Mystery bike with cracked head tube
#1
Señor Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 895
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 284 Post(s)
Liked 296 Times
in
149 Posts
Mystery bike with cracked head tube
I noticed this for sale locally and, while some of the parts seem nice, I couldn't get past the cracked head tube.
Now, looking a bit closer, I'm curious about the bike manufacturer. Specifically, the drilled out head lugs is probably a give away to the well-informed, but I don't recognize it.
It looks relatively upscale with the lack of braze-ons and sloped fork crown, chrome socks, etc. The rear dropout appears stamped, so I'd not call this a top tier frame.
The seat-stay wrap around the seat lug screams English builder to me, but doesn't quite look like Falcon to me. Maybe something from Nishiki?
I haven't bothered to contact seller and don't really have any plans to, so all the info is what I can glean from the ad photos (link). I've cropped and enlarged the frame details from those pics.
Any thoughts?
Now, looking a bit closer, I'm curious about the bike manufacturer. Specifically, the drilled out head lugs is probably a give away to the well-informed, but I don't recognize it.
It looks relatively upscale with the lack of braze-ons and sloped fork crown, chrome socks, etc. The rear dropout appears stamped, so I'd not call this a top tier frame.
The seat-stay wrap around the seat lug screams English builder to me, but doesn't quite look like Falcon to me. Maybe something from Nishiki?
I haven't bothered to contact seller and don't really have any plans to, so all the info is what I can glean from the ad photos (link). I've cropped and enlarged the frame details from those pics.
Any thoughts?
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bastrop Texas
Posts: 4,475
Bikes: Univega, Peu P6, Peu PR-10, Ted Williams, Peu UO-8, Peu UO-18 Mixte, Peu Dolomites
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 961 Post(s)
Liked 1,628 Times
in
1,044 Posts
I would think its value is only in its components. The frame is worth nothing till fixed.
__________________
No matter where you're at... There you are... Δf:=f(1/2)-f(-1/2)
No matter where you're at... There you are... Δf:=f(1/2)-f(-1/2)
Likes For zandoval:
#3
Bike Butcher of Portland
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,634
Bikes: It's complicated.
Mentioned: 1299 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4678 Post(s)
Liked 5,795 Times
in
2,281 Posts
That'll buff out.
__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
Likes For gugie:
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,053
Bikes: Gunnar, Shogun, Concorde, F Moser, Pete Tansley, Rocky Mtn, Diamant, Krapf, Marin, Avanti, Winora, Emmelle, Ken Evans
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 275 Post(s)
Liked 417 Times
in
218 Posts
I'd get it for the parts if it was cheap. Big fan of stems like that. Nice 26mm ones are kinda rare and a big fit improvement for many people/bikes. Preferable to a technomic imo.
Likes For Soody:
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 14,260
Mentioned: 415 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3810 Post(s)
Liked 3,336 Times
in
2,176 Posts
-----
dropouts are Campag 1060 so that rules out Nishiki
agree that combination of crown and seat stay treatment suggests Britain
this can sometimes also indicate another anglophone land
domed stay ends are also suggestive of Britain
chainstay stop detail may help one of our detectives
Bob Jackson is one of several Brit marques who made fairly extensive use of these frame ends
they are also the proprietors of the JRJ and Merlin (steel) marques
lug pattern is a longpoint version of the Prugnat 62/d, the lower head lug may be a 62/d which has been lengthened
date appears clearly mid to late sixties
unfortunately we have no view of shell
MauriceMoss is sure to see much more upon the occasion of his next drop-in
-----
dropouts are Campag 1060 so that rules out Nishiki
agree that combination of crown and seat stay treatment suggests Britain
this can sometimes also indicate another anglophone land
domed stay ends are also suggestive of Britain
chainstay stop detail may help one of our detectives
Bob Jackson is one of several Brit marques who made fairly extensive use of these frame ends
they are also the proprietors of the JRJ and Merlin (steel) marques
lug pattern is a longpoint version of the Prugnat 62/d, the lower head lug may be a 62/d which has been lengthened
date appears clearly mid to late sixties
unfortunately we have no view of shell
MauriceMoss is sure to see much more upon the occasion of his next drop-in
-----
Last edited by juvela; 11-17-22 at 07:07 PM. Reason: addition
Likes For juvela:
#6
www.theheadbadge.com
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,513
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2422 Post(s)
Liked 4,390 Times
in
2,092 Posts
With that countersunk pattern in the lugs and the location of the crack, what about the possibility of it being a novice framebuilder's custom frame? It would explain the crack; they may have cooked the top headlug in the process.
It's obvious there was some tension in the frame seeing as the top of the tube pulled back too. Perhaps the mitering was slightly off and the builder forced the HT into position and brazed it in under tension?
-Kurt
It's obvious there was some tension in the frame seeing as the top of the tube pulled back too. Perhaps the mitering was slightly off and the builder forced the HT into position and brazed it in under tension?
-Kurt
Likes For cudak888:
#7
Thrifty Bill
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Mountains of Western NC
Posts: 23,524
Bikes: 86 Katakura Silk, 87 Prologue X2, 88 Cimarron LE, 1975 Sekai 4000 Professional, 73 Paramount, plus more
Mentioned: 96 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1236 Post(s)
Liked 964 Times
in
628 Posts
When I see a ruined frame, I just value at the two best parts on the bike. So if it is priced at that level or below, I'm in. Higher than that, I let someone else buy it. I already have enough parts.
Likes For wrk101:
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,515
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3241 Post(s)
Liked 2,512 Times
in
1,510 Posts
Could be a stuck stem gone bad. Heat applied to the head tube and the stem wouldn't budge. Look at the black crud on both headset ends. Might be burned grease/lube. That's a shame.
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,515
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3241 Post(s)
Liked 2,512 Times
in
1,510 Posts
Cant make out the word on the front brake caliper. SRAX, STAX, SPAX? There is a brake caliper listed on Velobase as Astra.
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 14,260
Mentioned: 415 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3810 Post(s)
Liked 3,336 Times
in
2,176 Posts
interesting idea there!
another possible cause for the presence of the black crud could be that the assembler lubricated the head cups when pressing them it and this is just a bit of grease which has collected dirt in the time since the assembly.
[have no horse in the race]
-----
#11
Bike Butcher of Portland
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,634
Bikes: It's complicated.
Mentioned: 1299 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4678 Post(s)
Liked 5,795 Times
in
2,281 Posts
It's possible some idjit tried this, but highly doubtful compared to other explanations.
__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
Likes For gugie:
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,448
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 874 Post(s)
Liked 2,287 Times
in
1,278 Posts
I'm a parts guy with a build usually in process so I look for deals on stuff like this . If reasonable, I would consider it for parts .
Likes For Kabuki12:
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 23,223
Mentioned: 654 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4722 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3,036 Times
in
1,874 Posts
Last edited by T-Mar; 11-18-22 at 09:55 AM. Reason: added image
Likes For T-Mar:
#14
Señor Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 895
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 284 Post(s)
Liked 296 Times
in
149 Posts
FD looks to be Campy NR? Not sure about the shifters.
Regardless, I wasn't trying to ID based on the parts since who knows what's original (if anything).
Thanks for the comments so far, but it looks like we're still far from an identity. No matter, as it's just an idle exercise of curiosity for me.
#15
Stop reading my posts!
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 12,580
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1443 Post(s)
Liked 1,061 Times
in
786 Posts
There were a couple West Coast custom builders who used the drilling of holes in similar fashion to these headlugs ( I recall that early Bruce Gordons sometimes had them, see a couple examples below) but nothing else here looks like it's of the same high-zoot quality as BG's work or someone "in that league".
I suspect it's the work of an amateur who mimicked BG's style but also probably over-heated the head tube....too bad!
I suspect it's the work of an amateur who mimicked BG's style but also probably over-heated the head tube....too bad!
Likes For unworthy1:
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,515
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3241 Post(s)
Liked 2,512 Times
in
1,510 Posts
What about the rear chainstay shifter cable guides? Is that a ferrel and a hump it sits on or something brazed on as a cable stop?
Edit: It appears to be a loop, a ferrel and some kind of stop the ferrel fits in.
Edit: It appears to be a loop, a ferrel and some kind of stop the ferrel fits in.
Last edited by seypat; 11-18-22 at 12:19 PM.
#17
Bianchi Goddess
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Shady Pines Retirement Fort Wayne, In
Posts: 27,858
Bikes: Too many to list here check my signature.
Mentioned: 192 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2930 Post(s)
Liked 2,923 Times
in
1,491 Posts
I never really understood the Technomic stem. I have several of these and while they can be a PIA to get on the bars they give me a very comfy riding position
__________________
“One morning you wake up, the girl is gone, the bikes are gone, all that's left behind is a pair of old tires and a tube of tubular glue, all squeezed out"
Sugar "Kane" Kowalczyk
“One morning you wake up, the girl is gone, the bikes are gone, all that's left behind is a pair of old tires and a tube of tubular glue, all squeezed out"
Sugar "Kane" Kowalczyk
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 14,260
Mentioned: 415 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3810 Post(s)
Liked 3,336 Times
in
2,176 Posts
frame will exhibit one other braze-on: a no-slide pibb on the downtube
-----
Likes For juvela:
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 14,260
Mentioned: 415 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3810 Post(s)
Liked 3,336 Times
in
2,176 Posts
Likes For juvela:
#23
Bike Butcher of Portland
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,634
Bikes: It's complicated.
Mentioned: 1299 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4678 Post(s)
Liked 5,795 Times
in
2,281 Posts
Frame could be fixed. Honestly!
@scarlson might want to chime in, but hack out the head tube, file it nicely and fillet braze in a new one, it’d be a bilaminate construction.
Not worth paying someone to do it, but it could be done.
Not worth paying someone to do it, but it could be done.
__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
Likes For gugie:
#24
www.theheadbadge.com
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,513
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2422 Post(s)
Liked 4,390 Times
in
2,092 Posts
@scarlson might want to chime in, but hack out the head tube, file it nicely and fillet braze in a new one, it’d be a bilaminate construction.
Not worth paying someone to do it, but it could be done.
Not worth paying someone to do it, but it could be done.
-Kurt
#25
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Medford MA
Posts: 2,089
Bikes: Ron Cooper touring, 1959 Jack Taylor 650b ladyback touring tandem, Vitus 979, Joe Bell painted Claud Butler Dalesman, Colin Laing curved tube tandem, heavily-Dilberted 1982 Trek 6xx, René Herse tandem
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 964 Post(s)
Liked 1,451 Times
in
723 Posts
@scarlson might want to chime in, but hack out the head tube, file it nicely and fillet braze in a new one, it’d be a bilaminate construction.
Not worth paying someone to do it, but it could be done.
Not worth paying someone to do it, but it could be done.
I don't know if we can say that for sure. The bike was likely ridden with the crack, and I'm assuming the headset was adjusted right for the headtube before it broke. The fork would want to move front to back and side to side during riding. The two halves of the head tube would be getting wedged all over as the balls try to climb out of their races in response to bike and rider's weight, brakes, bumps, etc. In my view we are lucky they are still as aligned as they appear to be.
__________________
Owner & co-founder, Cycles René Hubris. Unfortunately attaching questionable braze-ons to perfectly good frames since about 2015. With style.
Owner & co-founder, Cycles René Hubris. Unfortunately attaching questionable braze-ons to perfectly good frames since about 2015. With style.