TMonk

Cross post here from the TT positions Facebook group... Sorry for some of the redundant info, you guys know me better and don't need as much background:

OK guys, let me have it...

Background: Cat 2 (SCNCA) road rider, invited by other elite team members to race (and win) TTT events, district champs, local series etc. I've never done any real optimization and want to start improving my ITT

Physical: 5'9", 65 kg, FTP hovers around 300w + or - depending on fitness level. Pursuiter profile, good at over/under efforts. Can probably pull out a good 20k, 40k (ITT) would be a real challenge.

Bike: Felt DA2 with etap 1x11s, bayonet stem slammed down with modular (Alibaba) bars and Aerocoach 15 degree adapter. Bars can go down another 1/2" if needed, and can go up quite a bit. Cheap old Zipp disc filed/modded for 11s and Hed Jet 60 front.

Helmet: Sworks or Giro Selector. I hate the Giro and have trouble keeping even the shorter tail on the Sworks down towards my back. I move my head around a lot so maybe a smaller helmet would be better.

Position: My heel/toe is flat at the bottom so I think the saddle height is correct. In the side photos, my foot as at the top of the stroke so you can visualize hip angle.

TIA!

Hermes

Well, there is a lot to like in the photo. Personally, I could not see very far ahead with the head position unless you have X-ray vision through your forehead. In all the TT courses, I have raced on forward visibility is a must. Pursuit at the track during a race with referees watching the track is different to an extent. I think you need a different helmet and the ability to lower your neck while rotating your head up. Frontal area remains unchanged but forward visibility increases. Not so easy to do.

The jersey / skin suit, assuming that is your race set up, has to be a lot tighter. I see too many wrinkles. It takes me a couple of minutes to put mine on with talcum on my arms and shoulder and upper back. I have to be very careful not to rip the seams.

But hey, you look amazing, you have a great position, you have state / records results, FTP w/kg to die for, you ride with Thurlow and Horner on Zwift. Who am I to even comment.

burnthesheep

You'd have to test the even lower stack. It's one of those things "lower is faster till it's not". As in you wind up gaining 1w but lose 10w on power production from the hip angle.

Looks good to me. If it were me and you hate that helmet I'd try a Poc Cerebel. It's a bob tail that's roundish, easy to find, tests pretty well on most folks.

My hangup with that Facebook group is that I've been finding some advice I got earlier starting out TT was good for starting out. And that group is good for that. I used Slowtwitch to get help. The tweaks that started to get me somewhere were using Golden Cheetah and virtual aero.

How narrow are your pads? I think you're just a small dude given where your arms align with the rest of you from that view.

As I got faster from the 23-25mph area to 26.5 to 28.5mph range the suit choice changed and I feel I got some there. I haven't tested that with the Notio yet, but my Aerocoach/Nopinz suit just always seems to freaking fly when I use it.

TMonk

Your comments hold a lot of clout Hermes! Depth of experience.

This is not the race suit, I have a NoPinz that I use, which could also be smaller, but is an improvement from this one. Maybe I'll post photos with that later.

For now I just want position and biomechanics advice. I'm happy to hear you don't think that I'm so far off the mark. RE: visibility, I put my eyesight right over my hands and try to look past my brow. This involves moving my head up every so often to see more than a few meters ahead, like Pogacar, minus the experience and world tour legs.

I agree the helmet could use improvement. The head is such a big deal... Not sure how to lower my head and look further up without practice and some neck PT exercises... Which I can do. LMK if there are any more pro tips.

TMonk

burnthesheep the pads are about 11 cm center to center. Is that reasonable? They are already in one of two pre-set positions, the narrower one. Thanks for advice RE: the POC. I think an ex teammate has one of those I can likely borrow and test.

Lastly, and this may be a bit of a rhetorical question, but how do you test power output in different positions? Is it like a HR/power decoupling thing, where if I lowered my position, I might see less power at the same HR? The thought of doing regular max efforts in TT position to determine this doesn't sound very fun. Or is it just by feel? Like if I can feel similarly at a hardish effort lower, and it tests better, it works???

burnthesheep

Once I think I have "something" new, if it really moves the pad width or stack or reach a good bit......like in a picture it looks really different, I'll monitor my sweetspot workouts in Trainingpeaks looking at the heart rate drift figure. I know day to day, training, blah blah blah..things change...but just to make sure that I didn't suddenly do something silly where I'm losing a lot of power and it would stick out like a sore thumb in a long steady sweetspot effort. Just making sure something really ugly doesn't pop up showing I lost power output.

The pad width is probably fine there, it's just you're so skinny you don't have body poking out the sides past your arms in the front view. I'm 71kg and with pretty narrow pads I can see "body" to the outside of my arms. So, you're probably good.

Once my "super extensions" come in the mail, I'll go fit test some more ideas. I'm "fixed" on my 10cm "rule" and 15deg pad angle stuff due to using fixed shims/tilts. Rule in quotes as I'm too slow to need that stuff for USAC in the US, I ain't going to win nationals ever. The super extensions can adjust the angle anything you want zero to 25 degrees. I have this "theory" that what's good for one person isn't necessarily good for another. So, I basically want to do test laps with like 5deg, 7.5deg, 10deg, and so on then see the data. Kind of like tire pressure having that drastic cutoff once you hit optimal and you go "too far".

Other idea being that in high yaw days the higher hands can sometimes be slower. So wanted to check that on a really windy day on my loop also. So, then if it looks like a high yaw TT........one angle........lower yaw TT day......other angle.

You may be fast enough with that power and body size for that to be irrelevant. Since I'm a "slower than 30mph" dude, I may find gains in that angle stuff.

Hermes

There are a lot of regurgitated comments such as hip angle and power output. Hip angle is set initially in the studio based upon flexibility tests. ERO set my hip angle at the same position as most Euro pros. Making sustained power at an optimized aero position, IMO, is about time in the saddle and strength and adaptation. My wife who has a national 20k TT record and 3 world track records makes the same power in her ERO position as she does climbing on her road bike. She rides her TT bike a lot.

Head and neck position is influenced by the width of the pads. In general, the closer one puts their elbows together and rounds the shoulders, the more difficult it becomes to keep the head down and still have forward visibility. I attended a aero pursuit seminar at VSC where we worked on head position and many times the pads had to be widened to get the head down.

This is very individual. We were in Aguascalientes in August when Lambrey set the sub 4 minute pursuit record. My wife set but yet another WR. Lambrey’s morphology is perfect for the pursuit position. He is a genetic freak and just hits every metric perfectly.

I have long arms and legs and wide shoulders. Great for tennis not so much for pursuit.

Back to hip angle…I tested various hip angles and found that I had about a cm of not much change in CdA around the ideal set point. So I set my bars at the higher set point. Even if I go up a 1/2 cm, there is not much change in CdA and I can see much better and I can relax my neck more.

My point to all this is there are a lot of variables to optimize and some, like hip angle that get a lot of discussion, in practice, are not that big a deal. The more relaxed I am, the more power I can make. If I carry any tension, my power suffers. YMMV.

burnthesheep

The geometry of reach can affect where the head goes also. If you don't run much reach, the geometry of your arms raises your torso. And in consequence raises your head since it's connected to your neck which connects to your torso. More reach means that angle cuts that torso height. So, not only pad width. But he's right, too narrow and the head tends to pop up.

Just that lots of folks run lots of stack then worry about not being able to get the head down where if they lowered the stack some they don't need to stick their neck down like an ostrich.

I think with enough reach and the days of shorter cranks the hip angle thing isn't as big a deal.

wktmeow

Have you tried the Giro Aerohead?

I also like holding my hands overlapping, not sure how real of a difference it makes

burnthesheep

It's small enough I couldn't sniff it out with the Notio with out/back laps. I'd probably have to do a lot of circular laps while enabling "velodrome mode". In that lap setup I can sniff out smaller stuff. But it was under the .003 kind of threshold of difference. I did laps out/back with club hands, cocked wrist normal, and stacked hands. I think it may depend on how much angle you can manage with the 10cm/15deg rule stuff.

I have a topic going over on Slowtwitch listing all vendors of "super extensions" setups. One seller makes an overlap hand grip setup. It looks weird, but is kind of meant for that. The grip is like 75deg to the horizontal versus how it normally sticks vertical.

I'll probably buy an Aerohead to test now that I have the Notio. If it beats the beloved Tempor, so be it. But my Tempor stomped the Cerebel in a "hold still time trial pace" scenario. Whereas I wouldn't ever use one for something like an Ironman where I'm getting up to eat or reach for a bottle on the roadside table or a bottle in the BTS cages.

It annoys me the whole USAC thing of "no euro safety standard helmets unless it is also a UCI event". So what is it, does the safety sticker being US or Euro matter.....or doesn't it. As I'd love to try our a Met Drone but that's not on the "list" per se.

My Revolver trispoke replica is in transit. I found some Corsa Speed 23's in tubeless to try out also. I'll aero test all the tires I have with tubes then pick winner then setup tubeless.

wktmeow

Signed up for a 20k TT on Jan 9, in the Merckx category since I don't have a TT bike anymore. My fitness is pretty low at the moment, but it'll be fun to see what I can do anyway. Would love to get under 30 minutes.

My setup will be a 2020 Venge with 40cm bars, skinsuit (basic Eliel thing, nothing fancy), Evade 2.0 helmet, and maybe some Velotoze if they're allowed. Aiming to go mostly in IAB or on the hoods as sphinx-like as possible. I'll probably be looking for something like 250w, maybe 260w optimistically if this Festive 500 week gives me a little bump. Wonder if that will be enough to go 24-25 mph

TMonk

Hopefully you should get there if it's not a cold and windy day!

FWIW, I usually get a 10 minute lap out of closer to 300w... which is 1/3 of the race. Sometimes faster, sometimes not. But that's in regular training garb, no SS or fast wheels etc. If it's a "fast" day, I think you could get there on 250-260 with all those speedy bits.

For the record, wktmeow and I are similar in size (height/weight).

burnthesheep

Topic update: bought and installed the Carbon WaspsI took my time to get it how I wanted. I made myself some width narrowing plates as you can see to get it “just so”, for now. Otherwise install went fine. I made those also so if I want to test out stack height, I no longer need to disassemble the angle bracket to add stack spacers given that internal custom shaped nut. Just add spacers, insert new length bolt, retighten my locknut. I have it that low now just to see how low I could get it without a bridge. I will likely put in the few mm higher to get the bridge back on there.

I had never run the di2 cable inside the clicker body mount bolt before, so that was a touch difficult to learn. But common for most all of this style of bar for you to fish the cable through. I just took my time and had some more coffee.

I did have to sand down the barrel nuts (how the tilt block tightens and goes together) a hair as the machined brackets arrived stuck together due to those being a hair wide. I had to get a punch and got them apart fine. Then a light sand on the barrel nut and I could adjust just fine.
No complaints at all.

carbonwasp8 by sflemon, on Flickr

carbonwasp6 by sflemon, on Flickr

carbonwasp5 by sflemon, on Flickr

carbonwasp4 by sflemon, on Flickr

carbonwasp3 by sflemon, on Flickr

TMonk

damn those look fancy. enjoy!!!

Enthalpic

Not sure that position would be legal for UCI, but it looks fast. "Praying mantis" is forbidden

Hermes

The top of the end of the aerobar is allowed to be 10 cm above the “main bar”. The position is standard for a lot of pro / record attempt setups and is UCI legal but may not be faster for individual racers. YMMV.

burnthesheep

No uci, and no usac records. Just fun.

You get 10cm and 15deg. If I had to, I have pad wedges to get the rests to 15 and the rests can move forward to reduce to 10cm without losing angle.

Lastly, I aint trimming the hand grips till damn sure I have the fit down and will keep the bars. Thats worth a lot of vert.

That is if uci even mattered to me.

If curious go look at someone like Ganna, the distance pads to end is shorter so you keep 10cm with more angle. Geometry.

Also, I was trying the limits out. Aero wise I am not convinced max angle works for all. Maybe a lot less some folks, more others. Notio will tell me so.

burnthesheep

I like the bars enough, time to trim. But, measuring made me hate the two button shifters. Ordered the 1 buttons and cables tonight. Will install and turn on synchro shift.

TMonk

burnthesheep, when you rode the Felt DA series bike, did you know the spacing in the rear dropout? I'm considering a new disc wheel, but I'm worried about the narrow spacing in the rear. I borrowed a friend's HED disc with 25 mm extenral, and the carbon fairing *almost* rubbed the chainstays when it was pushed far forward in the dropout, so I pulled it back a bit. I'm considering a Zipp Super 9, but I'm not sure if the outer width is any more or less than the HED, I think it kinda depends on where you look online.

burnthesheep

When I ran that frameset, in training I was running the Flo 90 in the rear with 25mm tires on them. It cleared. The front older aero Tririg brake cleared easy on the Flo 60 front with 25mm tire. The rear brake I opened up as the cable routing made that brake a hair mushy.

My race setup I ran the 9+ on the front from HED that I still own. Rear I ran the older 11 speed HED disc in the C2 23mm width. That cleared easy.

But, for that specific 2008 model year Felt DA frame........the 25mm brake track cleared fine. It was a great setup, just when the seat-tube crack formed and the seat clamp turned to trash disentigrating.....it was time to move on.

What year DA is it? I would hope the newer ones are even more generous in the rear spacing.

Here's a photo of the old Flo 90 I had on the back:




This was the race wheel setup:

TMonk

nice. I think it's a 2012 or 2013 DA2. I'm fairly certain the super 9 should clear, just a bit nervous about it.

did you ever take a minimum chainstay width measurement? I wonder if that sort of info is available online...

burnthesheep

Frameset is in the shed still. I can go put a mm rule on it in a bit when I take the tools back. I lost a mm or so when I repaired the driveside chainstay when I obtained that frameset for free back in the day.

burnthesheep

Update, #3 Carbon Wasps.......now trimmed the tips for 1-button use. Much more ergo. I put some $8 finger holds on it I found on Amazon. I don't feel I need them. I'll ride that way a bit and see how I get on. They are zip tied on.


Fit photo is just to give an idea of what they look like with a person and the ends trimmed. I've some Notio work to do with the fit, so ignore it. I put the stack as low as possible with my new hardware and the pad spacing narrow as I can. Just to see the limits of the fit coords. I have a mountain of spacers to go up. Also, that's within the UCI box, excepting not putting pad shims in. I wanted to see what I could get away with inside that box also.

Sorry for small photos, they are from video as it takes me longer to get situated than a camera's delay timer.

Trimmed:


With rider:

ntnyln

As a total glutton for punishment, last summer I decided to build a new TT superbike up during the great COVID supply chain fiasco. I ordered my race wheels this weekend because of the long lead times I saw and I began thinking about everything else. As it stands:
Frame - ordered June 30, no where in sight
Gruppo - Ordered 12 spd Di2 August 30, no where in sight
Fancy Aerobars - have in hands
Race chain - have in hands
Spare chains/cassette - expected 3/26
Race wheels - ordered this weekend, expected 13-14 weeks
Power meter/cranks - was hoping for another Quarq so I didn't order any with gruppo and SRAM seems more interested in cycling computers than a 12 spd Shimano Quarq

The bookies have the odds of me racing this bike this season (was hoping for Nat's in Aug) at about 1000-1 right now.

TMonk

^
good luck haha. I pulled the plug on a used Zipp Super 9 11s clincher this morning... can't wait to get that thing. I have been riding a really old (REAAAALLY old) Zipp 950 that we filed down to fit an 11s casstee. Super thin external width, pancake flat disc, tubular, and the bears are crappy so I have to adjust them constantly so they don't tighten/seize when tightening the wheel in the dropout... will be happy to see that thing go. But hey, the price was right.

I sort of see the super 9 as an "end game" wheel. And by "end game", I mean as long as I still riding 11s, which is hopefully as long as possible given I have a TT bike, two road bikes and a MTB all on 11.