bertinjim 

The guy who designed most of the Carlton, Carlton/Raleigh and SBDU TI-Raleigh bikes was Gerald O'Donavan who really knew what he was doing. When Raleigh bought Carlton as a boutique builder for street credit with the British club lads the company was building about 2,500 semi-custom and production bikes a year. Under pressure from corporate Raleigh at the height of the bike boom I believe it was about 2,500 bikes a month. Which brings us to those early and later 70s Carlton/Raleighs.............

Kilroy1988 

In response to the above, and @noglider Indeed, what Jim just mentioned seems to be the crux of the issue! I have a 1970 Super Course that was originally sold at Hans Ohrt's shop in Beverly Hills, which had been one of Carlton's exclusive American dealers for at least twenty years by that time (I had a 1950 Carlton Continental that was also sold there) which is just beautiful to behold. The lugs are all very carefully filed, the paint work is still beautiful and the pin striping was spot on. Considering the boom was really just taking off by 1970, I imagine most of the bikes - even with these 531 straight gauge frames - were rather thoughtfully finished at least up to that point in time. I have owned three or four other Raleigh Carlton frames from the early to mid-'70s with less accurate workmanship, including a '72 Professional.

I know you commented on it last year after I posted about it, Noglider, but here's a reminder!

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...er-course.html

Cheers!

-Gregory

Real1shepherd

Raleigh totally knew what they were doing. Their SBDU racing custom bikes won the world in their day. Racers coveted them then and collectors covet them now.

The trick always was for Raleigh to downscale from there, but give the illusion that their lesser bikes were fast and responsive. They knew just how to work the frame and angle the forks to give the rider that 'feel' on the lesser bikes. And the machinery/people they had to make production bikes were amazing.

A lot of the real bike racers when they weren't racing were tooling around with friends and family on Competition GS' and the occasional SC. Your bang for the buck with a International, CGS or SC was guaranteed. And riders LOVED to customize their Raleigh's back in the day.

There's an old B&W film from that late 50's of a father & son going to the Raleigh factory to get the the boy his first bike. Dated and pedantic, but the machines they were using to bend tubing and how they assembled the bikes is just amazing....and that was just in the 50's.


Kevin

bark_eater 

Can any one suggest a 700c "Rough Stuff" tire for a 1973 SC with fenders? I was thinking more of a knobby cyclocross tread, but not something that will collect to much mud, if such a tire exists?

chainwhip

Others may have more specific Raleigh/fender suggestions, but give Kenda Kwik Trax a look .The tread pattern sounds like what you're after.

bark_eater 

I was concidering the Panaracer Comet, but it looks like they are a large 38mm and might not clear the chain stays.

Slightspeed

A lot of us SC riders like the Pasela Panaracers. I've done lots of gravel miles on my Paselas on my '73 SC including Eroica. I have 700c 28s on mine. Depending on your fenders you may be able to go larger, depending on chainstay clearances.

noglider 

I like the Pasela, too. The Kenda Small Block 8 might be nice, but I don't like knobs on my tires.

Kilroy1988 

On my 1970 (photo somewhere above) I'm rolling on Kenda's 27x1 3/8" tires and the rear is pretty close to as wide as they'll go between the chain stays. Roughly 35mm. There's just enough clearance for comfort, and fenders wouldn't really fly (I tried). The ride quality is very smooth even on some rougher country roads in these parts.

-Gregory

no67el

+1 for the Paselas---- they feel great on my SC MKII, cushy and pretty nimble on what was already a cushy bike:

bark_eater 

Where did you run out of clearance with fenders?

Kilroy1988 

Either right between the chain stays or else between the brake bridge and tire, I don't recall for sure. I have shorty fenders on it now but they're tucked way up and have a bit of wiggle room, but with a full fender to get the arc right it has to be one way or no way, and that might have been where I had my issue. Tire rub was definitely apparent and that's why I removed the full-fenders with these tires.

-Gregory

Steven_04

Picked this one up figured if i could probably grab a cool vintage ride cheaper then it would be to rent a bike for the weekend when went to mackinac island with the family, worked our pretty good. It rode great and way classier then all the rentals up there.

Piff 

Update on my ever-evolving-hopefully-one-day-finished Super Course:

Finally came to a conclusion on parts. Plus, with my tax return on the way I did not feel quite as guilty deciding to get some new parts rather than cobbling/scrounging so much from a parts bin. It's still a horrifying Franken-Course, but at least it'll be comfortable!

Handlebars: Nitto b135 45cm
Stem: Terry riser (dunno model, hasn't arrived from ebay yet)
Brake Levers: Tektro 340
Brakes: Schwinn Approved Centerpull 610/750 (my favorite components on this Raleigh )
Saddle: Brooks Professional
Seat Post: Kalloy, silver
Hubs: Shimano 6400 (8spd hyperglide, from craigslist, so someone must've modded it?)
Rims: Matrix Aurora
Tires: Forte 700x35
Cassette: Shimano 8spd 13-26 (13-14-15-17-19-21-23-26)
Cranks: Sakae SX (49,42,32)
FD: Shimano, couldn't find a model number
RD: Tiagra 9speed long cage
Pedals: Not even worth mentioning...

Pictures:
Some notes:

I haven't ridden it yet (stem and handlebars still on the way), but I think 8 speed will be very nice to have. So far my roadie is 6speed, my utility 80s mountain bike is 7speed, and now I've gone to 8speed with this Raleigh. However, 8speed messed up my plans. Originally, a NOS Suntour VG-T RD was going to be used on this bike. Unfortunately, once installed it was not able to shift onto the largest cog...it was almost there, but not quite. I think if you lucked out and found a Super Course that has forged dropouts that includes the derailleur hanger it would reach the last cog. The replaceable hanger moves the rear derailleur outboard by a few millimeters, just far enough to be a problem. So I swapped it out for the 9speed Tiagra RD which, to be completely honest, shifts far better than the VG-T. Though, there is something to be said about the VG-T's overall quality and robustness, and Suntour's quick cage design...good lord why is that not yet standard on rear derailleurs.

The front derailleur is a double (I think? It's pretty thin) but performs well as a triple; each front cog can reach 6 of the rear gears without having to trim. It'll be easy to just hangout in the 42t front cog and run up and down the middle 6 gears which is nice for me, living in San Diego.

Overall, I'm very glad to finally be done with fiddling around with this Raleigh and simply ride.

casanewt

I know it's not an English one, but here is the 1983 Super Course I picked up last week. It is the Japanese made 555SL frame. Rides fantastically on the big 27x1-1/4 tires and the Suntour ARX friction shifting is spot on.

Real1shepherd

I don't have either one of my Raleigh's finished yet, but on the Schwinn Le Tour, I have a black wall tire that has worn like iron...no knobs though. It even spent some time on my trainer shedding shavings and it's still going strong. Called 'Ironskin' or something like that.

If you're interested, I'll go look.

Kevin

bark_eater 

Thanks for the offer. Im definitely looking for knobbies. If I get slicks they'll probably be Panaracer Pasela's or slick Gravel Kings.

There are a bunch of different anecdotal reports of 700cx38mm tires fitting under fenders on the early 70's Super Courses, and a number of no-go reports.

I found a couple good deals on 35mm full cyclocross tread Gravel Kings, but should probably wait till the wheels are built and the fenders on before committing.

jackbombay

Absolutely no way you will fit 38c tires in the back of a super course from the early 70's, I have 2 1972 SCs in my garage right now, a 35 will fit, but with only 1 to 2 mm of chain stay clearance, so its not really an option.

bark_eater 

27'' or 700c?

noglider 

I have 37s on my 1971, but that's because I'm now using 700c wheels. Remember, the dimensions on the frames vary a lot, because it seems they didn't measure precisely from one frame to another.

jackbombay

700

huh, I wonder if they used different lugs/chain stays in 71 compared to 72?

noglider 

It seems like they hand cut tubes with a hand saw by eye. I'm only guessing.

bark_eater 

I'm pretty sure I have a 1973. I'm measuring about 40 mm of chain stay clearance for 27" wheels. I might gain another mm or 2 with 700c wheels. 35mm actual tires seems reasonable. besides chain stay clearance, a couple of bikes I have are realy tight fit to the fenders. They look nice but make me nervous how they pick stuff up from the road, so a reasonable bit of air space between tire and fender is in order.

jackbombay

If the heat tube lug has holes in it where the top tube connects it s a73, if the head tube lugs are ornate but don't have a hole it is 72.

Piff 

For another tire clearance anecdote, mine is a 73(?) Carlton MK.II. It's chainstays aren't crimped, and has been spread to 130mm. The tires are 700x35mm, and based on how it looks I wouldn't recommend going up to 38mm if you want to fit fenders.

I also agree that there's just barely enough room for fenders around the chainstays area with 35mm.
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