headwind15

I have this old Cinelli frame. The chrome on it was shot. I took the paint off of it and took it to a chroming shop in San Diego. I stopped is a few weeks later to see how they were doing. They said they were buffing the frame. Buffing it alright. They buffed the lugs down with an industrial size buffer (thinning them). To me, they wrecked the frame. I have been a framebuilder for over 20 yrs. I brass and silver braze and tig weld. I have even made frames with all fully custom lugs. I do not know what/ how to restore this sad old frame, Any ideas?

duanedr 

Pictures would help. Are you saying they removed lug material so the lugs are thinner now than before you took it to them? Did they strip it and re-chrome it? Did they buff through the original chrome? Is it possible the original chrome was very thick and they've removed some thickness to get down to good chroming? I'm not familiar with chrome and how thick each layer. More thorough description of what happened is needed.

Andrew R Stewart 

As a builder with 20 years experience you should have known of this possibility if the pre work understanding wasn't made sure. So what was the pre work discussion? What was the expectation? Andy

headwind15

The buffer operator buffed so hard on the lugs, they re significantly thinner, not just the old chrome removed.

duanedr 

Well I'm still unclear on the sequence of events. Need to understand more about whether it was stripped and re-chromed or just that they tried to buff the old chrome and removed too much material (!!!??).

Does it appear to be done evenly on all lugs or just in one localized section? Did it affect the tubes? If it appears to be done evenly on all lugs and the tubes aren't affected, it's possible the original lugs were thinned and the old chrome made them look thicker and you're just fine. Thinned lugs are sort of a hallmark of high end frames - as you would certainly know. Old chrome may be thicker than new chrome.

I suppose I would start by measuring the OD of the tubes in the middle of the tube and then adjacent to the lugs. If they are the same OD, you're probably fine. Also, if the lugs are more than roughly 0.035" thick (0.070" bigger than OD of the tube) that would confirm for me that they haven't removed significant material and the frame is probably fine. If there are areas where the lugs are significantly thicker or thinner or uneven, then I might get worried. I would rely on my experience as a metal fabricator to make that decision of when to get worried.

It's possible the new chrome is just thinner or you're seeing it without any plating and the lugs just look thinner.

I just am struggling to understand how ham-fisted the buffer would have to be to 'buff' through the chrome, copper and lug material.

headwind15

The lugs are now thinner towards the tips and graduate thicker. I know about how thin lugs are the hallmark or high end frames. I remember in the late '70s seeing my first Ritchey road frame and how cool the thin lugs looked. This is a Cinelli. I just want/ wanted it to look stock, not like someone ground the distinguished Cinelli lugs down to a pulp. When I saw the (damaged) frame, I thought that I was going to barf. (I was really upset). This frame had been used to make the 72 Olympic team. I raced on it countless times, I toured on it from SFO to Atlanta, and I could go on and on and on about it. I did not go through with the (re)plating. I told them that I would "fix" the frame and bring it back. I looked at it for a few weeks. Ultimately, I rattle canned it silver to protect it from rusting and put it in a cardboard box, and that was15 years ago.

duanedr 

I am sorry for your loss. Sounds like a special frame.

unterhausen

Wow, that story hurts. I really don't think there is much that can be done for it.

headwind15

I have this idea. I do not know what anyone here thinks of it . What if I trace the size of the front (narrow to the point) of the lugs onto a piece of paper and use some thin metal the lugs. I would have to also figure out the hole sizes and exact placement. This will likely take a few times to get right. I would flow brass onto the top of what is left of the old lugs. I would then clamp (exactly) the fabricated lug bits on top of the old ones and then heat it up until the old and new lug are brazed together. Now, I have a friend who has a old Cinelli bike collection. I could have him measure his lug thickness and I could grind and file mine down to the stock height. The snags that I see are; A) Having the edge of the original lug and new top looking like there is only one layer and B) The holes coming out really clean/ stock looking.

zandoval 

Your just gonna grind off the old ones and braze on new lugs... We know this and you know this. Still... its good to rant that's for sure.

Edit: Sorry... I was thinking boss lugs like on down tube shifters and cable routing. If your talking about the frame tube lugs... RATS... What a shame...

unterhausen

My general thought is that messing with it is a bad idea. But I haven't seen any pictures. You could layer some filletpro silver on top of what's left and then file it to shape. Don't use brass.

headwind15

Thank you for your input. The Cinelli lugs have three drilled holes down the middle. Do you have any idea how I might keep the holes if I flow filletpro silver over the top? I assume the silver would stick to stainless. Aluminum plugs?

zandoval 

It's worth a try. Would like to know what kind of flux, temp, and alloy you expect to use?

unterhausen

I think there are ways to mask filler. A plug might not be a great idea. I'm really suggesting things blindly since we have no pictures.

duanedr 

I might try to build it up with 50n silver or even 56 - I suppose he can always file down to the desired thickness. I think making sure the flux is only where you want the filler and doesn't go in the holes would be the only way I can think of to mask small details - but I don't have a lot of experience trying to do stuff like that. I have tried using heat blocking clay and other tricks but I doubt they would work on holes in lugs - I am imagining something like Bruce Gordon did on his and many others have done when you describe the holes.

Your suggested solution seems like a lot of work for the risk of actually making it look worse. Also, heating what chrome may be left causes problems with released fumes. Wear a good mask.

Assuming the frame is still structurally sound, I would be inclined to simply have it powder coated or painted and ride it. It should still ride like you remember and if you want one to look at, borrow one from your friend to hang on the wall. You could change his out every month or so to keep the artwork fresh! Best of both worlds!!

unterhausen

I suggested fillet pro because it builds better. 56 is going to be a pain to build up. Thinking about it some more, if someone forced me to do this I probably would use brass.
But I'm with you on not doing anything other than just painting/decaling. It would restore 78% of the aesthetics of the frame, and people might not even notice on a built up bike.
Not saying it can't be restored. For example, Cinelli made so many of those lugs that they are still available on ebay, although without the 3 holes on the top.

Doug Fattic 

In one of my early framebuilding classes in about 1977, I let one of my student use my Dynafile. He discovered to his joy that it removed metal much faster than with a hand file. Just a coincidence he used Cinelli lugs on his frame as well. Of course it was also easy to take too much off so that the silver brazing underneath became visible. My solution when we painted his frame was to add the equivalent of Bondo on top of the lug. It was fairly easy to shape and add more if necessary. Some years ago he brought it back for a repaint and again I followed the same process. The old putty had held up well over the years.

If this was my frame, I'd find the best auto body putty (that uses an activator to harden) and build up the lugs to the right height. The putty can be sanded and filed with jeweler files until it had the right shape. It would also be easy to work around the holes. I would paint just the lugs and leave the majority of the frame chromed. Just a thought

CliffordK

Is the frame bare, or chromed?

I think I'd just repaint and ride. Perhaps add some extra pin striping to accentuate the lugs if you wish.

If you were very very careful, an endmill would clean out any accessible holes almost instantly, although you'd have to figure out what you wanted to do with the frame curvature.

headwind15

I gave incomplete information. The original owner paid extra to have the forks and whole rear end chrome plated, not just the head tube and seat lug as typically seen on Cinellis. (the forks are intact) The frame currently has no chrome and no original paint. (the frame currently has rattle can paint on it to stop any rusting.) my dream goal would be to restore the whole frame/ bike, with the lugs restored to the original height and the rear end and head lugs chromed, so bondo buildup would not work (I assume bondo can't be chrome plated). I do bicycle frame powder coating. I might have to take the disappointing hit, and just powder coat it.

zandoval 

This works well and if the mud is sealed well is very durable. My experience with doing this dates back to 1972 when I modified my 450 Honda to a hard tail with 1" rake. It was fun. My buddy and I spent days smoothing out joints and fillets. Latter he finished his bike, a 54 Pan Head, that we took to a body man down the street. It only took him a few hours to do what took us over a week.

My suggestion is to pursue using the putty but getting a local body man artist to do the work. It's not that hard, but it's not that easy either...

Doug Fattic 

Now that we have more information, we can give you more advice that you can ignore. I know it is possible to add Fillet Pro silver on top of the lug to build up thickness but the chances of something going wrong and making the situation worse are really high. I'm really good with a torch (pardon my immodestly but I need to say that to make my point) and know how challenging it would be to get the silver to flow right up to the edges and not spill over. Adding to your difficulty are the extra holes. Yes if it gets on the tube it could be filed off with riffler files but I see this is as an extreme challenge for even the most skilled.

I have some extra original Cinelli lugs. They were my go-to-lugs in the 70's because I could carve out the frame owner's initial in the down tube lug. It would be easier (but still very difficult) to shape the lug to the exact size of your Cinelli frame (including adding the holes). The top socket part of the new lug could be cut off and brazed on top of the old lug. And then it can be filed to the desired thickness. I just see this as a nightmare of work that if it isn't done perfectly will look worse than it is now.

I'm a wet painter so I need to be respectful of your abilities to powder coat but that extra thickness of plastic coating over the lugs and taking away from the crispness of the shorelines would not be pleasing to me eye anyway, Also where Cinelli has the transition of chrome to paint around the seat lug (that is if you decide to chrome the back end still) would not look great because of the thick edge.

So again if it was my sentimental bike where it is important to me that it look nice, I'd add thickness with Bondo like putty. The reason I would do that is because it would be easy for me to apply and shape. And to redo until I am happy with the results. I would mask the head lugs and paint them another color (probably silver or the same color as your decals). I would have the chrome guys to the back end so the look is similar. Frames go through transitions as they age and it isn't unusual to add or subtract braze-ons and maybe change the color and spread the rear end for more gears. This would be just one more chapter in its life rescuing it from frame damage. What is going to make you happy or sad with the revision is whether it looks really good or not. A poor looking repair will bother you forever and as a result will get hidden away. A really good looking repaint will make you happy even if it is not exactly the same as it was originally. So choose a plan that will make your frame look really good and you will be okay.

Just so you know, all my colleagues that have someone do chroming on their frames always do the polishing themselves to avoid the grunts with big polishing wheels removing too much of the frame. If you get the back end chromed, you might want to consider figuring out how to polish it yourself.

unterhausen

I have seen people say they have found someone to polish and they won't tell who. A bit selfish, really.

Doug, I like your bondo idea. From the sounds of it, the frame is essentially ruined from an aesthetic point of view. I just don't see how to fix it to where it can be chromed without a ship of Theseus situation

I have been holding this one back, but if I wanted a cinelli to ride I would buy a good condition Windsor, fix it up, and get Cinelli stickers put on it.
Or, as I said, it's easy to build a replica still. The seat cluster being the only thing that really requires any fab work. Might have to do some fabbing to copy the bb, but there are bb blanks that can be made to work well.

headwind15

You are not going to believe this but the Cinelli is actually too big for me (I can ride it, but just too big). Four years ago I bought a Windsor, fixed it up and have been riding it since. OK, I did not put Cinelli stickers on it.

smontanaro 

I know it's no problem right now as this thread and the second one are both active, but it might make sense for the mods to merge that one into this one so everything is all in one place so that someone coming along later will be able to find both the plea for help and the pictures in a single thread.

headwind15

I started a second thread because I had requests for pictures. I believe it would have been too much for me to expect responders to check back to see if I (ever) posted pictures, so at least to me it made sense to start another thread.