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lower back pain after 90min of riding, how to get rid of it/improve?

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lower back pain after 90min of riding, how to get rid of it/improve?

Old 05-27-22, 05:40 AM
  #26  
PeteHski
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Originally Posted by razorjack
So my question is, on which part of my body to focus now? what to stretch? is it mainly because of short hip flexors (this I know), other specific stretches? (i try to stretch most of my body, but it's not regular routine :/ )
and about core strength? (also i know about muscle balance - not too excercise front or back for example, without sstrengthening the other side)
Focus on all of it! Don't try to target specific muscles. Any general core conditioning program should be a good start. Squats, lunges, planks, back extensions, bridges etc. Kettlebell swings and lifts are all good too. Presuming you are not already doing this kind of routine 2 or 3 times a week, you will likely see some big benefits.

Benefits of stretching are more ambiguous. Tends to be more of a personal thing. Some people feel much better for regular stretching, others find it a complete waste of time. I would say give it a try - maybe via a beginner yoga routine. Not really my thing though. I've tried it several times and didn't really see any benefits. Although I still do a few basic stretches fairly regularly.
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Old 05-27-22, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by razorjack
Ok, so i didn't add more info before.
-yes i had a bike fit last year, i believe good, person is known in my city and recommended (for sure my saddle is not too high or too far back)
-i ride all the time, maybe a bit less in winter. this year: 4kkm distance, 65km elevation)
-before, some discomfort could appear earlier, so at the end looks like body gets stronger.
-i doubt i pull my pedals on such long climbs (i try to keep it at 80%FTP)
-mine standard (weekdays) rides are shorter - 2-3h, with 10-20min climbs.

I belive it's connected with hip flexors (Psoas?) - I stretch them (sitting work, sitting on a bike, bad bad bad ) - maybe not enough?
that's why I ask about other muscles, which i could train/make stronger to support my body.
Wear a heart rate monitor and make sure you avoid rapid increase / drop in heart during the entire ride. Muscle fatigue, pain, etc, is strongly linked to allowing your heart rate to rise and fall too rapidly. It means the muscles are starved of oxygen at some point and it's oxygen you need to avoid accumulation of lactic acid on your core muscles. The core muscles is the source of the lower back pain.

Another cause of lower back pain is poor lower back posture on the bike. The lower back should be arched slightly upward, not arched down. If your lower back is arched down, you're putting more load on your core muscles and can cause accumulation of lactic acid. If you're having a hard time arching your lower back upward, reducing stem length will help.

And finally, start getting used to spinning higher cadence with smaller gears.

I had exactly the same lower back problem as you did for two years. We also deal with similar circumstance, seating long periods at work. What solved it for me is started monitoring my heart rate and avoid heart rate spikes and improved my lower back posture. I tried a lot of things like stretching, core muscle strengthening workouts on the gym. They did not solve the problem entirely.

If you're riding regularly and doing climbs, you're already working out your core muscles already. The problem with off-bike core strengthening exercises is you may need recovery periods for it and can mean no riding or at least an easy ride without any climbing.
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Old 05-27-22, 03:21 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by koala logs

If you're riding regularly and doing climbs, you're already working out your core muscles already. The problem with off-bike core strengthening exercises is you may need recovery periods for it and can mean no riding or at least an easy ride without any climbing.
I find it more efficient to do core work off the bike. Climbing helps, but I find that it requires far more recovery time for an equivalent core workout. I do a lot of climbing in my training anyway, but I still find off-bike core work helps. Nothing too challenging, just 20 mins x 2 sessions per week. To get the same effect (in terms of core strength) just climbing on the bike would require several hours of effort and a lot more cardio recovery.
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Old 05-27-22, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
Deadlifts, followed by deadlifts in a resistance program focused on deadlifts.

you forgot milk.


Deadlifts done incorrectly will most likely add to your back pain.



Ask me how I know.
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Old 05-27-22, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by bampilot06
you forgot milk.


Deadlifts done incorrectly will most likely add to your back pain.



Ask me how I know.
No need. Everyone, with the possible exception of my wife whose form, like her other attributes, is perfect, has had a deadlifting misadventure. Not all of my squats have been non-destructive either.
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Old 05-28-22, 09:34 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
I find it more efficient to do core work off the bike. Climbing helps, but I find that it requires far more recovery time for an equivalent core workout. I do a lot of climbing in my training anyway, but I still find off-bike core work helps. Nothing too challenging, just 20 mins x 2 sessions per week. To get the same effect (in terms of core strength) just climbing on the bike would require several hours of effort and a lot more cardio recovery.
I used to off bike core workouts. Until I made some adjustments to my fit and riding posture and found it no longer necessary. Climbing frequently was sufficient.

What those adjustments were, I went from balance to KOPS seat adjustment. KOPS is known for being more comfortable to use if you're climbing frequently. I also tilted the saddle nose down -5 degrees to rotate my pelvis a little bit forward to improve comfort on climbing. And then I also replaced stem with much shorter one so I can ride with my lower back arched slightly upward with ease.

One might expect moving the saddle forward and tilting it down would increase pressure on my hands. However, reducing reach to help arch my lower back upward, made up for it and reduced pressure on my hands overall. More importantly, these adjustments significantly reduced load on the core muscles whether you're climbing or doing easy recovery rides on the flats.
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Old 05-28-22, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey
I would look first at fit...
I agree fully. And even just little changes can make a big difference with Back Pain. Just do some simple experiments. Raise your bars 2cm, Lower your seat 2cm, move your seat forward 1cm, then give it a try. You can mark your current settings to get back to them if needed. Even if your bike has been professionally fitted give these things a try. Back Pain is a BUGGER!!!
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Old 05-29-22, 04:16 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by koala logs
I used to off bike core workouts. Until I made some adjustments to my fit and riding posture and found it no longer necessary. Climbing frequently was sufficient.

What those adjustments were, I went from balance to KOPS seat adjustment. KOPS is known for being more comfortable to use if you're climbing frequently. I also tilted the saddle nose down -5 degrees to rotate my pelvis a little bit forward to improve comfort on climbing. And then I also replaced stem with much shorter one so I can ride with my lower back arched slightly upward with ease.

One might expect moving the saddle forward and tilting it down would increase pressure on my hands. However, reducing reach to help arch my lower back upward, made up for it and reduced pressure on my hands overall. More importantly, these adjustments significantly reduced load on the core muscles whether you're climbing or doing easy recovery rides on the flats.
All n=1 experience of course. My n=1 experience is that I don't need to make ANY fit adjustments for extended climbing. I use a fair amount of saddle setback (well behind KOPS reference) for endurance riding. I have my saddle at 0 degrees. As for reach I need the bars far enough forward not to risk knee strikes when climbing steep gradients out of the saddle. A "normal" stem/reach setup for my size is fine, but if I went much shorter on the stem I could be in trouble on a 20%+ climb. Looking at the pros on the Giro climbing stages, I noticed most of them are using zero-offset seatposts (seems to be a recent trend in general, not just climbing). Saddle tilt depends a LOT on the specific saddle model. Mine for example (Fizik Tempo Argo) has a pronounced kick-up on the tail which helps a fair bit when climbing. Tilting this saddle 5 deg nose down would make it extreme.

I also have a Kickr Bike, so I can freely experiment with bike setup on the fly and have done extensively. Since I do a lot of alpine climbing I have tried all the usual setup tricks you mention, but they just don't do anything for me. I feel fine in my normal position. In actual fact my normal position feels better on a 5-6% gradient than it does on the flat. Since I also regularly train my core off the bike (especially over the winter when riding less), as I said earlier, it makes bike fit in general less critical.
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Old 05-29-22, 10:34 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
All n=1 experience of course. My n=1 experience is that I don't need to make ANY fit adjustments for extended climbing. I use a fair amount of saddle setback (well behind KOPS reference) for endurance riding. I have my saddle at 0 degrees. As for reach I need the bars far enough forward not to risk knee strikes when climbing steep gradients out of the saddle. A "normal" stem/reach setup for my size is fine, but if I went much shorter on the stem I could be in trouble on a 20%+ climb. Looking at the pros on the Giro climbing stages, I noticed most of them are using zero-offset seatposts (seems to be a recent trend in general, not just climbing). Saddle tilt depends a LOT on the specific saddle model. Mine for example (Fizik Tempo Argo) has a pronounced kick-up on the tail which helps a fair bit when climbing. Tilting this saddle 5 deg nose down would make it extreme.

I also have a Kickr Bike, so I can freely experiment with bike setup on the fly and have done extensively. Since I do a lot of alpine climbing I have tried all the usual setup tricks you mention, but they just don't do anything for me. I feel fine in my normal position. In actual fact my normal position feels better on a 5-6% gradient than it does on the flat. Since I also regularly train my core off the bike (especially over the winter when riding less), as I said earlier, it makes bike fit in general less critical.
What causes pain in the core muscles is too much load on the core muscles. Of course, you can train to increase core muscle strength to endure higher loads. But you can also tweak the fit to reduce load on the core muscles. Both are valid options.

Perhaps, I didn't say it clearly enough that I ended up using the same setup for both long rides in the flats and also for long climbs. I do believe that KOPS isn't for everyone. I didn't like it at first too. It requires certain posture and certain pedaling technique and among other things. If you get a few things off, you may even get worse with KOPS.

I did reduce reach while also considering pedaling out of the saddle. I left just enough clearance so my knees don't hit the handlebar when pedaling out of saddle and also while going round a bend in the road. I'm aware of the danger of not having your knees clear the handlebar especially when you need to get off the saddle quickly to soak up some bumpy section.
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Old 05-29-22, 11:29 AM
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Psoas....check the on bike test to see if the psoas muscles are causing the lower back pain when riding.


https://lwcoaching.com/strengthening-the-psoas-muscle/
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Old 05-29-22, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by koala logs
What causes pain in the core muscles is too much load on the core muscles. Of course, you can train to increase core muscle strength to endure higher loads. But you can also tweak the fit to reduce load on the core muscles. Both are valid options.
I suppose my point was simply to make sure you don't have a weak core as a basic starting point. Then you can blame the fit if you still have lower back pain.
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Old 05-29-22, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
I suppose my point was simply to make sure you don't have a weak core as a basic starting point. Then you can blame the fit if you still have lower back pain.
I prefer to blame fit right away!
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Old 06-06-22, 03:06 AM
  #38  
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thanks for advices ! so I'm looking for info about particular excercises, I see deadlift quite often, any other specific ?
strengthening hip-flexors? (psoas) but also stretching (i'm stretching them).

my saddle is almost max forward and seatpost with zero offset - I guess because not stretched psoas (and my position for years on MTB)

i don't want to change position of my handlebar now, as i think it's ok for my riding (i can do rides 150-200km, with that exception of doing >1-1.5h climbs nonstop).
I tried to ride with my hands on Tops - so it shorten my bike, but i didn't like it at all, i'm too straight, I feel like on a city bike and i cannot generate power.

Last edited by razorjack; 06-07-22 at 06:56 AM.
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Old 06-06-22, 06:04 AM
  #39  
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If you have lower back pain it means you did too much too early in the season before you were in shape for it. Take a week off and do walking instead of biking, then ease back into the cycling with easy rides for a few weeks before you do anything intense again.
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Old 06-07-22, 06:01 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by razorjack
thanks for advices ! so I'm looking for info about particular excercises, I see deadlift quite often, any other specific ?
strengthening hip-flexors? (psoas) but also stretching (i'm stretching them).

my saddle is almost max forward and seatpost with zero offset - I guess because not stretched psoas (and my position for years on MTB)
Just Google core exercises and go from there. Don't focus on just one specific exercise. Squats, lunges, hip bridges, back extensions and planks are just a few examples of the kind of exercises you should be doing regularly. Kettlebell swings and deadlifts are good too. Variety is what you want, not just single repetitive moves.
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Old 06-07-22, 11:44 AM
  #41  
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Simple

1) Get fitted to your bike
2) Stretch before and after
3) Ride more
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Old 06-07-22, 08:10 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Symox
1) Get fitted to your bike
2) Stretch before and after
3) Ride more
Stretching after a ride may be a bad thing. It can cause muscle tearing and cramping as I have experienced. Stretching before is OK, I do it all the time.

I totally agree about fit as first priority.
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Old 06-07-22, 08:43 PM
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I'm a fan of taking a hard look at lowering the saddle. If your hips are rocking, low back pain can come on quickly. Conventional wisdom says too low a saddle stresses the knees, so you're looking for a sweet spot between low back pain and knee pain.
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Old 06-07-22, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by downtube42
I'm a fan of taking a hard look at lowering the saddle. If your hips are rocking, low back pain can come on quickly. Conventional wisdom says too low a saddle stresses the knees, so you're looking for a sweet spot between low back pain and knee pain.
What I found when saddle is too low, I get some knee pain for a while but the pain goes away eventually. If train further in this setting, it gets easier, and I make the same progress as I did with correct saddle height.

If the saddle is too high, I get pain at the back of legs under the knees but this pain lingers and gets worse. The pain doesn't go away until I lowered the saddle enough.

Better to err on the side of too low saddle than too high. The compromises for having too saddle is far less and even possibly negligible unless you have set it far too low.
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Old 08-17-22, 10:19 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by koala logs
Wear a heart rate monitor and make sure you avoid rapid increase / drop in heart during the entire ride. Muscle fatigue, pain, etc, is strongly linked to allowing your heart rate to rise and fall too rapidly. It means the muscles are starved of oxygen at some point and it's oxygen you need to avoid accumulation of lactic acid on your core muscles. The core muscles is the source of the lower back pain.

Another cause of lower back pain is poor lower back posture on the bike. The lower back should be arched slightly upward, not arched down. If your lower back is arched down, you're putting more load on your core muscles and can cause accumulation of lactic acid. If you're having a hard time arching your lower back upward, reducing stem length will help.

And finally, start getting used to spinning higher cadence with smaller gears.

I had exactly the same lower back problem as you did for two years. We also deal with similar circumstance, seating long periods at work. What solved it for me is started monitoring my heart rate and avoid heart rate spikes and improved my lower back posture. I tried a lot of things like stretching, core muscle strengthening workouts on the gym. They did not solve the problem entirely.

If you're riding regularly and doing climbs, you're already working out your core muscles already. The problem with off-bike core strengthening exercises is you may need recovery periods for it and can mean no riding or at least an easy ride without any climbing.
hey ! thanks for advices... haha it sounds 'easy' with HR (I wear HR strap and i have power meter), but the whole point of riding a bike is to GO HARD
so hitting 100%HR at the end of 10-15 mins climb is what I like (if legs are fresh).
but then, short climbs are too short to experience back pain. It happens on hard >20 min climbs - it's diffcult to keep high cadence on 1h ~8-12% climb
and yes, i can try to go slower (and also standing - which gives some relieve) on easier climbs - but this is not a point in climbs
probably my back is arching down - tight hip flexors?

I'll focus on stretching and training core muscles like all you recommended (deadlift, kettlebell swing, some other core related - like side planks with some movements etc.)
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Old 08-17-22, 10:20 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by razorjack
hey ! thanks for advices... haha it sounds 'easy' with HR (I wear HR strap and i have power meter), but the whole point of riding a bike is to GO HARD
so hitting 100%HR at the end of 10-15 mins climb is what I like (if legs are fresh).
but then, short climbs are too short to experience back pain. It happens on hard >20 min climbs - it's diffcult to keep high cadence on 1h ~8-12% climb
and yes, i can try to go slower (and also standing - which gives some relieve) on easier climbs - but this is not a point in climbs
probably my back is arching down - tight hip flexors?

I'll focus on stretching and training core muscles like all you recommended (deadlift, kettlebell swing, some other core related - like side planks with some movements etc.)
I didn't say a word about riding slower or avoid reaching 100% HR.
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Old 08-18-22, 06:53 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by razorjack
hey ! thanks for advices... haha it sounds 'easy' with HR (I wear HR strap and i have power meter), but the whole point of riding a bike is to GO HARD
so hitting 100%HR at the end of 10-15 mins climb is what I like (if legs are fresh).
but then, short climbs are too short to experience back pain. It happens on hard >20 min climbs - it's diffcult to keep high cadence on 1h ~8-12% climb
and yes, i can try to go slower (and also standing - which gives some relieve) on easier climbs - but this is not a point in climbs
probably my back is arching down - tight hip flexors?

I'll focus on stretching and training core muscles like all you recommended (deadlift, kettlebell swing, some other core related - like side planks with some movements etc.)
Two things can be at cause :

1) Your bike (improper fitt, size, bike geometry too aggressive for you, etc.)
2) Your body (improper position, not enough flexibility, being bent too much for too long, etc.)

If you already cleared the first one out of the list of possibilities, I'd work on your flexibility by stretching and training core muscles.

For the fact that you experience pain on hard climbs, is it a discomfort or is it pain? I don't believe it's abnormal to feel pain at some point. When climbing, your body is bent more than when you're riding on flat surface and for a longer period of time. You're struggling with your breath, you're in and out of the saddle often, you wiggle, etc. All of this can result in discomfort after such extensive effort.
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Old 08-18-22, 07:08 AM
  #48  
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Am I the only one who finds lack of flexibility a problematic explanation for pain which comes on only after 90 min (!) of successfully holding a difficult position? I mean, we are given very few facts, and sure, anything might help, but stretching is not the first thing I'd try.
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Old 08-18-22, 08:15 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha
Am I the only one who finds lack of flexibility a problematic explanation for pain which comes on only after 90 min (!) of successfully holding a difficult position? I mean, we are given very few facts, and sure, anything might help, but stretching is not the first thing I'd try.
You're probably right. Stretching the lower back can make things worse. Probably the best immediate sore lower back fix is getting massaged by someone.

Ironically, inflexibility can be an asset if done properly through training in a certain posture by allowing the spine to support upper body weight instead of the core muscles. Sore core muscles is the main cause of lower back pain. Allocating some of the workload to the spine helps reduce core workload and eventually avoid lower back pain.

I've been doing it in centuries without any problems. I even did one without stopping, not even for a pee break. No back stretches either and my lower back is still in great shape, no soreness, no pain after the ride.
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Old 08-18-22, 10:02 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by koala logs
You're probably right. Stretching the lower back can make things worse. Probably the best immediate sore lower back fix is getting massaged by someone.

Ironically, inflexibility can be an asset if done properly through training in a certain posture by allowing the spine to support upper body weight instead of the core muscles. Sore core muscles is the main cause of lower back pain. Allocating some of the workload to the spine helps reduce core workload and eventually avoid lower back pain.

I've been doing it in centuries without any problems. I even did one without stopping, not even for a pee break. No back stretches either and my lower back is still in great shape, no soreness, no pain after the ride.
Waiting for the doctors to comment how bones work without muscles.
Edited for clarity: How can bones work without muscles?

Last edited by Jack Tone; 08-18-22 at 10:13 AM.
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