grolby

To be honest the main reason I wish I could get my bars lower, at this point, is wanting to have my hoods underneath everyone else's around me in crits. Would make me feel more confident in tight quarters. Or so I tell myself. Realistically it probably wouldn't help and I've got my stem totally slammed already. I'm even using a Slam That Stem bearing cover. I would need to do something weird to get lower. What kind of annoys me is I'm one of the smallest guys around, but there are lots of guys taller than me with lower bars. Like, WTF are they doing?

topflightpro

I've never noticed a difference in stem stiffness, but I have with bars. I had a pair of FSA K-Wing bars many years ago, and they flexed like crazy in the drops. And I'm not even talking about when sprinting. They just flexed whenever I was in the drops. It was quite noticeable.

And Spec, as to your BB comments, sometimes I think you are being pennywise but pound foolish. The Wheels Mfg. and Praxis adapter BBs are a very good design and probably worth the extra $20.

Also, I've been using a Wheelfs Mfg. PF86 in my Argon for a couple years now, and I've been very happy with it. I opted for the angular contact bearings, which are a slight upgrade over basic steel but much cheaper than ceramic.

Ygduf

they are good enough for sure.

hack

Feeling different doesn't necessarily mean good/bad. I prefer minimal flex. It also means that the ride is much more rough. Is that good or bad? I dunno ...


Maybe more flexy bars would make for a more comfortable ride and in all reality would not have any real negative impact on performance. It's just preference. If you don't dislike the way your bars feel, then there is no need to change them. It's a lot like saddles, what one person likes another may hate.


With that, I assume your FSA and 3T setup is 100% fine.

spectastic

you're probably right about the first part. I do make some bonehead moves on certain things that end up costing me. but I stand by my point on the BSA adapter. why use an expensive adapter when you can very inexpensively convert the frame? and i see absolutely no reason to pay extra for fancy bearings, unless I see something that proves it helps people win races. right now, it's all marketing jargon to me

spectastic

I care about efficiency in lateral stiffness more than I care about comfort. haven't really experienced a road bike that was too uncomfortable or rough.

hack

In the end, it's $20 for a better system, in my opinion.

The GXP/BB24 converter includes bearings and is $60. You can change out the bearings when needed for $20.

A standard BB30 and the hammer in adapters are $40 ($20+$20). Also $20 to change out bearings when needed.

I used BB30 for a few months with the hammer in adapters and had creaking. Hated it. Got the Wheels MFG and have had no creaks for well over a year. Easily worth the $20 to me.

Ygduf

I usually swear by wheelsmfg stuff, but I will say the last set of 1.8mm spacers I bought from them were 2/4 garbage. I ordered 4, and only 2 were cut well enough to fit on the hub splines.

spectastic

to clarify, I'm talking about these. they actually convert the frame. cost only $20 right now, can be pressed in with diy tools (eg. long bolt, nut, two plates, and a wrench), and they don't squeak any more than the wheels mfgs would, and they're pretty much waterproof for the bearings, unless you need to drill a hole to accommodate the shifter cable guides, which is only an issue with the fancier models with internal routing, I think.

I was not referring to the POS plugs that one would put on the two sides of the BB30 bearings. they are no better than the BB30 system, and are probably even worse, because the extra junctions probably aren't very rigid at all.
s-l1600.jpg

topflightpro

IIRC, once you install that adapter, it cannot be removed.

revchuck 

Anything can be removed...with a big enough hammer.

Doge

Kid prefers flex in bars and seat post over frame and complains if it is in the wheels (likes stiff wheels and inflated hard tires).
He rides non-padded seats. A preference. But if you are going to have shock absorption - and not sprinting - I think the cockpit is the place to have it.

shovelhd

Loctite 609 is a retaining compound, which allows removal.

spectastic

that's kind of the point. **** press fit

carpediemracing 

I looked at the 2014 clip you're in (lots in the last lap) and you look pretty low and all that. Also you look reasonably comfortable in close quarters. I'd have chosen to be a bit ahead or behind the rider next to you here and there but overall it's not like you have this huge force field bouncing you away from other riders. And that was 2014 so presumably you're more comfortable now in close quarters stuff.

carpediemracing 

I'm not flexible so there's that. I think that's part of the reason for my forward position, etc. Bad back, always tight hamstrings (but super flexible glutes), blah blah blah. And short legs totally suited for Judo or other "don't fall over" activities.

I generally cannot put on any pants/socks/shoes without sitting down first because it's hard for me to hold, say, my pants with both hands and lean over enough to be able to lift a foot. Forget about shoes or socks. I hold the clothing item with one hand while I'm standing basically upright. This way I can thread one foot into my pants without leaning over. If I had better balance and stronger legs maybe I could do a one legged squat to get the same result.

Hida Yanra

a few bits -
I agree w/ cdr - you look comfortable enough, and riding cx the way you do, I expect that your skills are fine.
Confidence does not equal skill - maybe this is a place to build your self-confidence in the skills you already possess?

I have historically ridden super low in front, sized down on frames, run a -17 130, all that stuff, and spent years getting to the point where I was able to be that flexible & still generate power. (long-term relationship w/ fitter/PT/coach w/ a focus on this stuff).... so I've spent a ton of time being underneath other people's hands in crits - yeah, it's great.
Lots of people set up a low position because it looks good or they *can* ride for 3h like that..... and my guess is that a vast majority of them are |net| losing more power than they gain in aero.
Aero gains come slowly and power losses come quickly.
I did some velodrome testing w/ a powermeter/cda/Crr that resulted in my bringing my position UP by 2 cm - so don't worry about "them", they quite likely have it wrong anyway.

Positionally, it's only worth what you then do with it - and I didn't develop the icy nerve to pull the moves MattM would do on the regular, even when he was a cat4. Position is one thing, doing something with it is totally another.
So yeah, get low, but it's icing on top of the cake - there's a ton of other stuff that is magnitudes higher for results on your your results?

grolby

Yeah, like I said it's realistically not something that would be helpful. To the extent I need to work on my pack skills, it's on not getting shuffled back so quickly. I'm really quite good at moving up in tight spaces. My issue is I get a little too nervous when I'm going backwards, and I find it hard to stop the slide. That, and I could probably do better at knowing when I need to make a little acceleration to hold my spot. It's a thing I feel like I want but in reality I doubt it would do me any good. As you say, I'm plenty low.

grolby

Nailed it on the confidence. As I said to CDR, I'm good moving up through very tight spaces. But I get shuffled back easily when I get shut out of a spot. Indeed, I try not to worry about what other people are doing - I wanted my bars lower earlier this year, got them down, and now I think they're as slammed as I'll ever want them. Realistically I don't think it would be a good idea to go lower for the reasons you mention.

carpediemracing 

You need to "back into the draft".

You can do this by sort of "sticking" to the side of a rider as s/he comes by. So if I'm passing on your right (you're next to the left side of my bars), you can sort of follow the contour of my outline as I roll by. So you'd put your bars next to my bars, then next to my hip, then next to my rear wheel. Keep the gap to me about 3" or so, give or take. Less would be better, you basically want to give zero room for anything/anyone between you and me. You can glance down to your right to check clearance to me as well as to make sure no one is overlapped on my rear to my left (i.e. you're backing into their front wheel).

This will move you into a spot behind me, and anyone on my wheel would be powerless to stop you from doing so unless they were overlapped to my left.

At the same time such a move wouldn't be considered super squirrelly or dangerous because you're not swerving dramatically. It's like tucking in after pulling through in a TTT. I don't think there's a way to legitimately complain about such a move. Super clean, super smooth.

If there was a rider overlapped on my rear wheel to the left then there'd be a bit of a struggle. If you're more than a few inches off my hip then they're going to wedge between you and me. If you're brushing my hip then the rider will have to back off a bit. Realistically the rider backing in (you) will have the position of strength. In a massive, massive race there might be some battling but realistically the rider overlapped to my left will need to back down. Since a skilled rider can take a wheel in just 5-10 seconds (if in close quarters) it's almost always better to give up the wheel temporarily and gain it back.

I do this pretty regularly. I think when I first started here I talked about how it's possible to take a wheel in a few seconds. That's how I do it, and, really, it works literally every time I try. Problem is that it's indefensible so if someone does the same to me I have to give up the spot. I've gotten in push-me-pull-you battles where I take the wheel, he takes the wheel back 15-20 seconds later, I take it back, etc.

grolby

Thanks for the suggestion! I'll work on that.

shovelhd

Back into the draft. That's the best description I've ever heard of that technique, one I used constantly. It's also good for falling back into the front of the field when the break is caught, and for when the the argy bargy gets cranked up in the last few laps. If someone swipes your wheel it helps you steal one back.

shovelhd

Wells Ave. seriously.

carpediemracing 

My book is slowly leaking out into the intrawebs...

happybday29475

+1
I've been waiting years to understand it that well. Thank you.