Cycling and hand signals
08-09-21, 11:29 AM
#176
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Interesting discussion. I only ever learned the signals given with the left hand, and have been using them ever since; but I learned them over 50 years ago. I now find my state requires that old system, except it allows for the alternative of using the right hand for the right-turn signal only. I may try to adopt that - not sure I like it better, for reasons others have discussed here, but it has its points - but note that it will be hard to get used to because I am right-handed and tend to rely more heavily on the right hand brake; and that's where the gearshift is, too. If I signal with my right I can't be braking with it, and/or shifting down with it as I slow down or stop for the turn.
08-09-21, 11:37 AM
#177
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I always use right arm pointed right to signal a right turn. If I raise my left hand up to signal a right turn, people will likely think I'm waving at them or someone else. It's hard enough to get people to understand what pointing left or right means in the first place. I don't think they teach that much in driver's ed.
When I’m streets with cars, I almost only signal with my left arm because that’s easier for drivers to see. And they may remember the signals.
Sometimes it even helps.
08-09-21, 11:40 AM
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I am biking along a paved multi-use trail today and I see a rider coming towards me in the opposite lane. About 10 yards away he raises his right arm skyward. Clearly he is signaling a turn but I am confused as to which way. I'm thinking maybe he wants to go left which would cross my path but still at a safe distance. He turns to his right.
OTOH, Pointing straight upward.. I see cyclists do this to point out a stop light that is changing (ie. yellow), especially in a group when there are riders behind them.
08-09-21, 11:41 AM
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08-09-21, 12:08 PM
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NHTSA would disagree--right hand is a recommended alternative:
https://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/nt...andSignals.pdf
08-09-21, 12:11 PM
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1) I'm right-handed so my right hand controls the front brake. Consequently, whenever approaching an intersection, or any situation where braking might come in handy, my right hand stays on the brake hood. Consequently, all signalling is done with my left arm. If I were left-handed, my right hand would still control the front brake because in traffic I signal stops and turns; if you only have one hand to brake with, it better control the front brake, so I would still always signal with my left so I could front-brake simultaneously if needed.
2) In my state, no exception for bicycles is encoded in the signalling law. Consequently, here, legally, all signalling should be done with the left arm.
3) A solitary cyclist's right arm signal may be visible front and rear. It may also be ignored because no one knows what it means, but perhaps the accident report will stipulate that the cyclist had his/her arm out to the side. However, when there are cars or other bicycles before or behind the signaling cyclist *right arm signals are completely obscured*. In North America right turns don't cross traffic; I assume this discussion is presupposing North American roads, so right arm signals being approximately equivalent to no signal may not be such a huge deal, but taking your right hand off the handlebars to no purpose just before turning is a rookie mistake. Seriously, I don't mean to insult anyone's intelligence but right arm signaling is what little kids do, and insisting that it makes sense is what little kids say, because little kids reference the entire world to themselves. Adult bicyclists use universal hand signals because they are signalling other people and understand those other people don't have access to their peculiar personal thought-process. Signaling is visual communication, which only works if the signal is visible and intelligible to others. If you don't feel like signaling, don't signal. But don't pretend sticking your arm out to the right is signaling. That's just something you do for yourself.
NB: I do use my right hand to point to pavement hazards as I pass them to the left. That signal is index finger pointing straight down and is generally only visible to the next rider in the peloton. It gives that following rider a fraction of a second warning to avoid the hazard. Hopefully, he/she will do the same and the entire line will pass safely. Brakes are not involved.
2) In my state, no exception for bicycles is encoded in the signalling law. Consequently, here, legally, all signalling should be done with the left arm.
3) A solitary cyclist's right arm signal may be visible front and rear. It may also be ignored because no one knows what it means, but perhaps the accident report will stipulate that the cyclist had his/her arm out to the side. However, when there are cars or other bicycles before or behind the signaling cyclist *right arm signals are completely obscured*. In North America right turns don't cross traffic; I assume this discussion is presupposing North American roads, so right arm signals being approximately equivalent to no signal may not be such a huge deal, but taking your right hand off the handlebars to no purpose just before turning is a rookie mistake. Seriously, I don't mean to insult anyone's intelligence but right arm signaling is what little kids do, and insisting that it makes sense is what little kids say, because little kids reference the entire world to themselves. Adult bicyclists use universal hand signals because they are signalling other people and understand those other people don't have access to their peculiar personal thought-process. Signaling is visual communication, which only works if the signal is visible and intelligible to others. If you don't feel like signaling, don't signal. But don't pretend sticking your arm out to the right is signaling. That's just something you do for yourself.
NB: I do use my right hand to point to pavement hazards as I pass them to the left. That signal is index finger pointing straight down and is generally only visible to the next rider in the peloton. It gives that following rider a fraction of a second warning to avoid the hazard. Hopefully, he/she will do the same and the entire line will pass safely. Brakes are not involved.
08-09-21, 12:24 PM
#182
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Rats... It must be a real bugger ridding in the city. Stop, Go, Signal, Wait, Cross Walks, Traffic... No wonder there are cyclists that drive 40 miles to ride the roads and paths around my neighborhood.
And yes, when there is a car behind me I am signalling any way I can my intended direction, that's for sure...
And yes, when there is a car behind me I am signalling any way I can my intended direction, that's for sure...
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08-09-21, 12:27 PM
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08-09-21, 12:45 PM
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1) I'm right-handed so my right hand controls the front brake. Consequently, whenever approaching an intersection, or any situation where braking might come in handy, my right hand stays on the brake hood. Consequently, all signalling is done with my left arm. If I were left-handed, my right hand would still control the front brake because in traffic I signal stops and turns; if you only have one hand to brake with, it better control the front brake, so I would still always signal with my left so I could front-brake simultaneously if needed.
2) In my state, no exception for bicycles is encoded in the signalling law. Consequently, here, legally, all signalling should be done with the left arm.
3) A solitary cyclist's right arm signal may be visible front and rear. It may also be ignored because no one knows what it means, but perhaps the accident report will stipulate that the cyclist had his/her arm out to the side. However, when there are cars or other bicycles before or behind the signaling cyclist *right arm signals are completely obscured*. In North America right turns don't cross traffic; I assume this discussion is presupposing North American roads, so right arm signals being approximately equivalent to no signal may not be such a huge deal, but taking your right hand off the handlebars to no purpose just before turning is a rookie mistake. Seriously, I don't mean to insult anyone's intelligence but right arm signaling is what little kids do, and insisting that it makes sense is what little kids say, because little kids reference the entire world to themselves. Adult bicyclists use universal hand signals because they are signalling other people and understand those other people don't have access to their peculiar personal thought-process. Signaling is visual communication, which only works if the signal is visible and intelligible to others. If you don't feel like signaling, don't signal. But don't pretend sticking your arm out to the right is signaling. That's just something you do for yourself.
NB: I do use my right hand to point to pavement hazards as I pass them to the left. That signal is index finger pointing straight down and is generally only visible to the next rider in the peloton. It gives that following rider a fraction of a second warning to avoid the hazard. Hopefully, he/she will do the same and the entire line will pass safely. Brakes are not involved.
2) In my state, no exception for bicycles is encoded in the signalling law. Consequently, here, legally, all signalling should be done with the left arm.
3) A solitary cyclist's right arm signal may be visible front and rear. It may also be ignored because no one knows what it means, but perhaps the accident report will stipulate that the cyclist had his/her arm out to the side. However, when there are cars or other bicycles before or behind the signaling cyclist *right arm signals are completely obscured*. In North America right turns don't cross traffic; I assume this discussion is presupposing North American roads, so right arm signals being approximately equivalent to no signal may not be such a huge deal, but taking your right hand off the handlebars to no purpose just before turning is a rookie mistake. Seriously, I don't mean to insult anyone's intelligence but right arm signaling is what little kids do, and insisting that it makes sense is what little kids say, because little kids reference the entire world to themselves. Adult bicyclists use universal hand signals because they are signalling other people and understand those other people don't have access to their peculiar personal thought-process. Signaling is visual communication, which only works if the signal is visible and intelligible to others. If you don't feel like signaling, don't signal. But don't pretend sticking your arm out to the right is signaling. That's just something you do for yourself.
NB: I do use my right hand to point to pavement hazards as I pass them to the left. That signal is index finger pointing straight down and is generally only visible to the next rider in the peloton. It gives that following rider a fraction of a second warning to avoid the hazard. Hopefully, he/she will do the same and the entire line will pass safely. Brakes are not involved.
If the person can't see my right arm signal, chances are about 99.9% that they don't have any reason to care if I turn my bike right. I point to the right when I'm shifting lanes to the right or if I'm turning right from the center of the lane for some reason. The vehicle behind me (i.e., the one I care about seeing the signal) will see it fine if it's relevant.
No one in New England I've ever seen uses the left-handed right turn signal. I'd fully expect that if it were used around here, the likelihood that anyone would recognize it for what it is is about zero.
You lost me at "I'm right handed, so my right hand controls the front brake." You've made an eccentric cabling choice. Probably 99.9% of bikes are cabled the other way, so by your logic, the vast majority of cyclists should use their right hands to signal.
And according to NHTSA, a right hand extended by a bicyclist means a right turn. According to you, NHTSA is staffed by children?
08-09-21, 01:06 PM
#185
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Oh, I almost never ride in town. That's hardly even riding. But out here in the wilderness there are still intersections, occasional stop signs, road construction and plenty of cars moving quickly. Declaring intentions is useful.
Another aspect of this is the benefit of earning the respect of automobile drivers. Some: never going to happen. Some: already bike riders, or were, or their kids are. Many: slightly annoyed, slightly alarmed by the close proximity of relatively slow and relatively vulnerable bicycles on the road. They can go either way—treat bicyclists as different but legitimate vehicle operators, or treat bicyclists as foolhardy, frivolous, fat-headed obstructionists. How bicyclists are treated on the road partly depends on how they behave on the road. Right-arm signalling is one of several ways bicyclists can demonstrate ignorance of or indifference to rules and protocols incumbent on all other vehicle operators, encouraging those operators otherwise on the fence decide that bicycles are not really legitimate road vehicles, not really deserving of courtesy or respect.
Another aspect of this is the benefit of earning the respect of automobile drivers. Some: never going to happen. Some: already bike riders, or were, or their kids are. Many: slightly annoyed, slightly alarmed by the close proximity of relatively slow and relatively vulnerable bicycles on the road. They can go either way—treat bicyclists as different but legitimate vehicle operators, or treat bicyclists as foolhardy, frivolous, fat-headed obstructionists. How bicyclists are treated on the road partly depends on how they behave on the road. Right-arm signalling is one of several ways bicyclists can demonstrate ignorance of or indifference to rules and protocols incumbent on all other vehicle operators, encouraging those operators otherwise on the fence decide that bicycles are not really legitimate road vehicles, not really deserving of courtesy or respect.
08-09-21, 01:07 PM
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I'm right-handed. I've never ridden a bicycle with the front brake on the right side. I've owned more than a few bikes over more than a few years.
The only people I've known who move the front brake to the right side are guys who also ride motorcycles.
The only people I've known who move the front brake to the right side are guys who also ride motorcycles.
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08-09-21, 01:18 PM
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08-09-21, 01:33 PM
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In the state I live in (as well as many other states, it seems), vehicle code permits cyclists to use their right hand to signal a right turn. No pretending about it. It's a legal signal.
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08-09-21, 01:44 PM
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NHTSA would disagree--right hand is a recommended alternative:
https://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/nt...andSignals.pdf
https://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/nt...andSignals.pdf
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08-09-21, 01:48 PM
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Rear brakes are close to useless, the more so the harder the braking. Front brakes need the best possible modulation, quickest access and sometimes greatest hand strength. That means right-handed people are best served braking front with the right hand. Other considerations could overrule that but the main reason so many bikes are set up right-to-rear is the fear of endos from locking the front wheel, the idea being that the stronger hand should control the weaker brake. That, of course, is paranoia based on fiction. I tear around on a single speed that only has one brake and can't raise the rear tire off the pavement if I try, and if I could, and if there were a rear brake, it wouldn't be close to useless, it would be completely useless. I'm sorry that loses you but it remains logical: it's best for the most capable hand to control the most capable brake, but whichever hand is chosen that hand should stay near that brake lever as much as possible. Signaling with both arms means that for some turns braking simultaneously invokes the front brake, other turns the rear. Consistent brake response mandates always braking with the same brake, which means always signaling with the other arm. So which of your two arms is the smarter choice for signaling and which for braking? It's not complicated. Your left arm, on right-drive roads, is always more visible, sometimes incomparably more visible. That means the strongest, surest, best controlled braking while signaling is right-to-front braking.
I don't have statistics. All I know is that I and many knowledgeable cyclists brake right-to-front. That's intelligent for right-handed people even if they never signal. It's intelligent for everybody that signals consistently with the left arm (unless they ride so slowly that rear braking is sufficient). The rest...
Last edited by kozmikarl; 08-09-21 at 02:01 PM.
08-09-21, 02:52 PM
#193
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NHTSA would disagree--right hand is a recommended alternative:
https://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/nt...andSignals.pdf
https://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/nt...andSignals.pdf
08-09-21, 02:58 PM
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08-09-21, 03:06 PM
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08-09-21, 03:36 PM
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Can't help losing you.
Rear brakes are close to useless, the more so the harder the braking. Front brakes need the best possible modulation, quickest access and sometimes greatest hand strength. That means right-handed people are best served braking front with the right hand. Other considerations could overrule that but the main reason so many bikes are set up right-to-rear is the fear of endos from locking the front wheel, the idea being that the stronger hand should control the weaker brake. That, of course, is paranoia based on fiction. I tear around on a single speed that only has one brake and can't raise the rear tire off the pavement if I try, and if I could, and if there were a rear brake, it wouldn't be close to useless, it would be completely useless. I'm sorry that loses you but it remains logical: it's best for the most capable hand to control the most capable brake, but whichever hand is chosen that hand should stay near that brake lever as much as possible. Signaling with both arms means that for some turns braking simultaneously invokes the front brake, other turns the rear. Consistent brake response mandates always braking with the same brake, which means always signaling with the other arm. So which of your two arms is the smarter choice for signaling and which for braking? It's not complicated. Your left arm, on right-drive roads, is always more visible, sometimes incomparably more visible. That means the strongest, surest, best controlled braking while signaling is right-to-front braking.
I don't have statistics. All I know is that I and many knowledgeable cyclists brake right-to-front. That's intelligent for right-handed people even if they never signal. It's intelligent for everybody that signals consistently with the left arm (unless they ride so slowly that rear braking is sufficient). The rest...
Rear brakes are close to useless, the more so the harder the braking. Front brakes need the best possible modulation, quickest access and sometimes greatest hand strength. That means right-handed people are best served braking front with the right hand. Other considerations could overrule that but the main reason so many bikes are set up right-to-rear is the fear of endos from locking the front wheel, the idea being that the stronger hand should control the weaker brake. That, of course, is paranoia based on fiction. I tear around on a single speed that only has one brake and can't raise the rear tire off the pavement if I try, and if I could, and if there were a rear brake, it wouldn't be close to useless, it would be completely useless. I'm sorry that loses you but it remains logical: it's best for the most capable hand to control the most capable brake, but whichever hand is chosen that hand should stay near that brake lever as much as possible. Signaling with both arms means that for some turns braking simultaneously invokes the front brake, other turns the rear. Consistent brake response mandates always braking with the same brake, which means always signaling with the other arm. So which of your two arms is the smarter choice for signaling and which for braking? It's not complicated. Your left arm, on right-drive roads, is always more visible, sometimes incomparably more visible. That means the strongest, surest, best controlled braking while signaling is right-to-front braking.
I don't have statistics. All I know is that I and many knowledgeable cyclists brake right-to-front. That's intelligent for right-handed people even if they never signal. It's intelligent for everybody that signals consistently with the left arm (unless they ride so slowly that rear braking is sufficient). The rest...
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08-09-21, 03:36 PM
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I am biking along a paved multi-use trail today and I see a rider coming towards me in the opposite lane. About 10 yards away he raises his right arm skyward. Clearly he is signaling a turn but I am confused as to which way. I'm thinking maybe he wants to go left which would cross my path but still at a safe distance. He turns to his right.
I appreciate his use of signals (most people don't) but I was really confused about the straight up arm. If he wanted to go right, why not just stick his arm out to the right? A signal anyone could accurately interpret.
It took me a minute to consider that while driving an automobile without a turn signal, the driver could stick out their left arm signaling a left hand turn but you can't point to the right so the raised arm is used instead.
But on a bike?
I did a little research and the League of American Bicylists recommends either method. From their site:
"Right Turn: Fully extend your right arm out to the side or bend your left arm up at a right angle with your hand flat."
That advice makes no sense to me. If I am making a left hand turn in front of you (assuming a safe distance) I will point left.
If I am going to the right, I'll point right. This straight up business defines ambiguity.
What do you think?
I appreciate his use of signals (most people don't) but I was really confused about the straight up arm. If he wanted to go right, why not just stick his arm out to the right? A signal anyone could accurately interpret.
It took me a minute to consider that while driving an automobile without a turn signal, the driver could stick out their left arm signaling a left hand turn but you can't point to the right so the raised arm is used instead.
But on a bike?
I did a little research and the League of American Bicylists recommends either method. From their site:
"Right Turn: Fully extend your right arm out to the side or bend your left arm up at a right angle with your hand flat."
That advice makes no sense to me. If I am making a left hand turn in front of you (assuming a safe distance) I will point left.
If I am going to the right, I'll point right. This straight up business defines ambiguity.
What do you think?
As in all signaling,
1. asking permission to turn
2. and then when safe make turn.
08-09-21, 03:44 PM
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08-09-21, 03:47 PM
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