cheesesandwich

Hi guys, first post. I've got a dilemma:


Which should I go for?

1) 55mm carbon rims + Pillar spokes + Novatec hubs

2) Aforce AL33 + DT Competition spokes + DT350 hubs


The carbon wheel company is from Europe although they don't hide the fact the rims are MIC or Taiwan made with strict QC. While the AL33 is a 33mm deep alu wheel similar to the design of Zipp303 with similar aero test result.

I'm actually quite wary of far east carbon wheels when big brands have had issues with theirs but can't deny the aero advantage, while the AL33 has better components overall. I've been riding HED Ardennes+ LT for years and now looking for an alternative for speed. I can't decide on either, they will come out at about the same price. Your help please.

aplcr0331

Which one looks better?

Or are you losing P/1 Crits by mere seconds?

Go with whichever set makes you stop, turn around and walk back by your bike room and look at your bike again. Dreaming of your next ride up Mt. Kickapoo.

Seriously, get the set that makes you excited about the next days ride.

I will leave “aero” and “yaw angles” for the next posters to talk about.

bpcyclist

What kind of riding do you do? Rim or disc?

cheesesandwich

I don't race at all...lol. Just a weekend warrior but I do like to push myself and go fast. On a rim brake.

tgenec86

Was just at my LBS a few days ago and we got into a discussion about Novatec. Jason had a customer come in with a two year old wheelset with Novatec hubs and he tried for three weeks to find a replacement freehub body (with atrocious customer service to boot), and when he finally did find the part was informed it was no longer made and once stock was gone the hub would be non-repairable so the customer should consider buying two. In short, he didn't say they were low quality, but for a hub to be obsolete after two years? Not encouraging.

Something else to think about is carbon rim braking. The off brand Asian models may look like high zoot brands, but often do not have the same level of technology or the same materials on the brake track. Braking performance on standard carbon is simply not as good as an engineered name brand rim with a textured or different lay-up material on the brake track. The better wheels also dissipate heat better reducing the risk of the rim blowing out on long descents while braking heavily. The wheels you are looking at "might" be designed that way, or they might not. Twenty miles from home, skidding to a stop isn't the time I would want to find out. You also absolutely must use carbon specific pads if you want the rims to last and they are pricey and are not as durable. I have multiple carbon wheelsets and love them, but they are also race specific and for regular training I use aluminum rims. A high quality pair of aluminum rim brake wheels is just as good as a carbon wheelset IMO. They're just not "sexy" to the local club racers which isn't a reason to not use them.

chadtrent

If you are on a rim brake bike I would stay away from carbon wheels. I know there are people who say with the right pads they brake just fine or whatever. That has not been my experience. Especially in the wet. If the rims are carbon with an aluminum brake track then they will probably be okay.

There may be a slight aero advantage to deeper carbon wheels. But unless you are riding as fast and hard as you can all the time I doubt you will see any difference. I am just as fast on my Mavic Aksium aluminum shallow wheels as I am on my Knight 50mm carbon wheels. Which is why I rarely ride the carbon wheels.

Marcus_Ti

Between those exact two...I'd take the AForce/DT build. Novatec hubs are pretty bottom of the cartridge-bearing barrel, the only thing you can really say about them is that they're cartridge bearing....I'm not even sure you can find any documentation about them online.

cheesesandwich

Thanks. I'm leaning more towards the AL33. The carbon wheels can be upgraded to DT swiss but those cheap carbon material still worries me and so far no positive comments. Is a 24h front lacing abit too much? I can only get that although prefer 20h.

chadtrent

You won't notice any difference between the 20 and 24 spoke wheels aside from seeing more spokes. The weight is nothing to worry about. Plus you will get a wheel that is a little stronger and stiffer.

Slightspeed

My Culprt came with Token carbon 55s. They were great riding wheels, except on windy days, then they got pretty scarry. As a race wheel they are probably fine, but if you are out in the open getting passed by big rigs, or in windy areas, be careful. I went to a set of 41mm Reynolds Assault carbons, and the bike is much easier in the wind, and I can't tell any performance difference. I also have a Roubaix with aluminum Reynolds Stratus Elites with about a 1 inch aero profile, and that is my windy day bike. Not familiar with the brands you mentioned, but just to say that rim height does matter out in the real world. Also I wasn't comfortable with rim brakes on carbon rims, so the disc brakes work fine for me on these.

Culprit with 55mm Token carbon rims.

Same bike with Reynolds 41mm carbon Assaults.

Aluminum Reynolds Stratus Elites on my Roubaix.

cheesesandwich

I've got another option. There's an American Classic 420 Aero 3 tubeless wheelset from my local buy/sell market. Seldom used and pictures look as good as new. Nice price at US300 and I do like the deeper rim but few concerns though. Although internal is 19mm which I like, the external rim is just 22mm meaning brake thickness is just 3mm. Thats quite thin compare to other rims. Eventually will wear and cause safety issue? It is also more traditional profile unlike the AL33 toroidal shape, might be a struggle in crosswind. 18/24h spokes same as my current HED, for my new wheels I thought of having stronger build.

I can't get much info about them as reviews are too little although positive. No idea the year and no more in sale, I guess stopped production. Worth getting? I can't post URL yet to show the profile. Guess you have to look it up on their website.

TKJava

I'm not familiar with the wheels your looking at but you say that the carbon set are more "aero", I have to assume that the rim is a deeper section than a typical wheel rim? If this is the case and your a weekend rider who does not race but enjoys the tech on a bike challenges themselves etc I sort of get wanting "aero" wheels. I had a set of wheels that were defective and the company sent me an upgrade. I now have a set of deep dish wheels, they are an aluminum wheel with carbon fairings on them, the Oval concepts 700 series with a 50mm rim. I like the wheels because they were an upgrade to what came with my bike a little lighter a bit better bearings etc.

What I don't like is the way the "aero" rims handle in cross winds. The first time I got hit with a nice breeze coming from the side it moved my bike laterally in an instant. Riding in a charity event the course came around the back of an airport with zero trees and or cover and the wind was intense you had to keep steering diagonally into the breeze to be kept from being blown off the road. Maybe it's me because there are so many folks out there on the deep dish rims but I don't get it. When riding straight at about 20 mph with little to no wind they are great otherwise I prefer my regular rims completely.

P.S. Did I mention that the aero rims look cool?

cheesesandwich

It doesn't have to be super deep but better than HED's 24mm profile. Not saying they are bad. They are very solid pair of wheels and I love them. Just looking for aero alternative

BTW, why does this site get logged out so fast? I have to login again before I could send a new post.

"Fred"

Get the carbon but upgrade the hubs. The layup will be fine on cheap carbon rims.

Wilfred Laurier

I rode a couple years on Novatec hubs. They creaked and popped and skipped and were generally not good. I may have been around 270lbs at the time, so YMMV.

jadocs

#1 sounds like Chinese carbon, nothing wrong with that but just know what you are buying.

cheesesandwich

Here's how it's been going. I decided on the AL33 rim at first, ordered locally but they only have the ceramic wall left for 28h. Not worth the extra cost and looks weird with front machined wall, IMO. Took me some time to decide but went with the carbon rims because I realized I don't have to buy the whole wheels. WIll send to a local wheel builder to be built with the DT350 and spokes. How long do these China carbon rims last? 2-3 years? I guess would be enough before I go back to alloy rims. A bit of a hassle is I have to swap brake pads too if I want to switch to the Ardennes.

Johnk3

The deep carbon rims may cause you some concern on windy days. Aero is great going directly into the wind, but they are really annoying, and sometimes dangerous, with side wind gusts.

Rim brakes don't work well on carbon and require special brake pads. Carbon can be fragile. A pothole that would not faze a well made alloy rim may crack or fracture carbon, leaving it dangerous to use. Frankly I wouldn't ride a cheap Chinese carbon rim out my driveway. Not all carbon is created equal. By the way, good carbon rims weigh about the same as good alloy rims, they just don't need as many spokes. But, that is also their weakness. Carbon has a lifespan; ally does not. I have a set of 40 year old alloy rims that have gone many thousands of miles and as true and strong as ever.

Carbon rims are noisy. I can hear them coming from behind me even without my hearing aids.

Try the White Industries T11 hubs. They are smooth, quiet and come in lots of colors.

For a good compromise of aero and strong and long lasting alloy, look at H Plus Son rims, they have a lot of deep options and they make a high quality product as good as HED.

Phil_gretz

DT240 >> DT350 >> Novatek

Rajflyboy

Alloy

Toespeas

dude week end warriors , if you want to spend on carbon go for it , but i would just get some mavic kys or similar alloy wheels , over 19mm wide !

Princess_Allez

Wouldn't the brake track wear out?

Johnk3

I imagine that may eventually happen, but I have replaced the brake pads several times. The wheels are fine, the tires need a breath of fresh air...about 110 psi.

cheesesandwich

I have looked at the Hplus rims too. But the aero ones are narrow. Wide rims still appeals to me. The carbon rims I chose the 25mm instead of 28mm because I don't have to adjust the brakes when changing wheels. Although they are only 18mm internally, something I have to compromise.

DaveSSS 

Deep profile carbon rims have a very poor cost to benefit ratio. They are pretty much a waste of money for recreational riders. I don't consider them due to occasional strong cross winds and most weigh more than the moderately priced Campy zondas that I use on two bikes. They weigh 1550 grams and with 16/21 spokes, the should have decent aerodynamics. They have Campy's best hubs, without wasting money on ceramic bearings.

I once thought of moving up to the Shamal or fulcrum zero. They're 100 grams lighter, but the have the same number of fat aluminum spokes, that don't seem like they would be as aerodynamic. They cost twice as much as zondas. I have owned Fulcrum Zero wheels in the past and they worked just fine.

I've read reports of Chinese carbon wheels needing frequent truing. You won't have that problem with campy or fulcrum wheels.

check out pro bike kit for good prices.