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What Sort of Gearing Works Best for your Needs?

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What Sort of Gearing Works Best for your Needs?

Old 10-26-21, 10:23 AM
  #326  
livedarklions
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Originally Posted by Moisture View Post
livedarklions i find it so absurd how you think you possess some sort of superiority over other cyclists here by being a masher. I bet the more skilled guys here would smoke you.

You think the way you cycle is superior and most efficient simply because this is what you've stubbornly convinced yourself without ever trying anything else.

Even as a troll, you're not very good. I've never said that I know what will work best for anyone but myself, and I'm not claiming any superiority over anyone, I just get tired of people telling me how much better I'd be if I just rode like they do. Yes, I do think I've found the best method FOR ME. One of the benefits of my method FOR ME is really great endurance. I do know that I ride long distances and you don't, so I really don't feel I need to pretend any of your self-appointed expertise is of any value.

Suggest that you work on your reading comprehension before you start telling people what crank lengths they should adopt based on problems you made up.

I'm quite sure there are people on this thread that are faster than me, that says absolutely nothing about how this 60 year old cyclist would or wouldn't improve if I suddenly changed my entire approach to how I ride. Given that I just recovered (mostly) from the effects of bilateral pulmonary embolisms late last year, you'll forgive me if I'm not really in the mood to experiment with a drastic shift of load from my leg muscles to my CV system. The embolisms triggered a mild heart attack almost exactly one year ago, and I've managed to ride about 5300 miles this year after starting the early spring unable to ride 3 miles without getting winded.

Only person here who has suggested we should all listen to him because of how great he is is you. Suffice it to say I'm not buying that.

Last edited by livedarklions; 10-26-21 at 10:29 AM.
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Old 10-26-21, 10:24 AM
  #327  
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
I wrote training is designed to delay fatigue. That's different than all training results in delaying fatigue.

Wouldn't training to raise AT reduce time above AT on subsequent rides? But if you want to delay fatigue to the greatest extent and pace can be self-selected (rather than dictated by a time limit or keeping up with a group) then the best approach would probably be to limit intensity to below the point where blood lactate begins to rise above baseline.
Some or most training for time crunched athletes actually lowers the aerobic threshold, but yes.....increasing AT would be helpful
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Old 10-26-21, 10:25 AM
  #328  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I think I've said several times in this thread that I have never measured my cadence. It's back-calculated based on speed and gears. I measure my speed and the gearing is intentionally selected. I don't care about cadence at all, as you suggest it just sort of adjusts itself to whatever I'm doing. TBH, one of the other posters keeps bringing up my cadence, but I don't think it's terribly interesting as I just think it's the obvious consequence of my gear preferences, which was the subject of this thread.
Is it safe to assume you also don't measure power?
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Old 10-26-21, 10:32 AM
  #329  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Is it safe to assume you also don't measure power?

Safer than houses. I don't train, I ride. I measure speed, distance and climb. I also measure the best diners to stop for lunch in the middle of a century.
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Old 10-26-21, 10:42 AM
  #330  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Is it safe to assume you also don't measure power?
How is power measurement relevant?

The only way I can see it relevant to a given cyclist is if he has been hooked up to a cart or had muscle oxygenation measured at a variety of power and cadences. Picking a cadence based on power is no better and probably much worse than using the cadence that your body and brain decide is best. I have found that my prefered cadence increases linearly with power and it is generally a bit lower than other cyclists. My heart rate at threshold is also much lower, it is like 143 beats at 315 watts. Some of us are wired differently and a PM isn't needed to learn all that
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Old 10-26-21, 10:46 AM
  #331  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
How is power measurement relevant?
LDL produces more power at a much lower cadence than most people. Someone asked if he measures his cadence, and he said no. I asked if he measures his power, and he said no. Simple questions, simple answers.
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Old 10-26-21, 10:53 AM
  #332  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
LDL produces more power at a much lower cadence than most people. Someone asked if he measures his cadence, and he said no. I asked if he measures his power, and he said no. Simple questions, simple answers.
Simply unrelated to the topic.

My question was also simple. How is it relevant. I explained why it isn't. It seems that you and others are ganging up on the guy.
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Old 10-26-21, 10:56 AM
  #333  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
LDL produces more power at a much lower cadence than most people. Someone asked if he measures his cadence, and he said no. I asked if he measures his power, and he said no. Simple questions, simple answers.

With my personality, if I started keeping that sort of data, I'd get wayyyy too obsessed with it. Pretty sure it would ruin cycling for me.

That's not a criticism of people who do that sort of monitoring, that's just my quirks.
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Old 10-26-21, 11:05 AM
  #334  
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What Sort of Gearing Works Best for your Needs?

1. What sort of terrain do you ride on?
2. What sort of bike is it?
3. How hilly is the area you ride in
4. Whats your current ratio spread and how does it suit your needs?
5. How would you change it?
Old injuries that severely limit the amount of power I can put down and which terrain I am able to ride.

So, it's:
  • Bike: A 1990s vintage MTB of smaller size -- Trek 970.
  • Riding Style/Position: Fairly upright riding position.
  • Gearing: 2x11spd Shimano M8000, 165mm 2x crank, 34/24T chain rings, 11-42T cassette.
  • Terrain: fairly flat, though with minor undulations, and a couple of tougher shorter climbs.

Gearing is: 34/24T rings, 11-42T cassette with 11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-37-42T. The steps aren't my favorite on the lower half of the gears (21-42T), but it works okay. When power output tanks on a given incline, I simply gear way down and tolerate the much slower speeds.

That yields gearing of Low = sub-15g.i. and High = ~80g.i.. Not ideal. But since I don't need to go any faster it works for me.
https://www.gear-calculator.com/?GR=...N=MPH&DV=teeth

Back when I still had powerful legs, I recall test-riding a late-1980s Ritchey Ultra with (IIRC) a 7spd 11-28T cassette and 22/32/42T chain rings. If it was the Shimano CS-HG70 cassette, that would have been 11-13-15-18-21-24-28T. On the test ride, I was able to climb right up a ~30% hard-packed dirt grade for a hundred yards or so while sitting on the saddle. Just powered right up the incline. No can do, these days. That yielded gearing of Low = sub-21g.i. and High = ~100. Much more appropriate for speedier travel, with a low that was low enough for solid legs without injuries.

Much older, these days, but still on a bike. I'm okay with that. I suppose I'd prefer gearing nearer to 12.5 to 13g.i., which would ensure getting up the steepest inclines I contend with. Almost slow enough to topple over, but it works. But I didn't want to do a big fat 1x to get it. Next stop, next time I need to re-do the gearing to go even lower ... probably an electric.

Last edited by Clyde1820; 10-27-21 at 12:32 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 10-26-21, 11:11 AM
  #335  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
Simply unrelated to the topic.

My question was also simple. How is it relevant. I explained why it isn't.
The thread is largely about LDL and how he produces more power at a very low cadence, and you don't see the relevance of asking if he measures his power?

It seems that you and others are ganging up on the guy.
I asked a very simple question and he answered it. End of story.
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Old 10-26-21, 11:12 AM
  #336  
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Originally Posted by Clyde1820 View Post
Old injuries that severely limit the amount of power I can put down and which terrain I am able to ride.

So, it's:
  • Bike: A 1990s vintage MTB of smaller size -- Trek 970.
  • Riding Style/Position: Fairly upright riding position.
  • Gearing: 2x11spd Shimano M8000, 165mm 2x crank, 34/24T chain rings, 11-42T cassette.
  • Terrain: fairly flat, though with minor undulations, and a couple of tougher shorter climbs.

Gearing is: 34/24T rings, 11-42T cassette with 11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-37-42T. The steps aren't my favorite on the lower half of the gears (21-42T), but it works okay. When power output tanks on a given incline, I simply gear way down and tolerate the much slower speeds.

That's yields gearing of Low = sub-15g.i. and High = ~80. Not ideal, since I don't need to go any faster it works for me.
https://www.gear-calculator.com/?GR=...N=MPH&DV=teeth

Back when I still had powerful legs, I recall test-riding a late-1980s Ritchey Ultra with (IIRC) a 7spd 11-28T cassette and 22/32/42T chain rings. If it was the Shimano CS-HG70 cassette, that would have been 11-13-15-18-21-24-28T. On the test ride, I was able to climb right up a ~30% hard-packed dirt grade for a hundred yards or so while sitting on the saddle. Just powered right up the incline. No can do, these days. That yielded gearing of Low = sub-21g.i. and High = ~100. Much more appropriate for speedier travel, with a low that was low enough for solid legs without injuries.

Much older, these days, but still on a bike. I'm okay with that. I suppose I'd prefer gearing nearer to 12.5 to 13g.i., which would ensure getting up the steepest inclines I contend with. Almost slow enough to topple over, but it works. But I didn't want to go a big fat 1x to get it. Next stop, next time I need to re-do the gearing to go even lower ... probably an electric.

Liked for tenacity. Now, here's a guy who loves biking!
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Old 10-26-21, 12:13 PM
  #337  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
The new BMI scale appears to set a pretty low bar for fitness.

BMI has next to nothing to do with fitness. Without knowing the composition of that body mass, it's just a meaningless ratio.
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Old 10-26-21, 12:19 PM
  #338  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I get this nonsense a lot from people like burnthesheep who can't get their minds around someone doing something they can't. All he had to do to make it implausible was to ignore the fact that I'm on an actual bicycle with adjustable gears.

Next, someone will argue that my knees will explode or something.
But in a few posts down you counter a guy in this topic saying you self elect to do this cadence thing now due to a personal health condition. Quote "I'm not really in the mood to experiment with a drastic shift of load from my leg muscles to my CV system".

So, which is it? Is it "getting my mind around someone doing something they can't"? Or is it the medical issue you just claimed?

"Given that I just recovered (mostly) from the effects of bilateral pulmonary embolisms late last year, you'll forgive me if I'm not really in the mood to experiment with a drastic shift of load from my leg muscles to my CV system. The embolisms triggered a mild heart attack almost exactly one year ago, and I've managed to ride about 5300 miles this year after starting the early spring unable to ride 3 miles without getting winded."

It can't be both.

You're caught this time bud. It's time to pack it in.
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Old 10-26-21, 12:28 PM
  #339  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
The thread is largely about LDL and how he produces more power at a very low cadence
Actually, the thread was about what gearing we like, and then I started to get interrogated when I said I like old bikes because the gearing on new ones tends to be so low. I've made claims of speed and endurance, but I never actually said I produced x power, only that I had a sense of it that I enjoy riding in a high gear. I was not using the word "power" in its technical sense.

TBH, I didn't think your question was unfriendly. I do find people debating about how I ride really odd, though. And the personal attacks and the implication that I'm lying aren't really pleasant, but you haven't been any part of that. I'll refrain from naming names, but one of them is apparently ignorant of the most basic differences between running and cycling.

A second TBH--before I started hanging out on BF, I had no idea that the way I ride was so weird. It's always come naturally to me and served me well.
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Old 10-26-21, 12:31 PM
  #340  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
Any research to back that up?

A study titled, "The Effect of Pedaling Cadence on Skeletal Muscle Oxygenation During Cycling at Moderate Exercise Intensity" suggest the differential is closer to 15%

This paper puts it closer to 7% but the conditions of testing were different as were the type of subjects

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3918546/

Let's assume it a range of 7-15% power differential from most optimal to least optimal cadence. If so, not a trivial difference.
Formenti has two papers on tissue saturation, that one from 2019 and an earlier one in 2015. He shows that your muscles tend to have less oxygen saturation at say 90 rpm versus 40 or 50 rpm. One takeaway from these papers is donít pedal fast at lower work rates, because you are just making things harder for your body to maintain oxygenation.

I had seen that paper referenced in some articles about cadence, but I donít have the full paper, and the abstract says nothing about maximum external power. Do you have a link to the full paper?

Hereís one that actually is measuring the power-cadence function, basically in a time trial context.

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/159149503.pdf

See figure 4 for the modeled and measured Pmax as a function of cadence. This test is measuring maximum external power at a specified cadence.

I also like that other paper you mention, the one with the link. They compare riding a simulated three hour road race at two constant cadences, 80 and 100 rpm, it with variable load and then testing the subjectsí peak power after the ordeal.

The riders used 5-6% more energy doing the three hour ride at 100 vs 80. After the 80 rpm session they produced nearly 10% more peak power than after the 100 rpm session. But peak power was measured at their chosen cadence, which tended to be around 90 rpm.

Different protocols and different results. Mostly, Iím not riding at peak power and if at some point Iím riding at a cadence that affords 5-10% less peak power, I can still do my rides quite effectively.

Otto
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Old 10-26-21, 12:37 PM
  #341  
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This thread is like a TV soap opera of old. You miss a few episodes and you havenít really missed anything.
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Old 10-26-21, 12:55 PM
  #342  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
It can't be both.
Why not?
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Old 10-26-21, 01:00 PM
  #343  
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Originally Posted by ofajen View Post
Formenti has two papers on tissue saturation, that one from 2019 and an earlier one in 2015. He shows that your muscles tend to have less oxygen saturation at say 90 rpm versus 40 or 50 rpm. One takeaway from these papers is donít pedal fast at lower work rates, because you are just making things harder for your body to maintain oxygenation.

I had seen that paper referenced in some articles about cadence, but I donít have the full paper, and the abstract says nothing about maximum external power. Do you have a link to the full paper?

Hereís one that actually is measuring the power-cadence function, basically in a time trial context.

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/159149503.pdf

See figure 4 for the modeled and measured Pmax as a function of cadence. This test is measuring maximum external power at a specified cadence.

I also like that other paper you mention, the one with the link. They compare riding a simulated three hour road race at two constant cadences, 80 and 100 rpm, it with variable load and then testing the subjectsí peak power after the ordeal.

The riders used 5-6% more energy doing the three hour ride at 100 vs 80. After the 80 rpm session they produced nearly 10% more peak power than after the 100 rpm session. But peak power was measured at their chosen cadence, which tended to be around 90 rpm.

Different protocols and different results. Mostly, Iím not riding at peak power and if at some point Iím riding at a cadence that affords 5-10% less peak power, I can still do my rides quite effectively.

Otto
Interesting study, thanks for sharing it. Taking capillary blood isn't the easiest to get accurate results. I used to do a lot of blood lactate testing with the main objective of moving my 2 mmol L-1 level up higher and higher in power. I would take three samples for each power and discard any anomalies, my testing done on a trainer. The study used 3, 3.5, and 4.0 mmol L-1 levels, which is getting well into Tempo as a start point. 2.0 mmol L-1 is generally about the AT or maybe just into lactate accumulation. It would have been nice to see 2, 3, and 4 used. I tested from 1.5 to 5.5 and it merely confirmed that I prefer lower cadence at lower power and higher cadence at higher power. If I could use 10% less energy to make the same power, it is less I would have to eat, so, my focus was a bit different and not as rigorous but I am confident in my results.
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Old 10-26-21, 01:01 PM
  #344  
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My mountain bike 32 w/11-42 cassette it has 29x2.35 tires XT 10 speed
My commuter is 42 w/11-42 cassette it has 700x44 file tread tires SRAM 11 speed
My "gravel" bike is 40/30 w/13-30 cassette it has 700x42 knobby tires Campagnolo 10 speed <---this is subject to change my LBS is offering a hot deal on a 2x 46/36 w/11/32 that I'm not sure I can turn down
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Old 10-26-21, 01:03 PM
  #345  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
This thread is like a TV soap opera of old. You miss a few episodes and you havenít really missed anything.
Channel 5 has reruns on chain waxing
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Old 10-26-21, 01:15 PM
  #346  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
But in a few posts down you counter a guy in this topic saying you self elect to do this cadence thing now due to a personal health condition. Quote "I'm not really in the mood to experiment with a drastic shift of load from my leg muscles to my CV system".

So, which is it? Is it "getting my mind around someone doing something they can't"? Or is it the medical issue you just claimed?

"Given that I just recovered (mostly) from the effects of bilateral pulmonary embolisms late last year, you'll forgive me if I'm not really in the mood to experiment with a drastic shift of load from my leg muscles to my CV system. The embolisms triggered a mild heart attack almost exactly one year ago, and I've managed to ride about 5300 miles this year after starting the early spring unable to ride 3 miles without getting winded."

It can't be both.

You're caught this time bud. It's time to pack it in.

Have you figured out the difference between running and cycling yet, pal? You've got a lot of nerve coming back after making such a face plant fool of yourself.

That's just stupid. I do this "cadence thing" because it works for me and always has. The guy was claiming I only think what I do works because I won't try anything else, and no, TRYING something I don't do over the hundreds of miles I ride each week is not an experiment I care to try under my current circumstances. Who knows? I've never been 60 before, maybe my physiology changes. But mashing is still working for me quite nicely, thank you, and it's worked beautifully for me through a pretty difficult recovery. Point I was making is actually, it's perfectly absurd to think I'm going to change the basic way I ride just because a couple of self-important people seem to think they know what's better for me than I do. I've made no bones about the fact that it's the method I use because it suits my body, infirmities and all. The fact is you obviously can't do it because otherwise you would know it wasn't impossible as you say. The two supposedly contradictory assertions aren't even logically related, I do it because it suits me, and you can't do it aren't contradictory in the least. Nice try, Perry Mason wannabee.

Other than it bugs you that I can ride gears in a way you can't, I have no idea why you think you should be trying to prosecute me here or whatever it is you're so lamely doing.
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Old 10-26-21, 01:27 PM
  #347  
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Originally Posted by HTupolev View Post
Why not?
I can't take that response seriously. Sorry. "Oh, I'm doing this and you can't" and "I'm doing it due to injury/illness". Right.........
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Old 10-26-21, 02:08 PM
  #348  
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And the Troll thread makes it to 14 pages....
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Old 10-26-21, 02:24 PM
  #349  
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
And the Troll thread makes it to 14 pages....
How many pages are needed for it to go into syndication?
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Old 10-26-21, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
This thread is like a TV soap opera of old. You miss a few episodes and you havenít really missed anything.
LOL!
"I told you your gearing wouldn't work for your needs, but would you listen? No."
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