Drillium Dude 

OP: you weren't impressed because you went by looks. Ride one. You'll see what all the fuss is about

DD

obrentharris 

Any bicycle that gives its owner pleasure is a good bike!
Beyond that it's icing on the cake. Many of us here, myself included, are connoisseurs of icing and, as you can tell from these comments, we have different opinions about what makes great icing.

If you get the chance try riding some different bikes: You may come to share this delightful madness over icing!
Brent

Salamandrine 

While "pedigree" as you put it has some influence on value, especially now decades later, most of the price differences between bicycles are the result of real physical differences. Not everything is related to status and perception and market forces. A professional quality racing bike frame is made from drawn and butted seamless tubing, often of a proprietary alloy of steel. Cheaper bikes may be made of seamed tubing, lesser steels, plain gauge, etc. Top components are made from forged aluminum alloy versus cast aluminum (or steel). The bearings are precision ground. Etc etc.

Anyhow it depends on the level of bike, not the brand. If you were to compare a top level Nishiki Professional with a Colnago, especially of later years, there wouldn't be much difference. If you compare a mid level Nishiki to an all campy Colnago - there isn't a comparison. The Colnago is better.

Funny thing to me is Colnago's perceived status today. BITD Colnago was a sort of entry level Italian racing bike. Not that they were low quality; it was a good bike priced fairly. A frame could be bought new from Bikecology for like $399, and then built up with whatever parts you could scrounge.

Wileyone 

This is what I don't understand either as they are not exactly rare. When they are priced on par or more against the likes of De Rosa's or Cinelli's.

I just don't get it.

wrk101

Nishiki had a full product line, including some really, really, basic stuff. So typically a Colnago is going to be a lot better.

Nishiki was a marketing brand, they did not make bicycles, instead they bought from others. Some of the models were excellent.

Most of the Italian brands enjoy an Italian premium. I really get a kick out of made in Asia Bianchis that get a similar Italian premium.

athrowawaynic

This is one of those things that I try to wrap my mind around.

Materials imperfections, build imperfections, unseen/micro-level differences.

How do you guarantee that the chainstays are actually exactly identical from the one frame to the next? What if the butted part of the top tube is aft or fore by an inch or a centimeter or a millimeter? What if the welder used a gram too much brazing (or half a gram or a hundredth of a gram)?

You could end up with two bikes that, at a "macro", exterior level look and weigh the same. But with just enough difference to affect the ride so that the one is sublime while the other is just fine.

jeirvine 

Exactly. And this is why I have tended towards patiently finding nice old steel bikes for cheap, riding them, and keeping the ones I like, rather than paying $$$ for a custom bespoke frame, that after all is said and done may not click with me at all.

jetboy 

I am pretty sure the colnago does not hog more gas than the nishiki! (sorry for the snark... sorta)


it comes down to the incremental that is exponential in costs. all that finish work takes time, and human artistry that a production built machine does not-- even if the ride is the same. So while 99% of the Nishiki and the Colnago are identical (its a bicycle) it is that last 1% that adds the x10.

but as others have said, Nishiki also had hand built machines- that probably do not get the love because of the perception and history italian cycling- which is WELL deserved. The Japanese simply copied them afterall- So you pay more the closer you come to the origin.

please note that I have no italian bikes but several japanese.

Bikerider007

Tough to beat the marketing and flair of Colnago. They are the blingy and what's better than that. Not a big fan of the pop culture feel but when a deal came my way I bought one. IMO no collection is really complete without one. Resale is good and they are plentiful if you really want one.

Values are stale and as the internet and FB provides more and more info on the past. The gap widens between avg and top of the line. Nishiki is not a bad bike depending on model, just not what many consider a sought after bike.

As for the ride, who knows lol, mine has sat the last year and a half as I get OCD about things I like, so my Klein still rules the roost. It keeps me up with most of the carbon boys on lightweight, e shifting, multiple geared (12,speed Campy soon!) bikes which is enough for me. I'm sure the Nishiki would do the same if you ride enough. Anyone seriously racing would be on a newer bike.

DiabloScott

Your day must've been before mine. I always thought of them as top drawer - they carried quite a few of my favorite pro riders in my favorite pro races.

Saronni
Fondriest
Museeuw
Tafi
Freire

Sure, they had budget models too.

DMC707

I doubt the choice of either, -- with equivalent gearing selection and wheelsets -- would be the difference in whether you podium or not at the local Tuesday night Worlds

DIMcyclist

I've also owned several Japanese-made frames (and still do; generally, I prefer them- as I'd prefer the aforementioned 260Z), but I did get a couple of Italian frames to see what all the fuss was about- the declarations of 'heaven on two wheels' & so on... And while the frames I have aren't top-of-the-line, they do ride quite well; however, the entry-level Torelli is made with a higher degree of craftsmanship than my Pinarello- which is arguably the better frame, based on its tubing. Both bikes are set up as 10sp doubles, with similar gearing; one with Campy Daytona & the other with Shimano 105. Even so, I can hardly tell the difference between them. Given the choice though, I'd still prefer a Nagasawa.

As by way of a broader cultural observation, I'd say the Japanese are a practical people at heart, and Italian frames are subsumed with a notable degree of romanticism. In the Buddhist view of the former, perfection is achievable; in the poetics of the latter, it's a thing to be pursued but never attained.

-

Reynolds 

Once read a reportage about De Rosa where a master framebuilder (can't recall his name right now) said something like "the difference between Ugo and the rest of us is that 90% of the frames we make are perfect, for him it's 100%".

Kontact 

A bicycle frame comes down to the materials, how they are altered, the geometry and the final finish.

Nishiki could combine a high end Ishiwata tubeset that has the same specs as a good Italian one, braze it together with just as much care as Colnago would and give it similarly racy geometry. But the Colnago may have the lugs thinned for greater durability and different ride qualities, and is likely to have fancier lugs, chrome and paint than the Nishiki.


But I would happily ride the Nishiki, even though the Colnago may have a tiny edge and more beauty. They will perform similarly enough and the actual quality control is comparable.

mstateglfr 

Paramounts were fully silver brazed? So they didnt even do a mix of the two depending on if it was a large surface area or small surface area?
I get that silver solders at a lower temp...but everything ive read shows the steel used then could handle either temp without measurable/noticable degredation in quality and reliability.

What made a fully silver brazed frame inherently better than one with a mix of silver and brass or full brass?


I ask this not intwnding to be confrontational, really just curious on perception of quality.

Kontact 

Silver is used with lighter, thinner walled tubing and tighter fitting, invest cast lugs. It is hard to build a lighter weight steel bike at bronze temps because the thin tubing can't take it.

unterhausen

I am pretty sure Paramounts were made with bronze at least til the end of the '70s, probably later. Nobody that was successfully building with bronze would have switched back then, because silver prices went through the roof and hadn't gotten all the way back down until later.

there is no technical basis for this statement, and experience indicates othewise.

Andy_K 

My De Rosa must have been made by one of his apprentices.

Drillium Dude 

Ha ha - but yeah, nobody's perfect. Bet that frame rides like a dream, tho

DD

jeirvine 

Reynolds 753 required silver brazing, by Reynolds-certified builders. I had not heard of other tubing that required it.

Salamandrine 

I'm not sure when my day was since I've been cycling since I was about 10 and still am. I guess I'm talking late 70s and early 80s - the latter part of the NR/SR era.

Slight misunderstanding perhaps. By racing bike I mean top level Columbus SL (or Reynolds) racing bike. Colnago (Super, Mexico etc) was a top drawer bike, but it was an entry into that 'pro' level. DeRosa, Gios, and other boutique frames were much more expensive at the time.

Yeah, lot's of great riders rode Colnago. Would there have been any functional difference between them and the pricier brands? Not really IMO. Maybe they had a more efficient factory, or cut out a middleman, or something like that.

Kontact 

Are you talking about both, or just the temp part? I've been told by several builders that investment cast lugs are hard to get the bronze to sweat into because of the smaller clearance.


I was looking at a Fuji brochure the other day that stated that they used special quad butted tubing because it allowed the use of brass without damaging the tubing.


It isn't that you absolutely can't use bronze for thin tubing, but there must be a reason that silver is used despite the cost. Modern air hardening tubing should be great for bronze temps.

Andy_K 

It definitely does -- waaaaayyyyyy better than my Nishiki Olympic which was built in the same year. That's not apples to oranges -- it's steak to slightly rotten brussel spouts. Some of that depends on the components, of course. Also, the Nishiki would make a much, much better bar hopper than the De Rosa.

ascherer 

kc0yef 

yep the Schwinn SP Voyager is amazing and the Trek 910 well best frame I ever rode