RobiEli

​​​​​​​Excellent! I'll go through them and see what's available, thank you.

veganbikes

Actually good wheels can provide a better ride. You have little experience which isn't a bad thing it is just the facts of the case. I don't mean it as an attack but two sets of low end wheels does not an expert make.

Get a decent bike with decent wheels, don't waste your time and money on cheap stuff from China of unknown quantity and quality. Custom bikes do cost some money but when done by professionals who know what they are doing, they can be excellent bike that will last a long time and have good support behind them. However in the meantime get yourself a decent bike and it doesn't have to be custom, yes custom is awesome but custom is expensive and unless you have really odd body proportions a off the shelf bike or at least frame can do you just fine. If you really want that custom bike like we have been saying, save up your money. Trust me it will be worth it in the end. If you need help with a build sheet let me know. I have a lot of them I have made for bikes I actually have built and own and many that I wish to build at some point (some full custom and very expensive that I am going to have to save up for)

RobiEli

I was never claiming to be an expert, otherwise I would have never started this post lol. I do feel I know enough though, from my personal experience, that it's not necessary to buy a super expensive wheelset....not for my needs anyway. As far as being cheap from China, I can only base my decision on feedback from people that have bought there. I've seen more on Walty frames than Toirays but both companies seem to have a lot of experience and good reputation. I tend to agree with some of the comments above and don't see a reason why these Chinese quality frames should be any less than US made. Anway, I'm not willing to spend $3000+ on a custom frame even if I saved up the money for it. Also my wife would never allow it so that's not an option .

veganbikes

Did not say anything about a super expensive wheel set. There are levels of quality.

If you are not willing to spend money on a custom frame, then clearly a custom frame is not for you at all. There is plenty of reasons why a unknown quantity is lesser than a known quantity. Moots, Firefly, Lynskey, Lightspeed, Merlin, Bingham Built, Ren/TiCycles, Independent Fabrications...are all known quantities who make high quality stuff, yes they cost money but they are custom frames built by experts in their field, the equipment, knowledge, skills...are what you are paying for and what you are getting. Some random company in China will make a frame to the lowest bidder they do it all the time but that is not a mark of quality or knowing what you are doing. Slapping a frame together isn't hard so long as the welds hold enough to put it into a box and send it via China Post. Geometry and all that stuff don't matter and you aren't paying for it you are buying whatever cheap ti tubing they can scrounge up and someone to weld it. A 94 Geo Metro and 94 Acura NSX are both cars but one is a lot more desirable and higher in quality (and it ain't the Geo Metro). T.G.I Fridays and The French Laundry are both restaurants but one has had 3 Michelin stars for years and the other is well T.G.I Fridays.

Like I said you seem to be best served with something off the shelf. Custom is not your thing clearly. Those who are looking at custom are saying "I am willing to spend money" those who are saying "cheap" are looking for something from closer to the bargain bin or at least something from pre-made to manufacturers spec. Not necessarily a bad thing, shoot my New Albion Privateer frame is fantastic and was not expensive at around $380 could be a great bones to start with. It is decent quality steel, not super light weight but a great ride and easy to do just about anything with. Budget but one I would recommend highly. Merry Sales Co. has been around a long long time and I know should I ever have any problems with my bike I can get support from them (granted I doubt it, it is steel and so far has taken a lot of abuse with no problems). There are times you can find the starving artists who can build up a cheaper frame out of UBI or some frame building school and they might be OK (everyone starts somewhere) but I would wait a bit till they grow and practice their craft.

Moots has been doing it since '81. Merlin started in '86 and spawned Indy Fab (and some of those folks worked before at Fat City Cycles in the 70s and early 80s), Seven Cycles and possibly also Firefly (amongst possibly others). Wheras Tiorays is on Alibaba and eBay and has little known history and poor spelling, They started in 2019 on eBay and 2020 on Alibaba and his 40 thieves and possibly in 2017 for their business license (according to what they gave to Alibaba). I cannot even find a proper website for them or contact info. Not someone I want to deal with.

RobiEli

You are entitled to your opinion and I appreciate your feedback but I disagree with "Custom is not your thing". I'm a graphic artist by profession so the aesthetics of the bike is a big part of it for me.
Tiorays has been extremely responsive so far with my emails and I'm sure their spelling in Chinese is excellent .

rosefarts

OP had already made up his mind about this bike. The opinions of others mean nothing to him.

Maelochs

When I decided on Workswell, I did all the stuff people here do ... checked out he company's history, talked to a lot of customers, found out whatever I could, analyzed their website .... if I had looked into Tioray I would have gone elsewhere ...

However .... Someone had to buy the first round of Workswell frames. Someone had to take a shot in the dark ... and a lot of people have bought crap knock-offs which were complete frauds, and some got lucky.

masi61

I have seen some deals pop up on alloy Mavic Tubeless UST centerlock disc wheels at good prices. I found this set listed: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mavic-Cosmi....m46890.l49292

Yes they are used but they have low miles and the seller sounds like he is having a hard time getting them to hold air. Someone good with setting up road tubeless could likely get these sorted easily to maintain pressures.

Last month there was a set of Mavic Kysrium UST road disc (alloy rim version) wheels new old stock that were selling for $475 with free shipping that seemed like a really good quality road disc wheelset for the price. Mavic wheels might be discontinued now since the company underwent some type of receivership (bankruptcy reorganization) earlier in 2020. Some bike shops randomly will offer up new old stock Mavic disc wheelsets at good prices if you keep looking. I know on these forums there are usually a few folks who report how terrible the Mavic freehub bodies are but I am not aware of any widespread problems on the 11 speed Shimano freehub.

Drew Eckhardt 

Buy a set of your favorite commodity rims - quality Kinlin rims with machined sidewalls are available for not much over $30 each. Lace them to cheap hubs - when you don't buy Shimano or Campagnolo you're unlikely to get forged bodies with coined spoke holes regardless of how much you spend. Cartridge bearing quality may vary, although they're wear items you'll be replacing sooner or later. Use appropriate length double butted DT spokes which will be free from factory defects.

Combine them following the instructions in Jobst Brandt's _The Bicycle Wheel_.

They won't go out of true unless you bend a rim on an obstacle.

Replace rims and bearings as they wear out. Don't worry about the spokes which will still be fine after 300,000 miles.

veganbikes

It is an odd thing to disagree on when you were clear about it but yeah custom costs actual money. You have stated you didn't want to spend money. Aesthetics are a big part of cycling that is why I would want to go for a bike made by someone who knows what they are doing make it look good. Well have fun anyway hopefully they can find someone who can weld titanium properly or at least close enough so you don't get hurt.

Atlas Shrugged

I am always surprised by the attempt to romanticize the supposed art of frame building. As far as metalworking skills required it's really not that complex and tooling needs are minimal. Tig Welder, Mitering Machine (can be a milling machine or good quality drill press) cutting tools, some jigs and a few other odds and ends, tubing and fittings are easily sourced. Anyone who has worked with metal for a while can pick it up in a few days. Frame geometries are easily found and painting can be done at home with adequate results or outsourced if desired. All that needs to be done is welding some tubes together accurately and neatly not a huge ask. Sure, getting one of the last Tom Kellog frames would be a status symbol and beautiful addition to life's bucket list of achievements however implying there is some magical ride and tangible benefit to the bike is BS. Yes I have built my own frames in the past and still, have one of them, however, haven't ridden it for years.

mstateglfr 

In the prior post, you ramble on about how the OP needs to buy a boutique US made titanium frame that will cost thousands, but then you mention you bought an Asian made entry tube steel frame(the Privateer with Infinity, I think?) instead of a boutique US made steel bike.
I get it- you mention Soma as being reputable in case something happens(even though there is a strong history of Soma sucking with cliams/issues) and so that is the justification to separate your example and the OP's frame.
Its mostly a distinction without a difference.

Cool rant though.

veganbikes

My first post I mentioned Ora in Taiwan, not a boutique builder at all but they do quality work and are known for that. I did mention some builders in the U.S. in one of my more recent posts yes but also mentioned another bike I have that would suit a lot better for someone on a budget. I have yet had issues with Soma or New Albion and have worked with Merry Sales for years without issue. However yes they could have had issues I am not aware of. I didn't say one has to buy a boutique frame but one should not buy the bottom of the barrel titanium frame from some rando on eBay/Alibaba.

It was cool you sort of half read what I wrote and complied an incomplete summary that kind of missed the point.



Atlas Shrugged In terms of Titanium yes anyone can put a TIG welder to it but to have it last the area and tubing has to be clean and you want to back purge with argon gas while you weld. Also to build a bike you have to have some precision just slapping something together won't last. Tom Kellogg is more than just a name (and part of a good balanced breakfast) he is a designer and someone who understood geometry and design of a frame. Putting tubes together is just part of the equation. It is doesn't have to be romanticized but honesty should play a part. If it isn't properly straightened and checked you can have problems and people do. If the welds aren't done right, they can fail. Look at, for instance, when Clark Kent outsourced frames, they had a lot of issues their original stuff made in house was good but they want elsewhere and had issues. I get it everyone can do anything, good inspiring stuff but to say it is just that easy is not entirely truthful to the craft.

mstateglfr 

I read everything you posted and I was referring to your extended rant in post 29 where you list a bunch of boutique US builders that are both extremely nice and extremely expensive, then ramble on about TGIFridays. Not everyone can afford a trip to Napa just to do Laundry, so they stick to their Whirlpools and Maytags closer to home.
You are making massive assumptions in this thread based on biases and pushing that off as fact and reality. The company the OP is going with seems to have plenty of satisfied customers, based on quick internet searching and you know essentially nothing about the company, yet you confidently declare its a bad idea to buy from the company and instead should spend 4-5x more with domestic boutique brands. I mean, sure thatd be great if it were always possible, but it simply isnt. And so there are levels within various product offerings to account for not everyone being able to afford the best.

rosefarts

Vegan...

You seem like a mostly ok guy. I'd be happy to have a steak with you, or cheese and wine, or maybe just some gelato.

But if I didn't know better, I might mistake some of your posts here for being racist.

Yesterday I asked about a weird eBay cassette. You focussed on the Chinese aspect of the thing, not lack of quality. Even though nearly every cassette on earth is made there, for every major brand.

Now today it's the same argument but about a bike frame. Stop blaming China, again, nearly every frame in the world is made there. Some of the absolute best and some is shady crap.

Blame materials, blame the skill of the builder, blame the sheer distance giving them near immunity from warranty/legal probs, but blaming the country? Be better.

Atlas Shrugged

You have been reading too many cycling magazines and other industry propaganda. Any experience welder can weld Titanium tubes together accurately and reliably. Obviously it needs to be done right and that’s understood. Even yourself who I assume is not a welder is aware that the tubes need to be purged with inert gasses during the welding process. This is not some secret process like Stradivarius used in the production of Violins.

The fact that some framebuilder decided to outsource to a lowest bid contractor and did poor quality control prior to distribution is not connected to this discussion. Companies like State and Salsa pump out thousands of welded frames a year without a issue, much less catastrophic failure and mayhem on the streets

The magic of geometry and design is more ethereal fluff. Bicycle geometry has barely changed over the past 40 years and is easily determined based on your preference and again there is not much to it, a few angles and some tube lengths is all we are taking about. Grab a 1970’s Masi Gran Criterium and current Kellog frame where is the great advancement and innovation.

There is more skill and innovation necessary for Carbon frames, tooling required is specialized and expensive, layup skills are less common, materials more challenging to source and actual carbon layup design requires much more experience.

RobiEli

Never really thought about it much but so true, my Trek is made in China and quite clearly states so lol. Also I have a Specialized MTB which I believe is made in Taiwan.

Maelochs

A lot of "Made in Taiwan" bikes are made in factories in communist China owned by Taiwan businesses.

IOn any case .... welding, machining, cooking CF .... it works the same everywhere on the earth. The issues people usually cite when deiscussing Chinese products are poor quality control, and the plethora of good-looking, low-quality knock-offs sold just to make quick sales.

In China the routine is, graduate and get a job with either a big firm---in which case you steal all their designs and methods and open a competing business in your garage or a small factory----or you get a job with someone who ripped of all the intellectual property of some big firm and started a small factory.

Some of them go on to be long-lived, respected firms--DengFu, Flyxii, Workswell ----while some churn out cheap crap, sell a bunch, and fold. Some of the people hired by the small firm steal all the intellectual property and open their own small businesses, and hire new grads ... and in six months the grads and the business owners fold and all start new businesses. It's a great way to build up cash because you don't need to worry about returns or customer service---you won't be there in six months, before any lawsuits could be filed----and you don't have to spend a lot on QC since all you want are sales. Your reputation means nothing because you already know you won't be around when the products fail. Take the money and run.

The Alibaba listing might be from a company which does excellent work---people who are on their fifth-generation business, and who have really learned how to make a quality whatever, and are planning to spend some real resources and build a name .... like the aforementioned, established firms. Equally, it might be a business opened by the engineer who didn't get kept when the previous firm shut down, who decided to start his run with a bunch of cheap, low-quality, low-value products.

Maybe the guy who si welding your Ti frame has been doing it for 16 years, or even six years---but is really good, really careful and his boss has built a workshop with all the right equipment. Maybe he is the guys who cleaned that guys work station and watched him weld a few frames.

Roll the dice.

(Spoken as a man with a couple "China-Bomb" bikes which are rolling strong after thousands of miles.)

Aladin

Good post.. underlines EXACTLY the game buying individually from over the pond.

Found Tiorays frame .. more pics than on *bay... I would never buy via Ali. I'd like to get the 'Tiorays' story... company info. I look at the range of products.. I see the name as a marketing concern for small shops in that region of China known for Ti. (?).

Going to send inquiry to management... see if I can get a detailed reply per company details. I'm inclined to try one of their Ti forks.

RobiEli

So I finally received my TI frame and fork and put it together. I ended up ordering from Tiorays (they recently changed their name to Tiris) on Aliexpress. Initially I ordered from them on ebay but they said if I order from Aliexpress instead then the shipping would be free. At any rate, I'm super happy with my purchase. This is the review I left on Aliexpress.

"Very high quality product made with extreme care and precision by a trustworthy, hard working company. The quality of the welds and my custom graphics I sent them are the same quality as any other high-end TI manufacturer I've seen and at 1/3 of the cost. Customer service is the best, very helpful and patient in answering all of my questions and displayed true concern for my satisfaction, everything from the proper bike fit, tire clearance, appropriate wheelset, fitting a headset, thru-axles sizing, graphics and even helping me out with complications that arose during customs clearance. The package was packed very well. I would definitely buy from them again in the future for future builds and if you are in the market for a high quality titanium bike don't hesitate to contact them. In short, I'm very happy with my purchase and highly recommend them."

The entire process was not exactly quick. From the time I ordered until now building up the frame, it took me 6 months . It took some time to learn a lot of new concepts, time to confirm all of my measurements and make sure the frame fit me properly, time for creating the graphics, one month for them to build the frame and place my graphics, one month break because of the Chinese festival (don't order if the timeframe is around February), 5 weeks the frame was stuck in customs :/ (long story). My initial plan was to transfer all of my road bike components to this gravel frame but that didn't work out so I ended up buying all new parts. The rest of the time was ordering a groupset, wheelset and everything else and waiting for it all to arrive. Thank you, by the way, for the suggestions in this post on wheelsets. I bought a tubeless ready fulcrum set from Merlin Cycles and very happy with them. I put it together entirely by myself (first time) and brought it to my LBS (highly recommended) for final tuning and correcting any mistakes I made (there were a lot lol).

RobiEli

Here are just a few of the images they sent from China to confirm before shipping out.

RobiEli

It was extremely well packaged. This is what I had to peel off after removing from the box.

RobiEli

I ordered just about everything from Aliexpress except the wheelset. A number of things have to be replaced already like the bottle cages and brake calipers, absolute garbage quality. The idea was to buy cheap components and upgrade in the near future whatever I wasn't happy with. Here's some shots of what I have so far.







There's a lot to say but for now, I absolutely love this bike! It's a blast to ride. Pure fun. Don't know how else to say it.

79pmooney

Maelochs, there's a way to get Chinese ti frames both of quality and support. Some of the better US ti frame builders have "stock" frames built in China to their design. Frames get sent to their shops, then inspected, sold and supported as if they built them. TiCycles does this with their Hyak frames. I am sure there are others.

Those aren't bargain frames. Considerably cheaper than any with the TiCycle logo on it however.

Atlas Shrugged

Pretty quiet out there from the Apostles of Titanium Craftsmen. The tales of highly skilled artisans working in dusty workshops countless hours with this mythical material creating magical machines is debunked. Great looking well made bike delivered as promised and custom for your requirements at a reasonable price. Good for you ignoring the usual crowd of Titanium worshippers here on BF espousing the expected, Seven, Lynskey, Merlin, Ti Fab and other mass welders of bikes.