Cycling and hand signals
#51
Over the hill
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 24,340
Bikes: Giant Defy, Giant Revolt
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 987 Post(s)
Liked 1,186 Times
in
681 Posts
I agree that drivers ed should be more rigorous and perhaps a short refresher course online before renewing might be in order.
__________________
It's like riding a bicycle
It's like riding a bicycle
Likes For urbanknight:
#52
Over the hill
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 24,340
Bikes: Giant Defy, Giant Revolt
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 987 Post(s)
Liked 1,186 Times
in
681 Posts
I am biking along a paved multi-use trail today and I see a rider coming towards me in the opposite lane. About 10 yards away he raises his right arm skyward. Clearly he is signaling a turn but I am confused as to which way. I'm thinking maybe he wants to go left which would cross my path but still at a safe distance. He turns to his right.
I appreciate his use of signals (most people don't) but I was really confused about the straight up arm. If he wanted to go right, why not just stick his arm out to the right? A signal anyone could accurately interpret.
I appreciate his use of signals (most people don't) but I was really confused about the straight up arm. If he wanted to go right, why not just stick his arm out to the right? A signal anyone could accurately interpret.
__________________
It's like riding a bicycle
It's like riding a bicycle
Likes For urbanknight:
#53
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,274
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 150 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6147 Post(s)
Liked 4,092 Times
in
2,325 Posts
§ 11-606 — Method of giving hand-and-arm signals
All hand—and-arm signals shall be given from the left side of the vehicle in the following manner and such signals shall indicate as follows:1. Left turn — Hand and arm extended horizontally.
2. Right turn — Hand and arm extended upward.
3. Stop or decrease speed—Hand and arm extended downward.
Notwithstanding the foregoing provisions, a person operating a bicycle may give a right turn signal by extending the right hand and arm horizontally and to the right side of the bicycle.
Signaling differently because you can is not a good reason.
Signaling in accordance with established and recognized protocol is a good reason to use the left arm. Because we ride with traffic, usually to the right, which puts our left arm in the centerline view for vehicles following, behind, and alongside, is a good reason to use the left.
Making up signals because you can is childish.
Signaling in accordance with established and recognized protocol is a good reason to use the left arm. Because we ride with traffic, usually to the right, which puts our left arm in the centerline view for vehicles following, behind, and alongside, is a good reason to use the left.
Making up signals because you can is childish.
Not “kinda” at all. Motorcycles have the throttle on the right. Letting go of the throttle to signal a turn would have some detrimental consequences. But, as has been pointed out above, motorcycles are supposed to have turn signals if they were made after the 1970s.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Last edited by cyccommute; 08-02-21 at 09:40 AM.
Likes For cyccommute:
#55
Palmer
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 8,576
Bikes: Mike Melton custom, 1982 Stumpjumper, Alex Moulton AM, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i8, 2021 Motobecane Turino 1x12
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1644 Post(s)
Liked 1,785 Times
in
1,041 Posts
In before the lock!
Robert Storm Petersen, 1940s, Denmark:
Greg Siple classic:
Robert Storm Petersen, 1940s, Denmark:
Greg Siple classic:
#56
I'm good to go!
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 14,810
Bikes: Tarmac Disc Comp Di2 - 2020
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6100 Post(s)
Liked 4,732 Times
in
3,262 Posts
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/wedmk_16312_7.pdf
pdf page 70, manual page 56
This is such an easy thing to check in any state.
Last edited by Iride01; 08-02-21 at 09:46 AM.
#57
Thread Killer
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,373
Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3078 Post(s)
Liked 1,631 Times
in
1,005 Posts
“May” is neither must nor an obviation of the fact that all motor vehicles have only one shared set of hand signals. That bicycles *may* use a different hand signal for right turns in some states does not mean doing so is better, but it does make bicycles the exception. If you think unique signaling is more clear on the road, go ahead and be that guy. I still think it’s smarter to use and reinforce uniform practice which all vehicle operators should have been trained on,
#58
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,505
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 353 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20791 Post(s)
Liked 9,436 Times
in
4,663 Posts
What's that's horrible racket?! Is that the sound of goal posts being dragged about?!
Likes For WhyFi:
#59
Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I always thought you used your left hand at 90 so you could keep your right on the rear break in case there was a suprise around the corner. That being said, I always use my right.
#60
Thread Killer
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,373
Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3078 Post(s)
Liked 1,631 Times
in
1,005 Posts
Seems your MI drivers manual says it's optional which method they use:
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/wedmk_16312_7.pdf
pdf page 70, manual page 56
This is such an easy thing to check in any state.
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/wedmk_16312_7.pdf
pdf page 70, manual page 56
This is such an easy thing to check in any state.
As stated by the MI Secretary of State which oversees licensing and endorsements, right hand up for right turns is the “proper” signal for motorcyclists:
https://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,4670,...7468--,00.html
I’ve not had a motorcycle endorsement since 1996, FWIW.
#61
Thread Killer
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,373
Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3078 Post(s)
Liked 1,631 Times
in
1,005 Posts
I use my right arm to signal to my riding group— e.g. pull through, hazards, coming in— and my left to signal my intentions to motor vehicle traffic, eg. Turning, waving on to pass, etc.
#62
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,274
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 150 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6147 Post(s)
Liked 4,092 Times
in
2,325 Posts
I don’t think so. That does not say what motorcyclists must do, but rather is an advisory to drivers for what to look for in hand signals from a “motorcyclist, scooter operator, or bicyclist.”
As stated by the MI Secretary of State which oversees licensing and endorsements, right hand up for right turns is the “proper” signal for motorcyclists:
https://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,4670,...7468--,00.html
I’ve not had a motorcycle endorsement since 1996, FWIW.
As stated by the MI Secretary of State which oversees licensing and endorsements, right hand up for right turns is the “proper” signal for motorcyclists:
https://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,4670,...7468--,00.html
I’ve not had a motorcycle endorsement since 1996, FWIW.
257.648 Operation of vehicle or bicycle; signals for stopping or turning; signal lamp or mechanical signal device on commercial motor vehicle; violation as civil infraction.Sec. 648.
(4) When a person is operating a bicycle and signal is given by means of the hand and arm, the operator shall signal as follows:
(a) For a left turn, the operator shall extend his or her left hand and arm horizontally.
(b) For a right turn, the operator shall extend his or her left hand and arm upward or shall extend his or her right hand and arm horizontally.
(c) To stop or decrease speed, the operator shall extend his or her left hand and arm downward.
(4) When a person is operating a bicycle and signal is given by means of the hand and arm, the operator shall signal as follows:
(a) For a left turn, the operator shall extend his or her left hand and arm horizontally.
(b) For a right turn, the operator shall extend his or her left hand and arm upward or shall extend his or her right hand and arm horizontally.
(c) To stop or decrease speed, the operator shall extend his or her left hand and arm downward.
Please note the language. “Shall” is used in both statements of how a bicyclist can signal a turn.
You remind me of a guy that lectured me about using my right hand ages ago…before the right hand signal was legal (but logical) in Colorado. He told me that my right turn signal “didn’t mean poop (but saltier)”. He then proceeded to ride across an intersection, salmon down the road, and turn left into a one-way turn. But my turn signals were the problem. Riiiiight.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Likes For ksryder:
#64
Thread Killer
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,373
Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3078 Post(s)
Liked 1,631 Times
in
1,005 Posts
That’s for motorcycles. From the Michigan Vehicle Code on signaling turns.
Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t mean that a right hand turn signal on a bicycle is not allowed nor is it unsafe. Motorists are generally stupid but not so stupid that they can’t figure out what is meant when a cyclist points to the right.
Please note the language. “Shall” is used in both statements of how a bicyclist can signal a turn.
You remind me of a guy that lectured me about using my right hand ages ago…before the right hand signal was legal (but logical) in Colorado. He told me that my right turn signal “didn’t mean poop (but saltier)”. He then proceeded to ride across an intersection, salmon down the road, and turn left into a one-way turn. But my turn signals were the problem. Riiiiight.
Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t mean that a right hand turn signal on a bicycle is not allowed nor is it unsafe. Motorists are generally stupid but not so stupid that they can’t figure out what is meant when a cyclist points to the right.
Please note the language. “Shall” is used in both statements of how a bicyclist can signal a turn.
You remind me of a guy that lectured me about using my right hand ages ago…before the right hand signal was legal (but logical) in Colorado. He told me that my right turn signal “didn’t mean poop (but saltier)”. He then proceeded to ride across an intersection, salmon down the road, and turn left into a one-way turn. But my turn signals were the problem. Riiiiight.
Regarding pointing right on bicycles, I never said it was unsafe, not allowed, nor that motorists can’t figure out what it means, so bravo again, we’re in accordance.
Pointing right to turn right on a bicycle is dumb AF, however.
#65
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,505
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 353 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20791 Post(s)
Liked 9,436 Times
in
4,663 Posts
Just like having a right turn signal on the right side of a vehicle is dumb AF, amiright? They should have the signal on the left, more in line with the drivers behind, bent at a 90° and pointing up - totally makes more sense.
Likes For WhyFi:
#66
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: The banks of the River Charles
Posts: 2,020
Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease, 2020 Seven Evergreen, 2019 Honey Allroads Ti, 2018 Seven Redsky XX, 2017 Trek Boon 7, 2014 Trek 520
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 693 Post(s)
Liked 903 Times
in
486 Posts
Maybe we should encourage our state legislatures to enact a standard practice that can be incorporated into drivers license training. Then we can have it spread via public service announcements and then drivers will know what our intentions are when the pass us at a safe distance while we all share the road.
Likes For Ghazmh:
#67
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,274
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 150 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6147 Post(s)
Liked 4,092 Times
in
2,325 Posts
Pointing right to turn right on a bicycle is dumb AF, however.
Frankly, I find using the left hand signal to be entirely wrong for the way we ride bicycles and how we make right turns. It throws your body out of line with the corner and doesn’t allow you to properly control the bike in the corner. I’ve been using the right hand signal for more than 30 years and have never had a motorist that was confused about my intentions.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Last edited by cyccommute; 08-02-21 at 10:52 AM.
#68
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,094 Times
in
5,053 Posts
“May” is neither must nor an obviation of the fact that all motor vehicles have only one shared set of hand signals. That bicycles *may* use a different hand signal for right turns in some states does not mean doing so is better, but it does make bicycles the exception. If you think unique signaling is more clear on the road, go ahead and be that guy. I still think it’s smarter to use and reinforce uniform practice which all vehicle operators should have been trained on,
For all practical purposes, bicyclists are unique because they're the only ones still using hand signals at all.
Vehicle operators ARE being trained to recognize the right hand signal from bicyclists. "Should have been" is a silly statement.
Gotta tell you, in 50+ years of riding a bicycle, I could probably count on one finger the number of times I've seen anyone use the left-arm right turn signal on a bicycle. It's counter-intuitive and awkward. I see people throw their right arm signals from time to time.
I honestly don't remember seeing a motorcycle driver throwing any kind of hand signal since the 1980s, and I've never seen a car driver use hand signals ever.
So, are you deliberately doing a Grampa Simpson imitation?
Likes For livedarklions:
#69
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,505
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 353 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20791 Post(s)
Liked 9,436 Times
in
4,663 Posts
Lots of cyclists where I live and ride, yet I still see it so infrequently that I have to pause and interpret for half a second when I do see it - just what you want out of effective communication at speed.
#70
Thread Killer
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,373
Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3078 Post(s)
Liked 1,631 Times
in
1,005 Posts
Some people live in smaller worlds than others, but we all have the capacity to think bigger and better.
#71
Habitual User
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Altadena, CA
Posts: 7,792
Bikes: 2023 Niner RLT 9 RDO, 2018 Trek Procaliber 9.9 RSL, 2018 Storck Fascenario.3 Platinum, 2003 Time VX Special Pro, 2001 Colnago VIP, 1999 Trek 9900 singlespeed, 1977 Nishiki ONP
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4831 Post(s)
Liked 7,824 Times
in
3,706 Posts
“May” is neither must nor an obviation of the fact that all motor vehicles have only one shared set of hand signals. That bicycles *may* use a different hand signal for right turns in some states does not mean doing so is better, but it does make bicycles the exception. If you think unique signaling is more clear on the road, go ahead and be that guy. I still think it’s smarter to use and reinforce uniform practice which all vehicle operators should have been trained on,
__________________
"Swedish fish. They're protein shaped." - livedarklions
"Swedish fish. They're protein shaped." - livedarklions
Likes For Eric F:
#72
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 17,656
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10244 Post(s)
Liked 11,596 Times
in
5,943 Posts
“May” is neither must nor an obviation of the fact that all motor vehicles have only one shared set of hand signals. That bicycles *may* use a different hand signal for right turns in some states does not mean doing so is better, but it does make bicycles the exception. If you think unique signaling is more clear on the road, go ahead and be that guy. I still think it’s smarter to use and reinforce uniform practice which all vehicle operators should have been trained on,
Funny thing is, this whole thread started because the OP had NEVER SEEN ANYONE SIGNAL THAT WAY, and had no clue what it meant, which kind of undermines the whole universality argument right out of the box.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
Likes For genejockey:
#73
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,274
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 150 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6147 Post(s)
Liked 4,092 Times
in
2,325 Posts
Says the man living on Asteroid 325. Now I have to go get my irony meter fixed.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Likes For cyccommute:
Likes For urbanknight:
#75
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 17,656
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10244 Post(s)
Liked 11,596 Times
in
5,943 Posts
BTW, one of the times I use the 'right arm pointing' to signal a right turn is when I have to cross a freeway off-ramp, when traffic coming off is crawling. Pretty sure that the drivers I'm signaling that I want to pass in front of them wouldn't have a clue what I wanted if I raised my left arm.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
Likes For genejockey: