tomato coupe

... and you need a machine to install or remove the tire from the wheel.

mstateglfr 

A key difference between those and bike tires is how/who can install them. One is relatively simple and can be done in a minute in a garage with either fingers or maybe a tire lever. The others are not nearly as simple and are not designed to be mounted/removed in a minute's time by the user with their hands.
As a result, tolerances and design are totally different.

WhyFi

Tubeless tires are a pain in the ass to get on and off - they're not ready for primetime!

5 years of development later -

You don't even need to struggle to put on the tires, let alone use a machine - that can't be safe!

prj71

You are like a cat. 9 lives.

prj71

All of my cars and trucks the past 20 years have had aluminum rims.

prj71

I AM a machine!!!

Bottom line is that hookless rims are not as scary as Psimet2001 makes them out to be.

GhostRider62

I like carbon and magnesium

Which as about as much to do with the topic as your post(s)

GhostRider62

Have you done any testing? If so, how reduced are the safety margins over hooked rims? I suppose only time and tort claims will tell. I have a set of Flo carbon tubeless wheels with over 50k flawless miles on them. Here is what they say (don't tell Hambini on me). You can find Josh Poertner's take online too.


https://blog.flocycling.com/carbon-w...hookless-rims/

prj71

7 bikes in the garage...All with hookless rims. Not one blowoff in thousands of miles. Is that a test??

GhostRider62

No.

Go back and read what others wrote.

prj71

In any case, I'm not worried about it. It's not a big deal.

WhyFi

Sweet cherry-pickin'!

If you read the blog post, their primary objection isn't that it's not safe, it's that the selection of safe tires is limited, and excludes their then-favorite GP5k -

This is not a news flash.

Other interesting tidbits -

So, they think that the biggest advantage that hookless have is their better (straighter/more aero) tire/rim engagement - not shocking given Flo's emphasis on aerodynamics - and they're waiting on more compatible tires to hit the market, which is basically every new, high-end tire being released (including the new GP5kS TR, a tire positioned above their then-favorite tire).

Given that, do you really think it's going to be long before they release a hookless offering? I don't.

Litespud

Don't know about ATV and MC tires, but car tires run at ~30 psi and they're way more rigid than a bike tire - I can't imagine any circumstance where an inflated, or even an overinflated car tire would "burp" or spontaneously come off the rim. Getting a car tire off the rime takes way more grunt than removing a bike tire - the fact that they're both "hookless" is about the only similarity they share.

GhostRider62

I have no idea.

Josh Poertner blew off a tire at 80 psi. I had one blow off well under the rated pressure. You can disbelieve both of us.

Talk about cherry picking on your part, Flo's above conclusion is unambiguous.

If you are happy running 50-65 psi on the road, you are probably safe with hookless but there is less safety margin for blowoffs the higher you go towards pressure spec limit of 72.5 psi.

As far as I know, ENVE is the only rim maker testing tires for blowoff. i am sure they did that just for fun. I see no reason to be industry's guinea pig or rolling the dice with tolerance stackups between rim and tire mfgs. My tubeless wheels have hooks and will have them into the foreseeable future.

prj71

Why 50 - 65 psi? I'm running 80 psi on my hookless road bike wheels.

WhyFi

You had a ETRTO TSS rated tire blow off? Which?

Yeah, it is unambiguous - if you're fine with the tire selection and pressure limits, go for it.

At 175lbs, I usually run my tires a little under 60psi. I can get quite a bit fatter before I need to worry about 72.5.

That's not much, with regards to the TSS state of affairs, is it?

If you want to run hooks for the foreseeable future, that's fine, but I'm not interested in you talking down to me about my choices and my experiences with hookless until you've got some of your own. Ta ta.

Sy Reene

Even with the new ETRTO/TSS 'standards' there are still some headscratcher oddities -- seeming to point to the tire makers still trying to figure out what works or not. For example, why is Pirelli's 26mm Zero Race tire not hookless compatible? Meanwhile Conti figured out how to at least claim their GP5kTR 25mm is good to go hookless.

WhyFi

It's not terribly head-scratching for someone that has an ounce of practical experience or at least a legitimate personal interest.

Psimet2001 

Incorrect. It is widely known that between the manufacturers there is little agreement on the specifics with the ETRTO standards. It has to do with the tolerance and tolerance stacking and who is responsible. The rim guys point at tthe tire guys and the tire guys point at the rim guys. The reality is the standard isn't currently enough to ensure compatibility which is why each rim company is posting what specific tires they have directly tested and what specific pressure they will sign off on for those tires.

i know no one cares or writes me off but I am also a wheel company. The tech isn't good enough yet for sure. Also - there is still not any solid benefit for the riders. These are all tiny marginal gains. I am still sitting here asking, "why". I mean if you sat here and told me "riders will effectively be able to run setups allowing them a 10w gain at 20+mph I would still question that as being a real benefit but it would at least make a solid case for the change. No one is claiming that publicly at least. So... Yeah it's coming. It will improve, but what's the actual point for the rider. Seriously.

Psimet2001 

https://twitter.com/CaleyFretz/statu...pQ4N2TdReOWG2A

GhostRider62

Your first post in this thread called nimrods and profanities to those with different experience than yours. So, if anyone talked you down, you deserved it. Your crashing and dying posts were not useful.

I would most happy not to engage in any discussion with you, so, fine.

I had a blow off. I read industry experts cautions, not just one or two.

tomato coupe

Seems like a good time to cite another podcast: Nerd Alert (Mar 22, 2022):

https://cyclingtips.com/2022/03/nerd...ure-not-alone/

About 9:35 into the podcast, from Josh Poertner:

About 31:45 in, from James Huang:

force10

Thanks.

It would be kind of funny except that it is the end consumer being left to figure all this out in many cases.

WhyFi

And that's why it's not terribly head-scratching. 25/26mm is borderline both in terms of pressures necessary and in terms of compatibility with some of the wider rims. Conti is saying, "sure, but keep it within xyz," while Pirelli is being more cautious and just saying, "no, let's just not." As an end user, I don't really care and I don't really think that too many people, that have already bought in to tubeless and hookless, are going to be too terribly interested in anything smaller than 28mm, anyway. *shrug*

What *couldn't* that be said about, when it comes to the pointy end of the enthusiast (or even pro) market? Everything is marginal and everything seems to get curmudgeon undies in a bunch. Fully internal cabling? One piece cockpits? Non-standard seat posts? Another cog on the cassette? Everything just needs to go back to bike tech from [insert the year of said cyclist's formative period].

I understand that you're not in an easy position because your livelihood is intertwined in this and you need to deal with the dumbassery of customers. Others, though? They've already gotten off the carousel, but they're standing around, shaking their fist because it won't stop spinning. Why do these guys start and/or actively seek out threads about new stuff, just so they can kvetch? Indifference, I can understand. Investing time and energy in to something that you actively dislike and don't really understand? Yeah, that I don't get.

tomato coupe

The present hookless / tubeless situation has problems that exist independently of any customer dumbassery. The dumbassery just makes the situation worse.