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It just doesnt make any sense

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It just doesnt make any sense

Old 11-03-21, 06:31 PM
  #351  
livedarklions
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
@kingston--I am surprised they sold him a hybrid for 50-miles rides. of course, road bikes all had really skinny tires back then. Sure, they would not try that today .... but here's the thing people never want to remember---and which I noted regarding @livedarklions: Some people are freaks. Some people are outliers.

We all know how generalizations work, yet there is so often someone trying to point out a specific exception claiming it invalidates the rule.

AS I SAID:

"Hybrid buyers tend not to want drop bars. That is the single most important determining characteristic ... a lot of riders tend to forget that for a lot of other riders ... " etc.

I have done long rides on a flat-bar bike. I certainly know it can be done. I also know why manufacturers sell bar-ends, ergo grips, Jones bars, H-bars, and the like. Riding for a few hours in one position is more tiring. I found myself sometimes leaning far forward and reach up from underneath the bars, or whatever, because holding one upper-body position for a few hours is more tiring. That is why they would sell your buddy a drop-bar bike.

If gravel bikes had been a thing back then, they never would have sold him a hybrid. I agree. But he is NOT the typical hybrid customer, never was and is not now.
There's a tendency to lump hybrids together like they're all for casual path riding, but the fitness category really is a good road bike flat bar setup.
The FX 3 I had had a really far forward body position for a flat bar. I didn't find maintaining the body position over distance difficult at all. The only real problem for distance was the lack of alternative hand positions.
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Old 11-03-21, 06:32 PM
  #352  
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Originally Posted by NumbersGuy View Post
Why is anyone forced to shift only at certain speeds? We don't have to shift into or out of one chainring only when in a specific rear sprocket. It generally makes more sense to be in the chainring that will support the range of speeds you expect to be riding at. It's not like we're often going sequentially through all the gears on one chainring and then moving to the next.
Ummmm ... that is what Kingston is talking about. His 3x setup does this better than his 2x setup when he's riding 400k at a 25 kph average.
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Old 11-03-21, 06:44 PM
  #353  
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Originally Posted by NumbersGuy View Post
I sure wish I had such a varied and exciting life such as yours, with the time to rack up 30k+ posts on this forum. You sir really are impressive….
Thanks. I once risked a lot to put myself in a position that panned out like I hoped it would and allowed me to take a lot of time off and delve into the touring world in ‘99 and ‘00. Then I got my former job back and drifted away from the activity for a long time as I returned to a more conventional lifestyle, eventually picking it back up again in ‘08 after nothing but road riding (including some supported tours). The pendulum has definitely swung back towards loaded touring. These days, I try to take one two-week tour, one one-week tour and three or four long weekend trips every year. But I still find time to ride my super fly, custom ti road machine with a 2x.

BTW…Being a regular contributor to the Addiction thread and the Touring forum tends to inflate one’s post count. The latter often results in a lot of follow up questions about subjects such as routes and logistics.

Last edited by indyfabz; 11-03-21 at 06:52 PM.
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Old 11-03-21, 06:45 PM
  #354  
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Originally Posted by NumbersGuy View Post
Then there's the *GASP* pedaling in a wide range of cadences idea that seems to be incomprehensible to most here.
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Oi!!! Why do people have such a problem with other people having different Preferences??? !!! ???
For the same reason they can't understand that other people ride at different speeds in different conditions -- they can't see outside their own little bubble.
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Old 11-03-21, 06:53 PM
  #355  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Not so much.

Many people that desire tight gearing, like myself, want it for situations in which we're trying to sustain output at the limits of our capabilities. When you're trying to hold on to a wheel, or an interval, or shave a second off of a PR, etc, and you're at the edge of cracking, a 2-tooth gap might be too much - one asks too much of your legs, the other too much of your cardio, no happy/painful medium.

No one needs tight gearing for noodling around, so don't pat yourself on the back too vigorously.

I feel like you were making your point well right up until the "noodling around" thing which seems to denigrate other kinds of riding.

Honest question-- why does an interval require a specific gear? Can't you run yourself ragged in just about any gear? It'll just be at different speeds. Not trying to argue with you, I just don't get that one.
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Old 11-03-21, 06:58 PM
  #356  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Also .... it is about ten times harder to push a loaded touring bike up a hill as to ride it, however slowly. The bike wants to tip over all the time, and you spend half your energy trying to balance it. It is a lot easier to pedal at a steady 4 mph than to push a steady two .... which means an hour's climb might be three hour's push, and you will be twice as tired when you reach the crest .... and then still maybe have 50 miles to ride to your campsite.
Yes, much easier to ride at a very slow pace than try to wrestle a fully loaded touring bike/mountain bike/etc up a steep unpaved incline. Especially more difficult if you are wearing some type of cleated bike shoe.
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Old 11-03-21, 07:01 PM
  #357  
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Originally Posted by SkinGriz View Post
Bikes cover a wide range of styles and uses.
Bikes are ridden at different speeds, different inclines, and different terrain.
Some improvements might not be better for most riders.
It is impossible to say 1x, 2x, or 3x is better. Only which one you like more.

Some like 1x1.

Also, the motors are definitely not standard issue, so one can have a completely different way of approaching the same terrain. As Maelochs notes, he might ride the same terrain differently on consecutive days.
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Old 11-03-21, 07:07 PM
  #358  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I feel like you were making your point well right up until the "noodling around" thing which seems to denigrate other kinds of riding.

Honest question-- why does an interval require a specific gear? Can't you run yourself ragged in just about any gear? It'll just be at different speeds. Not trying to argue with you, I just don't get that one.
question wasn’t for me but I’ll answer. Intervals can require specific gears, like if I’m doing a workout where I’m trying to average 265w on an interval, I may sometimes find one gear requires me to spin way faster than I really want to to get to the target power, so a bit too easy of a gear, but the next higher gear on my 8 speed road bike could have me with a lower cadence than I like to maintain. It’s not always, but sometimes there’s a desire to have a tighter range to dial in the right combo of power and cadence.
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Old 11-03-21, 07:42 PM
  #359  
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Originally Posted by SpeedyBlueBiker View Post
Yes, much easier to ride at a very slow pace than try to wrestle a fully loaded touring bike/mountain bike/etc up a steep unpaved incline. Especially more difficult if you are wearing some type of cleated bike shoe.
I pulled muscles in my foot back in September while pushing up a steep section of paved road. About.62 miles that averaged over 12%. I was near the end of a two-week tour and didn’t have the legs at that point. I was wearing shoes with recessed SPD cleats. I did not push the entire .62 mules but still messed up my foot. Too much potential traffic to “deliver the paper.” Pushing a loaded bike really sucks.
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Old 11-03-21, 08:20 PM
  #360  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I feel like you were making your point well right up until the "noodling around" thing which seems to denigrate other kinds of riding.

Honest question-- why does an interval require a specific gear? Can't you run yourself ragged in just about any gear? It'll just be at different speeds. Not trying to argue with you, I just don't get that one.
A lot of people that train do polarized training and spend most of their time on a bike noodling around (80/20, is very common). I'm a fantastic and frequent noodler and take no offense to my statement.

As far as running yourself ragged in any gear, but at different speeds... no, not quite. Assuming flat terrain and consistent position, traveling at a certain speed is going to require a specific amount of power regardless of gearing and cadence, whether that's high torque and low cadence or low torque and high cadence or anywhere in between. The important this is that if you change the speed, you change the power requirements and are no longer hitting the prescribed interval.

While lower intensity intervals (sweet spot/quasi-noodling) can give you a lot of leeway in selecting a balance between torque and cadence, intervals at/above threshold can, and often should, by design, tax your system as a whole, musculature and cardio, to a point close to failure. Imagine a flat ground speed that's doable but challenging for you to hold for 5 minutes... and then do it 5 times in a row with a minute of rest between each effort. By the middle of the third effort, you should be absolutely preoccupied with monitoring and debating whether your legs hurt more than your lungs burn, and that's where tight gearing comes in. If you can actually go to a cog that's either two teeth smaller or two teeth larger, and still complete the series of intervals, then you're probably going too easy and you need to up the intensity.
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Old 11-03-21, 10:59 PM
  #361  
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High end hybrid?
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Old 11-04-21, 01:18 AM
  #362  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
The only real problem for distance was the lack of alternative hand positions.
Yes .... same difficulty I noticed on my aggressively set-up Bridgestone (which was considered an MTB back in the day, but would now be considered a "hybrid.")

The hand position is the Only thing making a flat-bar bike, per se, harder to ride on really long rides. Otherwise it is no different than a drop-bar bike.

And no, not everyone who buys a hybrid rides less than 30 miles at a clip. You and I think also Canklecat both did really long rides on hybrids .... but again, you would be exceptions to the norm. Not every hybrid has tall riser bars, a sofa saddle, flat plastic pedals, and a basket in front .... or a radio, a cup-holder on the bars, streamers, whatever. Some are used for serious urban commuting, where low-travel shocks and and a slightly more upright stance improve performance and safety. But I maintain my claim that Most hybrid buyers are not looking for peak performance or long distance.

I think the language used to market these bikes and the fact that manufacturers never stress how light the bikes are, shows that the manufacturers pretty much know the general audience for the product. "Comfort" and "a wide range of gears to handle any terrain" are generally marketing terms associated only with hybrid bikes and luxury SUVs.

IMO.

Last edited by Maelochs; 11-04-21 at 01:23 AM.
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Old 11-04-21, 02:43 AM
  #363  
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Originally Posted by NumbersGuy View Post
The talk here of needing such and such gear range seems to be based on the idea that the cyclist can only pedal in a very narrow range of cadence
Tight gear spacing isn't about staying within a narrow cadence range. It's about being able to fine-tune your torque and cadence to whatever your legs currently want. You can leverage that to maintain constant cadence within a narrow range of variation, but nobody actually rides like this except for newbies who are staring at their cadence sensor because an "expert" rider they know told them to hold a certain cadence.

Actually...
I guess that's why I never got into group rides

...group rides are a great example of where multiple gears are useful because they allow you to change cadence. Even when gradually rotating through a steady paceline on the flats, it's usually beneficial to have slightly lower gearing during a pull (slightly increase cadence when you have to increase power so that you don't need to increase your pedaling torque very much) and slightly higher gearing when in the draft (improve recovery by reducing the amount of effort being spent turning the legs in circles).

Originally Posted by nslckevin View Post
The standard low gearing for racing at the time was too big for them.
It was often too big for the guys as well, not that they'd admit to it.

When compact cranks and slightly lower rear gearing (28 tooth cogs) came out, that killed most of the market for non-touring triples.
When was that?

Here are scans of a couple of advertisements for derailleur systems, from before the first world war, featuring big cogs of more than 30 teeth:
https://www.disraeligears.co.uk/site...11_scan_2.html
https://www.disraeligears.co.uk/site...l_d_arlay.html
Here's a bicycle from 1947 featuring a double crankset with chainrings of 40-24 or thereabouts:
https://janheine.files.wordpress.com...sech1147_0.jpg
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Old 11-04-21, 03:07 AM
  #364  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post

Honest question-- why does an interval require a specific gear?
It doesn't require any specific gear and it doesn't require multiple gears...Intervals can be done on a singlespeed or fixed gear and you can choose whatever gear ratio you want..
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Old 11-04-21, 03:27 AM
  #365  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I feel like you were making your point well right up until the "noodling around" thing which seems to denigrate other kinds of riding.

Honest question-- why does an interval require a specific gear? Can't you run yourself ragged in just about any gear? It'll just be at different speeds. Not trying to argue with you, I just don't get that one.
Honest questions?

1. Have you ever trained for competitive cycling races or events?

2. Have you done any research on training for cycling?

When you say "ragged", I take it that you have zero experience. Yet, others here have a lot of training experience and you challenge them. Here is my explanation.

Let's use the 1x 12 speed cassette. 10, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 21, 24, 28, 32, 38, and 44T. Shifting between the 11 to the 13 is around 18% change. In those gears and on the flats, almost all of the resistance to be overcome is the wind and the power to increase speed rises to the cubic of power. This means the effective differential between the 11 and 13 cog is much, much higher and more noticeable than a mere 18% due to aerodynamic drag. WRT to physiology, certain muscle types and training effects are more effective at certain cadences. At noodle speeds, the wind and frictional forces are about equal and for those who ride in the 10-15 mph range, you just can't understand what I am saying.
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Old 11-04-21, 03:31 AM
  #366  
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So .... I guess we have confirmed that the road 1x group is useless---except as a thread-starter .....
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Old 11-04-21, 04:19 AM
  #367  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
So .... I guess we have confirmed that the road 1x group is useless---except as a thread-starter .....
It depends how narrow you really "need" your road gearing to be. Somehow I manage to do all my interval training at specific power and cadence with both a compact double 2x11 and a 1x12 MTB. I'm about 90% sold on a road 1x13 at this point. I'm going to simulate it on my trainer over winter and see how I feel. I'm not foreseeing a problem to be honest. My only slight concern is the wider spacing at the mid-lower end of the cassette, but it doesn't bother me on my 1x MTB.
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Old 11-04-21, 04:26 AM
  #368  
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Lol ..... you don't ever need to worry about getting stabbed if you can always miss the point like that ... .....

I was just joking.

I wouldn't eve go for a road 1x because I am not a strong climber and even though I live in Flatahoma, there are ripples which require me to work a little .... and the jumps are too big for comfort.

Interval training isn't the issue. It is hills, wind, and the benefits I personally get from having more gear options.
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Old 11-04-21, 04:36 AM
  #369  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Lol ..... you don't ever need to worry about getting stabbed if you can always miss the point like that ... .....

I was just joking.

I wouldn't eve go for a road 1x because I am not a strong climber and even though I live in Flatahoma, there are ripples which require me to work a little .... and the jumps are too big for comfort.

Interval training isn't the issue. It is hills, wind, and the benefits I personally get from having more gear options.
LOL, I was 50/50 about whether or not you were joking!

For sure 1x is not for everyone on the road. But it is getting more feasible as new options trickle on to the market (like 1x13). Coming from a strong MTB background I've really come to appreciate the benefits of a 1x drivetrain and so I'm naturally keen to go that way on my road bike. But only if it works. FDs are nowhere near as much of a burden on road bikes as they were on MTBs.

As for 3x. Dead to me.
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Old 11-04-21, 04:59 AM
  #370  
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Yes, 1x13 for everyone. How many cyclists can afford that bill of sale.

I'm converting one of my bikes to 12 speed etap and it is probably going to run me close to $4k
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Old 11-04-21, 05:08 AM
  #371  
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For $4K I would buy a bike that had it and swap the drive trains.
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Old 11-04-21, 05:17 AM
  #372  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
Shimano produces them. You can buy triple cranks in EU but not USA. It is a marketing thing. SRAM especially is shoving 1X and weird gearing down our throats.
Sugino produces some very nice triples. I have the XD600 on two of my bikes.
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Old 11-04-21, 05:19 AM
  #373  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Yes .... same difficulty I noticed on my aggressively set-up Bridgestone (which was considered an MTB back in the day, but would now be considered a "hybrid.")

The hand position is the Only thing making a flat-bar bike, per se, harder to ride on really long rides. Otherwise it is no different than a drop-bar bike.

And no, not everyone who buys a hybrid rides less than 30 miles at a clip. You and I think also Canklecat both did really long rides on hybrids .... but again, you would be exceptions to the norm. Not every hybrid has tall riser bars, a sofa saddle, flat plastic pedals, and a basket in front .... or a radio, a cup-holder on the bars, streamers, whatever. Some are used for serious urban commuting, where low-travel shocks and and a slightly more upright stance improve performance and safety. But I maintain my claim that Most hybrid buyers are not looking for peak performance or long distance.

I think the language used to market these bikes and the fact that manufacturers never stress how light the bikes are, shows that the manufacturers pretty much know the general audience for the product. "Comfort" and "a wide range of gears to handle any terrain" are generally marketing terms associated only with hybrid bikes and luxury SUVs.

IMO.
My quibble with you is that you think the demand for the hybrids is shaping the marketing, and I think you're underestimating the extent that it's the other way around. The really low end producers seized on the "hybrid" label to the extent that the label has become synonymous with low performance bikes and the quality companies fled the label.

The concept of a flat bar road bike is and always has been sound, there are people who want to ride fast and/or far who are more comfortable with a flat bar, and I don't think that number is small. You now have the same concept being marketed as "flat bar road bikes" and, basically, as commuter bikes.

Not sure what your point was with this anyway. All I said is you really can't adequately describe the rise and fall of the demand for triples without discussing the rise and fall of the hybrid. What does that have to do with "peak performance or long distance?" News flash- the vast majority of all bicycle buyers aren't really interested in peak performance or long distance. It's a bf bias to write such people out of the conversation.

​​​​​​
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Old 11-04-21, 05:23 AM
  #374  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
So .... I guess we have confirmed that the road 1x group is useless---except as a thread-starter .....
Incorrect.
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Old 11-04-21, 05:26 AM
  #375  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
For $4K I would buy a bike that had it and swap the drive trains.
Wow....show me a link. Closest I found was a former pro bike (not too bashed up) for $6500. Also, I don't buy the low end stuff because it wears out with heavy miles or heavy loads.
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