whitecat

See, that is what I am talking about. I am talking about self defense if someone tries to endanger me, be it with a veichle, some kind of weapon or whatever it is.

You react like there is something wrong with self defense. What are we supposed to curl up on the sidewalk and wait until somebody either leaves or kills us?

BTw, and you were the first to say so, no weapons needed.I have my own hands and that is enough.

livedarklions

OK, Superman. You're actually proposing punching cars?

If someone is actually trying to kill me with their car, I fail to see how my fists are going to be useful. Self-defense in that context can only mean either deadly force or evasion. I'm not carrying the means to defend violently against the driver of a moving vehicle, so evasion is my only rational defense.

Pretty sure you have no idea what you're talking about. These may be the stupidest posts I've ever seen.

Koyote

Okay, Rambo. Take a deep breath and calm down.

Note that the thread is decidedly not about motorists "attacking" cyclists. It is about harassment, such as needless honking of horns, yelling, etc. A moment's thought will reveal the logistical problems with your approach: how do you stop the moving vehicle, how do you extract the motorist, what if the motorist is bigger/stronger/more heavily armed than you?

Then there are the legal ramifications, such as the fact that physically assaulting a person, because he honked at you or yelled at you, is called assault and battery and will get you arrested.

Also consider the proportionality of your response. Meeting a horn blast or a shouted insult with physical violence is anti-social behavior. If you really operate this way in the real world, you need professional help, and I'm probably not the first to recommend it. If, as I suspect, you're just an internet blowhard who's trying to overcompensate for other inadequacies, well, then you still need help.

Hypno Toad : Back on-topic. I have no great advice, other than that education and exposure seem to help. When someone honks or yells or just cuts me off, I will - if it's possible - try to talk to the person. I'll ask if I did something wrong, if I was in their way, etc. Usually a motorist will be sheepish. Then I'll try to educate.

The other day, on one of my regular rides, a motorist endangered me without being malicious - he was just in a hurry and inconsiderate. I caught up, we talked, I explained how he could have handled it more safely for both of us, and that was that - a good interaction. It doesn't work often, but sometimes it does.

The key is to educate the local drivers on a larger scale: signage about giving cyclists 3-4 feet clearance (if MN has such a law - many states do), public events, etc.

bpcyclist

Just remember, should you decide to go after a drive you feel has wronged you, that you actually have no idea of their state of mind. As I have said before, that driver may have just been diagnosed with terminal lung cancer or fired or had their spouse leave with the kids for someone else. You just don't know. Caution is required. You have zero idea what is happening with that person. Probably wise to just let it go, or, if a crime was committed, allow the people who enforce laws to manage it. They are probably better at dealing with slimeballs than you are, since they do it for a living.

dedhed

I pretty much ignore it now days because this:
https://www.google.com/search?q=road...hrome&ie=UTF-8

TheDudeIsHere

It amazes me how many posters claim to get harassed on the bike. I myself have gotten far more compliments from passing drivers than any kind of negativity.

I often wonder if these frequent targets are really lousy cyclists who piss off passing drivers, weak looking harassment bait, or just plain ugly.

livedarklions

I'll pass on the trolling, thanks.

I ride a lot, over many different roads and paths, and there's places where I could ride for weeks and not encounter a single unpleasant interaction with drivers. There's other places (e.g., Fitchburg, MA) where I can count on at least a few drivers to act like total jerks. Busy tourist areas will also bring out the worst in drivers, who I suspect are trying to handle traffic with a hangover. These are places where I get "ride on the sidewalk" screamed at me, often while I'm actually moving faster than the traffic.

It's a small minority of drivers who do this, but they seem to flock in some places. I think you're congratulating yourself for riding somewhere where there aren't many of the bad apples. Plus, apparently, you just like to insult people.

Hypno Toad

As a person that rides 5,000 to 6,000 miles per year .... I have a thick skin for stupid people in cars. Honking/yelling gets a wave and/or blowing kisses with big smile and occasionally a loud laugh. That way, when I find out the honking driver is actually a co-working try to say 'hi', I don't have to explain why I gave them the bird.

But some people do have a low threshold for harassment. That's the point of this thread, reference the OP: "I'm interested in this topic from a community advocacy angle. I'm heading up a bike/walk advocacy group in my town and I'm interested to see if there is any success stories about dealing with hostile behavior from people in cars." For clarity, most people ride bikes less frequently and do not feel safe on roads. I'm advocating to make the roads in my town more friendly for the less experienced cyclist.

Digger Goreman

Education and getting everyone on the same page is crucial. Bike drivers and car riders, on an individual basis, subscribe to the As Far Right As Possible archaic "rule". Others, citing the law that insists bikes are vehicles and bound to the road, take the lane. Ignore-ant car operators (just enough to pass the.test) forgot/don't know/don't care/are told by others, one of the above... maybe even that bikes belong on sidewalks.
Add politicos and "law" enforcement. No one pays attention that two vehicles may not travel side by side in the same lane, nor is it enforced. Instead we have unnecessary 3ft laws (how many car ops can measure by eye, or even have a concept, let alone at speed?), magical painted lines of protection (bike lanes) following archaic and wrong AFRAP (and often partial, between lanes/parking spaces) and that often end/meld into motorized right turn lanes. What bike/motor operator really undestands sharrows, "share the road", or Bicycle Priority Lanes? Additionally, Georgia law is so vague as to be useless, if not dangerous: despite classifying bicycles as vehicles with vehicular responsibilities, they then proscribe AFRAP excepting when the bike operator feels safety is an issue (!). That leads to (if followed) extremely unpredictable behavior, unanticipatable by a defensive motor operator, let alone the pill popping, burger gorging, music blaring, screaming at kids/dogs, phone addicts... on a good day.... (*whew*)

Start with a lawyer, trained in bike traffic law: what does it all mean in theory... and then, in practice.

Next, go to the head of traffic policing: ask the same questions. What are the reporting procedures for harrassment and "accidents"?

Last, approach the local/state politicos. Ask what theit intentions are when they voted for these laws, share your notes from lawyers and police, and help them analyze its effectiveness....

Share all with your biking members. Develop individual, and group, strategies for protection and vehicular cooperation.

stevel610 

TheDudeIsHere

Ha ha ha, too sensitive I guess. I guess the funny face touches a nerve with you though most would understand that it is just a silly gesture. Got your chamois bunched up I guess.

But to be honest, I ride the same roads around here than many many cyclists ride. Matter of fact, I have ridden with hundreds of forum members. SEVERAL of which whine on forums about bad drivers and harassment. But to be honest, after having been along on rides with them, I see why they are being harassed on the roads.

So in my experience, there are a whole lot of cyclists that think they are good safe cyclists who do things on the road that encourage harassment. So maybe, just maybe, you could be one of those and you just don't know it.

As far as the funny faces, lighten up man, your're to tight.

I bet most people who get harassed do things that constitute a honk or shout but don't even know it. I've ridden with people who are like this and chose to avoid them. Probably why I don't get harassed on the road riding the very same roads.

I've ridden all over So Calif, Arizona, Mexico and never been harassed. Sorry if you attract trouble but I ride the same roads as many cyclists who constantly whine about harassment, on the same roads, but for some strange reason, I don't get harassed, HMMM!

Hypno Toad

Really, like what? Please help us all out with your wisdom.

TheDudeIsHere

Yeah , no problem. I have been on forum rides with members who complain about harassment but yet continue to cut off cars in traffic, blow through stop signs at good speeds, continue straight from the right side of a right turn lane clearly marked.

These people get honked at then a few seconds later complain that some idiot was harassing them by honking at them.

OK, now go ahead and deny this happens.

Hypno Toad

Nope, no denials. There are people that are poor riders, like there are people that are poor drivers. Like you, I avoid riding with these knuckle-heads.

I avoid all the behaviors you list. I have most often received aggressive honking/shouts/hand gestures for taking the right lane on a 4-lane road without shoulders or bike infrastructure. The story in my OP, I was in the traffic lane to make a left turn.

I've had memorable angry responses from two different employees of my previous city for getting in the the center (thru) lane, since the bike route (shoulder) turns into the right turn only lane. One was an unmarked officer that decided to move on when he saw my GoPro (funny thing, it wasn't working that day); the other was driving a city dump truck and tried using his vehicle to force me out of the lane (that was scary ***** - and one of the reasons I started riding with a GoPro). So based on your behaviors list, you can get harnessed for avoiding the right turn lane to go straight through an intersection.

BTW - I ride with lights, and use hand-signals ... but the 'get off my road' crowd really don't care, they don't like anything in their way.

livedarklions

Read up on the fundamental attribution error. This post is a great example of it.

TheDudeIsHere

I'm not reading anything. I'm posting on a cycling forum. I stated my point and tossed in a little facetious comment at the end in humor. If you're too tight to understand that, then it's your problem. Go read a funny comic strip to lighter up your life man.

livedarklions

I love it when people get all nasty to say "lighten up". It's such an obvious case of dish it out, but can't take it.

TheDudeIsHere

Ah yes, I guess I could have pointed out that my post was not directed at you personally, or your post.

Just that I read so many, and hear so many in person from other cyclists about harassment while many of them don't realize they bring it on themselves.

So ti was not a personal attack on you or your post, I should have made that clear.

One of the last incidents was a couple of friends on a tandem. We were riding on a very open MUP here in California (not a Central Park type at all). I actually happened to be on a tandem as well. At our stop area, we started to chat. One of the topics he brought up was the unsafe idiot driver. I had never ridden with this guy on the road, only MUP and he is a very fast rider. Been riding for years, not a novice on a beach cruiser. Several centuries and double century rider (Triple Crown in Calif.)

So minutes after he whines about bad drivers, harassment, we head off back down the trail. An underpass where there is a family on beach cruisers causing chaos. Little kids that can't make it up the short steep incline at the bottom dismounting. Of course they don't know how to ride, parents should teach them better BUT, a family, little kids, I DON'T WANT TO KILL ANYONE IN AN ACCIDENT THAT CAN SURELY BE AVOIDED ON A BICYCLE. Yes, I may lose .05 of my average speed on my 40 mile ride if I back off but it is better than killing a 5 year old child.

Anyway, I see the chaos and we back off. We are doing about 21 MPH. This dude does not slow down, too concerned about racing in a race that is not official, just friends having fun.

He rolls down the underpass meaning on the tandem, probably hitting about 25 MPH. Heck no, I backed off but he blew through the small crowd and had to swerve at least 2 times to avoid hitting a kid. WOW!

This was the same guy who just got finished complaining about how cars harass him, don't treat him fairly, and pose a danger to him. I had to stop and think, I think it is more him on a bike than the cars if this is his type of behavior on a bike.

So yeah, didn't mean to attack your post, just tired of the cyclists in general who complain about unsafe drivers when it is pretty clear to me that they have poor safe cycling habits that pretty much warrant a little shot here and there, and/or some honking.

You seem to understand what I mean saying you avoid the knuckleheads so you know what I'm talking about! I do believe there are idiots in cars out there that harass cyclists just to be stupid. But the constant complainers, I think there has to be a reason. Like my bud, he seems to have more than one or two complaints so common sense has to tell me that he has earned some of it along the way.

TheDudeIsHere

Ha ha you are so funny! I dished out a little fun with a laughing face and you got your panties into a bunch saying I was insulting.

Koyote

Ha! Good to know I'm not the only person who blows kisses at the *******s.

CAT7RDR

Back on topic:

I like to ride the local canyons particularly on early Sunday mornings to avoid motorists. Unfortunately, Speed Racers also like to buzz these canyons as well. About two months ago I was heading up Carbon Canyon Road in a marked bike lane when a racer decided to do a close pass in his newer Corvette. He hit the gas and drove the bike lane line at 100 mph+. I am sure if he clipped me I would be gone and he would have run. I do not get the mentality of some drivers. Every week there are hit-and-run fatalities of cyclists in SoCal. Crazy bat****, evil people who do not give a damn about risking your life for a cheap laugh.

How to deal with it? Rear and front mounted cameras might be useful to get a license plate#. Even this might be futile. My g/f and I were hit by a drunk driver in Buena Park a few years back. She suffered a compression spinal injury. The asshat's front fascia of his Honda and his license plate were left at the crash scene. Because we were hit from the rear and could not ID the driver, law enforcement would not make an arrest.

Jim from Boston

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hypno Toad

As a person that rides 5,000 to 6,000 miles per year .... I have a thick skin for stupid people in cars. Honking/yelling gets a wave and/or blowing kisses with big smile and occasionally a loud laugh.

That way, when I find out the honking driver is actually a co-working try to say 'hi', I don't have to explain why I gave them the bird.

But some people do have a low threshold for harassment…For clarity, most people ride bikes less frequently and do not feel safe on roads. I'm advocating to make the roads in my town more friendly for the less experienced cyclist.

I have previously posted to this thread: "Anyone been honked at lately??"

Koyote

I had an interesting interaction today. Last week, a motorist inadvertently put me a little danger...I caught up and had a friendly chat with him about how to safely pass a cyclist. Today the same guy passed me - very broadly, and with a friendly wave. Now I've got one more friend out there.

'Course, if I were whitecat , I would've beaten him senseless during our first interaction, and now I'd be in jail and hence unable to make new friends.

CAT7RDR

99% of my interactions with motorists are positive or neutral. I really do not get upset any longer with honking or yelling. It's the intentional or distracted close passes even when in a protected bike lane that is troublesome. Granted, this only happens once in about every 20 hours I am riding. It is normal to go into some kind of Fight, Fright or Flight reaction when your life is endangered.

Glad you had a teachable moment. They are few and far between.

Jim from Boston

Recently, I have posted to this thread: “As a Bike Commuter - What kind of video content would you want to see?"; see especially the link to the second video, "Cyclist Rear Ended at 55mph":