350htrr

I was more referring to something like this..
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/03/us/sa...eak/index.html
and young people , like the ones that go to parties, and do not care about getting the virus cause it's only a 2% chance of dying and not thinking about grandma and her chances when they go home and live amongst their family...


EDIT; For society to change young people need to take up that change... and... some other people will loose some of their "rights"...

Leisesturm

We live in such an overlapping and top heavy society that it is totally unfair to put all the onus for change on the young. I'm not young, but the young people are the ones policing their parents who would be partying like its 1999. There are irresponsible young, old and everything in-between, people. Boris Johnson (British PM) isn't all that young, neither is you know who, but both downplayed the need to get serious around this thing. Johnson is now ill and has given the illness to his domestic partner. It doesn't get more egregiously irresponsible than that.

350htrr

Yea, I am sure there are 60+ year old's that go to parties and do some DUMD things... BUT, I am talking HUGE sections of society that number in the millions and do dumb things and not consider the consequences, (not just a minority of that section)…

Leisesturm

Your smugness notwithstanding, my post remains valid. Huge sections of society that number in the millions refuse to let go of ICE (internal combustion engine) automobiles, and that one thing, more than any other is what is going to bring the humanity party to an early end. That's on Boomers. Period. End of story. The Flu killed 3M in 2019*. Covid-19 is on track to kill, perhaps, 500M? We're beating up on Genzee's for that?

*edit: actually, all causes of death combined, killed 3M in 2019

Mobile 155

OK, I got it now. Other than watching them on the news I am not where we see a lot of that. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I don't trust any reports based on results from China.

50PlusCycling

The actual fatality rate is far lower, because the actual number of coronavirus cases is far higher. For every person diagnosed with the virus, at least 10 other people are carrying it. As half of people who contract the virus do not get sick, and show no symptoms, and most of the rest do not get sick enough to bother seeing a doctor or visit a hospital, the actual number of cases is vastly larger. Here in Japan and most other places, only those who are showing strong symptoms, and have other health problem which put them at risk are tested for coronavirus.

The virus is transmitted just like the common cold or flu, it is transmitted mainly by hand. Someone coughs or sneezes and wipes their nose or mouth with their hands, and then they open a door, or touch something, leaving the virus behind. You touch the door handle or something else, yawn, and wipe your hand across your face, and the virus is transmitted to you. In Tokyo, the train and subway systems see 40,000,000 (40 million) rides every weekday. Despite the close proximity, viruses don't seem to be transmitted so easily in Tokyo as people expect. During the SARS outbreak a decade ago, Japan was prepared for the worst, and expected a large number of cases. But they never materialized.

An interesting thing which began in Japan at that time was the placing of hand sanitizers in public places. They could be found in all shops, stores, schools, stations, and such. When the SARS epidemic ended, the hand sanitizers remained, and many people have made it a habit to use them, particularly in flu season. In my condominium building, there is a large bottle of hand sanitizer at every entrance, and all people are encouraged to use these whenever they enter or leave the building. This being the main allergy season, millions of Japanese would be wearing face masks even if there were no Coronavirus outbreak. Masks are not much good at keeping the virus out, but they do prevent you from easily touching your nose, and if you are carrying the virus, they make it harder for you to communicate it.

Keep your hands clean, keep them away from your face, and don't mix with other people if you can help it.

Mobile 155

I am on my third week of stay at home. I have very limited contact with more than one or two people at a time. I wash my hands, have supplies and cleaners, gloves and some masks. What I am concerned about is once the government has picked a villain and several states have decided it is people from large urban areas. They are placing restrictions on those specific people by proclamation. Such a condemnation could very easily leave a social scar that takes a long time to heal. Even if it spreads to rural America the blame will have been established. It seems as if we have decided being close to other people is dangerous. I have friends in California that are in complete shutdown. One of the main draws for the state is it's beaches, parks and hiking trails. They are being closed and people are getting tickets for going there at all. https://calmatters.org/health/corona...-gavin-newsom/ Even in the Urban areas people are trying to avoid mass transit because of social distancing requirements. I simply don't believe we will escape a social change when this is over. But that is something we will not have to wait long to see. My perception anyway.

gregf83 

I think/hope there will be some permanent changes in our society. I've been at home for 3 wks but had to drive into town once for a medical appointment during the week. It was like driving at 7AM on a Sunday morning. Virtually no traffic and the tunnel and bridges were sparsely populated. I think it would be great if a good percentage of the population continued to work at home for a portion of the week. During this lockdown period everyone is figuring out how to use technology to carry on without a loss in productivity. Fewer cars on the road is a good thing for a variety of reasons.

Mobile 155

I tend to agree. The only time I get out is for medical appointments, no longer with large numbers of people in the waiting room. I also get to the Pharmacy plenty of parking. The only restaurants are now sort of drive through or delivery. I don't live where there is a large system for mass transit and fewer cars will make it even less likely that it will be championed after this is all over. At least not for a great while.

What has surprised me is how few seem to care that the big sporting events have been canceled. It took a long time for professional sports to recover after two major strikes this may not be shorter because people will be reluctant to go to a stadium and sit hip to hip with a stranger for a few years I would imagine.

350htrr

Thanks Billy D for not putting this thread into P&R... I was going to answer with another saying... but, you saved me from it...

As for the rest of Leisesturm's argument, the logical/scientific based.? I actually agree… 100%...

Machka 

I hope there will be permanent changes!!

See this article ...
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-...-boom/12119508

alloo

I think that bicycle shops will be come service centers to take your bike in for repairs and parts. Trek has started selling their bikes online with free delivery! On another note, cities were designed around people, suburbs are designed around the automobile. More suburban development, less bicycling.

katsup

Cities = more cycling for a purpose (work, groceries, etc...)
Suburban = more cycling for recreation purposes.

Mobile 155

That is now and has almost always been the case. What I question is if the the push to density will become problematic from a social memory standpoint. The Governor of New York indicated it was a problem that makes his State and major city a target that by extension would include future pandemics. Will we as a society become more stand offish and reject packed Mass transit and urban living because of it? I think it might for a lot of people. Maximum capacities for buildings may easily change to a much lower number. But more than anything else personal space will be increased socially in the future I think. It will be much safer to watch sports on TV or even a play or concert rather than in person packed shoulder to shoulder with other people. I may just be expressing fear here but it is the way the medical people seem to be talking on our nightly news.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/23/n...s-density.html

alloo

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2020/04/...fore-covid-19/

Mobile 155

Must be different living in Denver. Look at what is happening to mass transit.
https://www.masstransitmag.com/manag...rough-march-18

Rollfast

I've never had any culture, unless I needed to see my doctor.

alloo

Denver is the same! RTD has lost 70% of its riders. I took the train and bus to work. Less than 8 people on my bus and I was the only person in the train car in the morning. During my evening commute, 4 people on the train and 10 people on the bus. My goal when riding my bicycle to work was to beat public transportation time and I succeeded after about a month. The pattern in urban development in the US is we move out horizontally, as opposed to vertically causing urban sprawl. The more freeways that you build the more congestion, more traffice, more gas usage. Nobody want to pay more taxes to improve infrastructure. More people move out of the city in the the burbs, and it just keeps getting worse. I don't own a car but I do own a motorscooter and will rent a car occassionally. My new thing is ebikes, the best selling hybrid vehicles around.

BadGrandma

My 40-year-old daughter is pregnant with her third. Millenials just do it longer.

Leisesturm

I really didn't have a 40y.o. with previous children in mind. Is 40y.o. even technically a Millenial? Dunno, but the 20 and 30 somethings, never married, no kids. They aren't trying to bring down the planet through overpopulation. I also wrote that post before every Genzee in 50 states was locked down with their parents indefinitely. They might find that Facetime and/or Zoom have limitations when the assignment is procreation.

50PlusCycling

Here in Tokyo the rail system sees an average of 40 million rides per day. That is 8 times as many as New York City, yet the coronavirus has spread very slowly in Tokyo. Single neighborhoods in New York have seen more deaths than all of Tokyo combined.

What is overlooked seems to be the health of those infected. Healthy people seem to suffer few or no symptoms, whereas unhealthy people become seriously ill or die. The carrier Roosevelt is a good example, the sailors on the ship were healthy, and the virus had little effect on them, 60% of those who had the virus showed no symptoms at all, while most of the rest had only minor symptoms. Those who are most likely to be seriously affected by the disease are the obese, those suffering from diabetes, and smokers. Obesity and diabetes are said to be at epidemic levels in America, while in Japan they are quite uncommon. You won't see many overweight people on a Tokyo subway. Your average Japanese commuter walks a hell of a lot, and climbs a lot of stairs. Even a modern city like Tokyo has tens of thousands of multi-story buildings which do not have elevators or escalators. On my old commute, I used to walk about 15,000 steps per day, and I would climb or descend at least a dozen flights of stairs. There were the stairs at the station, the stairs at my building (my office was on the 3rd floor), at restaurants, and shops.

Machka 

The potential:
- when the government started boosting the economy toward the end of the depression, they did so by putting people to work building roads and infrastructure. I hope that starts happening soon ... wide roads with wide, sealed shoulders for cyclists and wide, easy-access sidewalks for pedestrians
- now that we know we can work from home and attend university from home, I hope people involved in technology will develop and enhance those options. I envision a move away from big buildings for work and university and a more distributed approach.
- I hope for a shift away from big cities to smaller communities that have what we need within walking or cycling distance so that large groups of people don't have to gather in one spot.
- businesses will need to step up their game and stop being so complacent. They'll need to get up to date with technology ... people aren't interested in a business if there isn't a good website. Why would we waste our time going to a place if we don't know if the place has what we need? They'll need to clean! Especially restaurants and accommodations etc. They'll need to focus on delivery.
- now that we know being dirty is bad, hopefully there will be a big push to develop self-cleaning things, easy to clean environments, and to hire people to "deep clean".
- I hope a culture where it is socially acceptable to maintain some distance between us develops. Where it is not socially acceptable to touch people we don't know.
- I also hope for increased independence. We can indeed spend days by ourselves, doing our own thing, entertaining ourselves, making our own decisions. We can think for ourselves. We don't need to do everything in groups.
- I'm also hoping for advances in medicine. Right now scientists all over the world are working on a vaccine for a coronavirus. The common cold is a coronavirus, but not nearly as serious as COVID-19 of course. Perhaps if a vaccine for COVID-19 can be developed, we might also have a vaccine for the common cold! And often, along the way to finding a particular solution, other solutions are found "by accident".
- I'm interested to see what changes there will be to housing ... like sinks or 2-piece toilets right next to the front door so that people can wash when they come into a house.
- Maybe there will be more open air developments rather than closed in places ... in business and at home. There has been some evidence that good ventilation and/or being outside puts people at less risk of catching COVID-19. Maybe houses will have large back decks. Maybe decentralised offices (as mentioned earlier) will also have large decks or courtyard areas where people can meet, eat, work etc. and windows that open. Maybe malls will become more popular ... these are where streets are closed to motor vehicles and the "road" is left in open air but there are shops on either side.
- I'm curious about changes to fashion ... will hoop skirts come back in? great puffy sleeves? hats? veils?

These things need to become commonplace ... and more. I'm sure we can think of more along those lines we'd like to see.

50PlusCycling

Machka, I appreciate your sensitivity to the problem, and your ideas on how we can minimize personal contact. However, you have to be aware of the unintended consequences of such actions. By eliminating personal contact between people, and limiting exposure to bacteria and viruses, our bodies lose the ability to acquire natural immunity. An example of how this works were the polio epidemics of the last century. Those most likely to be crippled by polio were the children of the middle or upper classes who grew up in cleaner environments, while poorer kids who grew up in the dirty streets or on rural farms rarely suffered from serious cases. It is well known that kids who grow up largely outdoors or on farms become less sick from things like influenza or the common cold than kids who live in the city. By limiting or eliminating our exposure to many of the bugs that live in nature, we weaken our defenses to them, and if one or more of these bugs breaks into our society, our bodies find themselves unprepared, and we become quite sick.

As I have grown older I have gained an appreciation for things which I used to think were evils in society, like hardship and suffering. Our bodies need to be challenged to become stronger and more resilient, our human character must also suffer challenges to make it stronger and more resilient. Without these challenges, our bodies, minds, and characters cannot properly evolve and progress.

Digger Goreman

Only slightly "tongue in cheek": Hopefully science will stumble upon a cure for the more insidious, and deadly, COVIQ-#... the virus that saps I.Q., and is most virulent in enclosed places like bars, cars, and government buildings....

Mobile 155

the herd process was being tried in Sweden. Looked good at first but as of yesterday not so good.