with the Gov giving a speech, etc., promptly forgotten about. Cops have a laptop mounted in the front seat and I often see them looking at that and driving.
Cops have more crap in their cars than anyone and spend the vast majority of their shift driving.

I wonder if some pedex hit and runs are actually by distracted LEOs.
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Old 04-23-22, 06:46 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
Or you could just pay the dollar.
WHAT!?!

You mean actually PAY for journalism?

You are out of your mind, sir.
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Old 04-23-22, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild
You can't blame or punish an inanimate object for causing death or damage. It's the human using that particular object who is to blame and should be punished if they misuse that object .
You absolutely CAN blame the decision to go with a more dangerous design as a contributing factor.

This blame is shared by the people who choose to produce and market the more dangerous design and those who choose to buy and drive that more dangerous design.
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Old 04-23-22, 07:46 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta
You absolutely CAN blame the decision to go with a more dangerous design as a contributing factor.

This blame is shared by the people who choose to produce and market the more dangerous design and those who choose to buy and drive that more dangerous design.
The automobile has a whole bunch of safety features that protect its occupants from death and injury in the event of all sorts of collisions. But there's nothing in the design to prevent death and injuries for the victims it hits.

We have to rely on artificial speed limits and the good will of drivers to obey traffic laws.
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Old 04-23-22, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Daniel4
The automobile has a whole bunch of safety features that protect its occupants from death and injury in the event of all sorts of collisions. But there's nothing in the design to prevent death and injuries for the victims it hits.

We have to rely on artificial speed limits and the good will of drivers to obey traffic laws.
Automobile design that Increases (or decreases) visibility effects the chances of someone getting hit in the first place.
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Old 04-23-22, 08:54 AM
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One right turning trucks - that's been an issue forever. My best friend's dad told us when we were 12 that if we ever saw the side of a right turning truck in front of us we were about to die. Nearly half a century later, I saw that and lived because I had an angel in the form of a passenger who saw me and yelled. I knew my time had come and was in that weird space I've read about of people about to die. There was no sound there. But suddenly, the road opened up and I slipped by.
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Old 04-23-22, 09:06 AM
  #71  
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I contrast, oh, for example a late 1980s Saab with a modern car. The Saab had secondary controls (lights, HVAC, radio, etc.) that fell readily to hand, with intuitive operation and tactile distinction. It was easy to operate everything without taking your eyes off the road ahead. Some modern cars make you punch through several touch screens just to adjust the air conditioner or radio volume.
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Old 04-23-22, 09:19 AM
  #72  
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Pretty straightforward to transform the USA into Netherlands or Denmark: We just need becomes a small, fairly flat, high-population-density country with a temperate climate that imports its energy and vehicles rather than employing millions of citizens in country to provide those things. Then we build bike paths.
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Old 04-23-22, 10:46 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney
One right turning trucks - that's been an issue forever. My best friend's dad told us when we were 12 that if we ever saw the side of a right turning truck in front of us we were about to die. Nearly half a century later, I saw that and lived because I had an angel in the form of a passenger who saw me and yelled. I knew my time had come and was in that weird space I've read about of people about to die. There was no sound there. But suddenly, the road opened up and I slipped by.
Most of these right turning accidents are cyclist fault and not the truck drivers fault...This happens when a cyclist approaches from behind and is trying to squeeze their way along the truck and they end up putting themselves in a trucks blind spot, just as the truck is about to make a right turn....What a cyclist should to do is stay behind the truck and not ride along it when going through intersections...Slow down, stay behind and allow the truck to make a turn and then keep on riding.
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Old 04-23-22, 10:48 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by tcs
Pretty straightforward to transform the USA into Netherlands or Denmark: We just need becomes a small, fairly flat, high-population-density country with a temperate climate that imports its energy and vehicles rather than employing millions of citizens in country to provide those things. Then we build bike paths.
It's a complete fantasy to expect North America to become like Netherlands.
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Old 04-23-22, 10:52 AM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta
Automobile design that Increases (or decreases) visibility effects the chances of someone getting hit in the first place.
Putting away the cell phone and stopping to fiddle around with infotainment systems would go a long way in preventing accidents.
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