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Cycling and hand signals

Old 08-02-21, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by chaadster
Pointing right to turn right is dumb AF. The American road code for all vehicular traffic is left arm bent 90° and I see no sane reason bikes should be exempt or different.
I have spoken to too many people who have no clue what the left arm up signal means. While on a bicycle, I have actually had a driver tell me they thought I was going to turn left. Pointing the direction I intend on turning, however, seems to be understood by even the dumbest drivers.

I agree that drivers ed should be more rigorous and perhaps a short refresher course online before renewing might be in order.
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Old 08-02-21, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Biketiger
I am biking along a paved multi-use trail today and I see a rider coming towards me in the opposite lane. About 10 yards away he raises his right arm skyward. Clearly he is signaling a turn but I am confused as to which way. I'm thinking maybe he wants to go left which would cross my path but still at a safe distance. He turns to his right.
I appreciate his use of signals (most people don't) but I was really confused about the straight up arm. If he wanted to go right, why not just stick his arm out to the right? A signal anyone could accurately interpret.
He was waving at you and will soon make a thread here about what a jerk you were for not waving back.
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Old 08-02-21, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by chaadster
Pointing right to turn right is dumb AF. The American road code for all vehicular traffic is left arm bent 90° and I see no sane reason bikes should be exempt or different.
Nope. From the 2000 UVC

§ 11-606 — Method of giving hand-and-arm signals

All hand—and-arm signals shall be given from the left side of the vehicle in the following manner and such signals shall indicate as follows:

1. Left turn — Hand and arm extended horizontally.
2. Right turn — Hand and arm extended upward.
3. Stop or decrease speed—Hand and arm extended downward.

Notwithstanding the foregoing provisions, a person operating a bicycle may give a right turn signal by extending the right hand and arm horizontally and to the right side of the bicycle.
Originally Posted by chaadster
Signaling differently because you can is not a good reason.

Signaling in accordance with established and recognized protocol is a good reason to use the left arm. Because we ride with traffic, usually to the right, which puts our left arm in the centerline view for vehicles following, behind, and alongside, is a good reason to use the left.

Making up signals because you can is childish.
And extended right arm for right turns has been “established and recognized protocol” for at least 20 years. Just because you didn’t get the memo doesn’t mean that the use of a right arm for right turns is “made up”.

Originally Posted by chaadster
Kinda.

Motor cycles are motor vehicles with the same ability as cyclists to use both arms, but I believe they’re required to hand signal just as cars are.
Not “kinda” at all. Motorcycles have the throttle on the right. Letting go of the throttle to signal a turn would have some detrimental consequences. But, as has been pointed out above, motorcycles are supposed to have turn signals if they were made after the 1970s.
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Old 08-02-21, 09:29 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by chaadster
You’re not supposed to be waving or pointing; the signals are static position with all fingers extended.
I wouldn't be waving, but if I did just raise my left hand up, motorists around here would assume I'm waving.
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Old 08-02-21, 09:37 AM
  #55  
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Old 08-02-21, 09:42 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by chaadster
Kinda.

Motor cycles are motor vehicles with the same ability as cyclists to use both arms, but I believe they’re required to hand signal just as cars are.
Seems your MI drivers manual says it's optional which method they use:


https://www.michigan.gov/documents/wedmk_16312_7.pdf
pdf page 70, manual page 56


This is such an easy thing to check in any state.

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Old 08-02-21, 09:43 AM
  #57  
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“May” is neither must nor an obviation of the fact that all motor vehicles have only one shared set of hand signals. That bicycles *may* use a different hand signal for right turns in some states does not mean doing so is better, but it does make bicycles the exception. If you think unique signaling is more clear on the road, go ahead and be that guy. I still think it’s smarter to use and reinforce uniform practice which all vehicle operators should have been trained on,
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Old 08-02-21, 09:51 AM
  #58  
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Old 08-02-21, 09:53 AM
  #59  
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I always thought you used your left hand at 90 so you could keep your right on the rear break in case there was a suprise around the corner. That being said, I always use my right.
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Old 08-02-21, 10:01 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Iride01
Seems your MI drivers manual says it's optional which method they use:


https://www.michigan.gov/documents/wedmk_16312_7.pdf
pdf page 70, manual page 56


This is such an easy thing to check in any state.
I don’t think so. That does not say what motorcyclists must do, but rather is an advisory to drivers for what to look for in hand signals from a “motorcyclist, scooter operator, or bicyclist.”

As stated by the MI Secretary of State which oversees licensing and endorsements, right hand up for right turns is the “proper” signal for motorcyclists:

https://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,4670,...7468--,00.html

I’ve not had a motorcycle endorsement since 1996, FWIW.
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Old 08-02-21, 10:06 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by landesmd
I always thought you used your left hand at 90 so you could keep your right on the rear break in case there was a suprise around the corner. That being said, I always use my right.
I use my right arm to signal to my riding group— e.g. pull through, hazards, coming in— and my left to signal my intentions to motor vehicle traffic, eg. Turning, waving on to pass, etc.
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Old 08-02-21, 10:16 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by chaadster
I don’t think so. That does not say what motorcyclists must do, but rather is an advisory to drivers for what to look for in hand signals from a “motorcyclist, scooter operator, or bicyclist.”

As stated by the MI Secretary of State which oversees licensing and endorsements, right hand up for right turns is the “proper” signal for motorcyclists:

https://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,4670,...7468--,00.html

I’ve not had a motorcycle endorsement since 1996, FWIW.
That’s for motorcycles. From the Michigan Vehicle Code on signaling turns.

257.648 Operation of vehicle or bicycle; signals for stopping or turning; signal lamp or mechanical signal device on commercial motor vehicle; violation as civil infraction.Sec. 648.
(4) When a person is operating a bicycle and signal is given by means of the hand and arm, the operator shall signal as follows:
(a) For a left turn, the operator shall extend his or her left hand and arm horizontally.
(b) For a right turn, the operator shall extend his or her left hand and arm upward or shall extend his or her right hand and arm horizontally.
(c) To stop or decrease speed, the operator shall extend his or her left hand and arm downward.
Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t mean that a right hand turn signal on a bicycle is not allowed nor is it unsafe. Motorists are generally stupid but not so stupid that they can’t figure out what is meant when a cyclist points to the right.

Please note the language. “Shall” is used in both statements of how a bicyclist can signal a turn.

You remind me of a guy that lectured me about using my right hand ages ago…before the right hand signal was legal (but logical) in Colorado. He told me that my right turn signal “didn’t mean poop (but saltier)”. He then proceeded to ride across an intersection, salmon down the road, and turn left into a one-way turn. But my turn signals were the problem. Riiiiight.
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Old 08-02-21, 10:28 AM
  #63  
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Old 08-02-21, 10:30 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
That’s for motorcycles. From the Michigan Vehicle Code on signaling turns.



Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t mean that a right hand turn signal on a bicycle is not allowed nor is it unsafe. Motorists are generally stupid but not so stupid that they can’t figure out what is meant when a cyclist points to the right.

Please note the language. “Shall” is used in both statements of how a bicyclist can signal a turn.

You remind me of a guy that lectured me about using my right hand ages ago…before the right hand signal was legal (but logical) in Colorado. He told me that my right turn signal “didn’t mean poop (but saltier)”. He then proceeded to ride across an intersection, salmon down the road, and turn left into a one-way turn. But my turn signals were the problem. Riiiiight.
Yeah, I was talking about motorcycles in that comment, so good on you for following along! Bravo!

Regarding pointing right on bicycles, I never said it was unsafe, not allowed, nor that motorists can’t figure out what it means, so bravo again, we’re in accordance.

Pointing right to turn right on a bicycle is dumb AF, however.
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Old 08-02-21, 10:37 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by chaadster
Pointing right to turn right on a bicycle is dumb AF, however.
Just like having a right turn signal on the right side of a vehicle is dumb AF, amiright? They should have the signal on the left, more in line with the drivers behind, bent at a 90° and pointing up - totally makes more sense.
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Old 08-02-21, 10:43 AM
  #66  
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Maybe we should encourage our state legislatures to enact a standard practice that can be incorporated into drivers license training. Then we can have it spread via public service announcements and then drivers will know what our intentions are when the pass us at a safe distance while we all share the road.
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Old 08-02-21, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by chaadster
Yeah, I was talking about motorcycles in that comment, so good on you for following along! Bravo!
Hum? You seemed to mention “bicycles” in that post. That’s why I quoted you in my post. Still moving those goalposts, aren’t you?

Pointing right to turn right on a bicycle is dumb AF, however.
That’s just your (very wrong) opinion. The UVC, most state legislatures, and most of the bicycle community don’t think so. Who is the outlier here? When cars didn’t come with signals, the left only signal made sense. For motorcyclists who have to control the throttle, the left only signal makes sense. For bicyclists, the left only signal is far dumber than using a right hand to clearly indicate your intentions, especially in an age when hand signals are only used by bicyclists anyway.

Frankly, I find using the left hand signal to be entirely wrong for the way we ride bicycles and how we make right turns. It throws your body out of line with the corner and doesn’t allow you to properly control the bike in the corner. I’ve been using the right hand signal for more than 30 years and have never had a motorist that was confused about my intentions.
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Old 08-02-21, 10:44 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by chaadster
“May” is neither must nor an obviation of the fact that all motor vehicles have only one shared set of hand signals. That bicycles *may* use a different hand signal for right turns in some states does not mean doing so is better, but it does make bicycles the exception. If you think unique signaling is more clear on the road, go ahead and be that guy. I still think it’s smarter to use and reinforce uniform practice which all vehicle operators should have been trained on,

For all practical purposes, bicyclists are unique because they're the only ones still using hand signals at all.

Vehicle operators ARE being trained to recognize the right hand signal from bicyclists. "Should have been" is a silly statement.

Gotta tell you, in 50+ years of riding a bicycle, I could probably count on one finger the number of times I've seen anyone use the left-arm right turn signal on a bicycle. It's counter-intuitive and awkward. I see people throw their right arm signals from time to time.

I honestly don't remember seeing a motorcycle driver throwing any kind of hand signal since the 1980s, and I've never seen a car driver use hand signals ever.

So, are you deliberately doing a Grampa Simpson imitation?
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Old 08-02-21, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Gotta tell you, in 50+ years of riding a bicycle, I could probably count on one finger the number of times I've seen anyone use the left-arm right turn signal on a bicycle. It's counter-intuitive and awkward.
Lots of cyclists where I live and ride, yet I still see it so infrequently that I have to pause and interpret for half a second when I do see it - just what you want out of effective communication at speed.
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Old 08-02-21, 10:55 AM
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Old 08-02-21, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by chaadster
“May” is neither must nor an obviation of the fact that all motor vehicles have only one shared set of hand signals. That bicycles *may* use a different hand signal for right turns in some states does not mean doing so is better, but it does make bicycles the exception. If you think unique signaling is more clear on the road, go ahead and be that guy. I still think it’s smarter to use and reinforce uniform practice which all vehicle operators should have been trained on,
Especially as a cyclist sharing the road with vehicles that can squash me pretty easily, I think it's smarter to use signals which are most easily understood by drivers of those vehicles. I really don't want to gamble my safety on whether or not the driver of a 3 ton SUV remembers hand signals that they were required to learn 2 decades ago, and haven't ever used. Pointing right with my right arm for a right turn is petty unambiguous. Yes, I will be that guy, because getting home safely is a top priority for me.
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Old 08-02-21, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by chaadster
“May” is neither must nor an obviation of the fact that all motor vehicles have only one shared set of hand signals. That bicycles *may* use a different hand signal for right turns in some states does not mean doing so is better, but it does make bicycles the exception. If you think unique signaling is more clear on the road, go ahead and be that guy. I still think it’s smarter to use and reinforce uniform practice which all vehicle operators should have been trained on,
"Trained on" for some folks >40 years ago, and which no car or motorcycle uses anymore.

Funny thing is, this whole thread started because the OP had NEVER SEEN ANYONE SIGNAL THAT WAY, and had no clue what it meant, which kind of undermines the whole universality argument right out of the box.
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Old 08-02-21, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by chaadster
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Says the man living on Asteroid 325. Now I have to go get my irony meter fixed.
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Old 08-02-21, 11:08 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by chaadster
I use my right arm to signal to my riding group— e.g. pull through, hazards, coming in— and my left to signal my intentions to motor vehicle traffic, eg. Turning, waving on to pass, etc.
What if the hazard is to your left?
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Old 08-02-21, 11:09 AM
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BTW, one of the times I use the 'right arm pointing' to signal a right turn is when I have to cross a freeway off-ramp, when traffic coming off is crawling. Pretty sure that the drivers I'm signaling that I want to pass in front of them wouldn't have a clue what I wanted if I raised my left arm.
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