Leebo

The idea of bikepacking is camping, not staying in hotels. Re up supplies as needed. Tent, stove, fuel, sleep set up, 2 on bike sets of clothes, one off bike, a dry layer and a warm layer. Depends on trip of course. Not that hard. Ride, rest, repeat. I try to get as much dirt under my tires as possible. New England has many options. Most of my rides involve pavement, dirt roads, singletrack and bike paths.

Happy Feet

Ditto.

Two pairs merino wool socks, padded riding shorts, jerseys or shirts. Rotate as necessary. I have found a sham wow shammy works very well as a camp towel. Light, soaks up moisture and dries quickly.
A difference in behaviors between tours and bikepacking might also be that tours often consist of looking around civilization (being a foot tourist) while bikepacking (as portrayed in social media) tends to focus on riding away from civilization. Hence, less need for redundant fresh clothes or excess hygiene.



Brian25 ...
Upstream you mentioned fashioning your own front rack. Have you looked at the Trek 1120 and the system they developed? https://www.trekbikes.com/ca/en_CA/b.../1120/p/22005/

djb

Brian, you said that you've done bike tours before, you must have some photos of your bike on those trips? Did you use the same bike and panniers?

Show us a photo so we can see what you've used before.

nun

Yes bikepacking emphasizes getting off road which is why panniers are frowned upon, but the approach to packing and carrying gear can easily be applied to a more conventional touring ride. I like to tour to see some countryside and visit interesting places; I stumbled on the Museum or Precision in Windsor VT on my summer tour which was great. Even though I emphasize traveling on roads if I follow the Google Maps routes I will eventually be directed into some gravel, particularly in Northern and Western New England which is why I want to get a bike with more than 25mm tire clearance.

Rob_E

So you're still equating bikepacking and credit card touring, which still leaves me thinking we have completely different ideas about what bikepacking actually is. To me, the defining aspect of "credit card touring" is that you sleep with a roof over your head every night and buy your food as you need it, meaning you basically need to carry spare clothes and toiletries. On the other hand, I associate bike packing with trips that are primarily camping trips, and preferably removed from anywhere that you're likely to find a hotel, restaurant, or maybe even a road. So I remain confused as to why you think these are overlapping categories. While I consider both to be subsets of "bike touring," I think of them as being almost mutually exclusive. Not saying that you absolutely couldn't plan a "bikepacking credit card tour," but I would think that was the rare exception, not the rule.

And there's still no "why" to all of this. I agree with your conclusion that for you it's "wiser to stay with more realistic traditional touring gear." If you have a set-up that works, why mess with it? Not sure what you were looking to gain when, (1) you seem very certain that the gear you currently have cannot be pared down, and (2) you don't seem to be tackling the kind of terrain that makes a bikepacking set-up more desireble. But to suggest that bikepacking is not a real option just because no one has shown you how to do it with your preferred gear is kind of silly. Yes, a bikepacking set-up is compromised in terms of capacity, but it's also true that plenty of people who tour with less than a fully-loaded traditional set-up. You have a preferred gear list that you seem pretty set on leaving as is. That's fine, but then you want someone to demonstrate how to put your gear into a bikepacking set up, when, in reality, most people doing a bike packing set-up would make different gear choices. Doesn't mean their choices aren't viable, and it doesn't mean that they spend their nights naked by the fire waiting for their one outfit to dry. But it does mean that they probably made some gear choices designed around their set-up.

Touring-wise, I probably never had more capacity than when I had 4, large panniers on two racks.


if you include the stuff on top of the rack, it's probably about 80 liters of capacity. Looking at it now, it's looks like a comparatively clean set-up when compared to my most over-loaded bike-packing set up.

To me, the bikepacking set-up seems way more cluttered, but it has closer to 50 liters of capacity. I'm still over-packing by a lot, but it's around 60% of my highest-capacity set-up.

But I've gone on successful trips with less capacity than that, and many people travel with far less capacity and don't feel that they are roughing it. My trips often involve days spent in camp, and I will end up packing items to make those stays comfortable that I would not take on trip that was primarily biking. I could eliminate a lot gear and still be pretty comfortable on a longer trip. But I still wouldn't try to go with a bikepacking set-up without a compelling reason. I just find that having a rear rack at least makes packing easier, and makes the load easier to distribute. I also think there are a lot of things I could eliminate from my gear before I got down to your scenario of traveling with only one set of clothing. I'm not going to dismiss folks who do that. Ultralight travel has some serious advantages, and just because taking it to that extreme isn't for me, it doesn't mean it's not a valid strategy for someone. I will say that even at my lowest capacity touring load, there's still a lot of gear that I could shed before I was needing to lose all but one change of clothing.

So I over-pack a lot, and I can still fit all that junk into a bike packing set up, still camp every night, and still have multiple changes of dry clothes. And it still doesn't mean you should be trying it. But it not being the best option for you does not mean it's never a viable option for a self-supported bike tour.

nun

I agree about the cluttered nature of some bikepacking rigs; they often have 4 or 5 different bags on the bike. I chose a simple rackless 2 bag set up with 30L capacity to make my more conventional touring easier. It allows me to pack my saddlebag and bike into a soft sided case or bike box that goes on regular airplane, train and bus baggage and I have my handlebar bag as a carry on. In hotels and motels I can easily carry my bike up stairs because the total weight is 38lbs. I have camping equipment that is enough to keep me comfortable in Spring Summer and Autumn. Also I'm old and fat so I don't want to drag lots of weight (on top of my own) up hills and so from a purely riding point of view I enjoy having a total gear load that is less than 20lbs, now to drop 20 lbs from myself.

cyccommute 

You don't have to be convinced about bikepacking. If your current set up works for you, use it. I wouldn't use bikepacking gear for a road tour because it's just not that convenient, just as I wouldn't use a road bike for a rugged off-road tour. If I'm doing a rugged backroads or trail tour, I use the bikepacking because it works better there. I've done off-road tours on mountain bikes with panniers and with trailers. Neither work nearly as well touring with bikepacking bags.

For me, I don't do the washing of bicycle clothes in a sink. I usually carry 3 sets of bike clothes and the ones I'm wearing. I use washers and dryers when I need to wash and dry clothes. I may do that in a hotel on the occasions that I stay in them or in a campground if the campground has the facilities or I may even stop at a Laundromat. I will have some access to a washing machine at some point within 3 to 4 days.

On off-road tours, I usually limit my tours to 3 to 4 days. Off-road bets me up more than on-road. 25 miles of off-road (or off-pavement) riding is harder than 25 miles of road riding.

I've never done changed clothes after rain. Never even thought about it. I've never even thought about drying clothes over a fire. I don't build fires while on tour to begin with. And I wouldn't use the fire to dry anything. Like you say, the risk is too great.

That said, "lycra" doesn't have that low a melting temperature. The nylon and lycra have melting points around 250°C (that's 480°F for the metrically challenged). That's pretty high.

You carry the patch kit for inflatable pads but you take care to avoid puncturing them. I've been used inflatable pads for decades. First Therm-a-Rest and then Big Agnes. I've never punctured one even with hundreds of uses. I keep my tent clean and use a footprint under the tent. I've never even punctured the bottom of any tent. The pads are tough and will last a long time.

On a bike without racks, the pad goes on the handlebar bag. My Big Agnes pads fold up to the size of a 1L Nalgene bottle and got in the bag with my sleeping bag. If I used a Therm-a-Rest, it would be strapped in with the tent and sleeping bag. I've seen people with folding pads that are strapped in to the same place. It can be done and can be done easily.

I think it has been amply demonstrated that bikepacking can be done for certain situations. I certainly wouldn't do it for a multi-week tour on pavement but for certain types of adventures, it's superior to panniers. I have more off-road adventures planned for here in Colorado (as well as other places) and I may even try a multi-week one as some point in the future. I'll use bikepacking bags for those because while the bags have their warts, they are smaller warts than other methods.

cyccommute 

Damn, you need to cut down on the stuff you carry, son! I'm not known for traveling as light as some but...damn!

I also think you are underestimating your volume. My set up in post 12 with the seat bag like yours (16L), a smaller frame bag (4l), handlebar pack (3L), two Salsa Anything bags (5L each), micro panniers (5L each) and a gas tank (1L) and Camelbak HAWG (17L) adds up to about 70 L without my sleeping bag. Adding the 20L sleeping bag in (the tent is 4 L but I'm leaving that out), I've got 90 L capacity. You've got a whole lot more hanging on the bike than I do.

My road bike set up (post 40) had about the 90L capacity without the sleeping bag and 110L with it, since I tour with the Camelbak there as well.

nun

I think volume is probably a better way to think about touring loads than weight, although they are obviously related. The OP's issue is really how to fit all their stuff into what they see as the limited volume available in bikepacking bags. You can go mad an have seat bags, frame bags, handlebar rolls, top tube bags, bags on the forks and a back pack and if you are doing that then you might as well be using panniers as you obviously aren't looking to minimize volume of gear. My set up consists of a 23L saddlebag and a 7L front bag, making 30L in total (I also have 2x1L water bottles that I can supplement with drinks bought from stores and carried in my front bag and jersey back pockets). I don't need to strap anything to the outside of the bags. I can expand that capacity in emergencies with the extendable flap on my saddlebag and a small 2oz nylon back pack that I carry. When I credit card tour I use a similar set up but just replace the 23L Carradice Camper saddleabag with a 9L Carradice Barley saddlebag.. Once the tent, sleeping pad, sleeping bag and cooking equipment are eliminated there's mostly just clothes left and 9L is more than enough for those.

Rob_E

Well, I didn't count my cooler, nor did I include my folded up duffel bag. I figure the cooler is pretty non-standard touring gear, and the only purpose of the duffel was to hold my gear together so I could check it into baggage at the end of the ride. Not really what a distance touring person needs to haul with them usually. Beyond that I went with the published capacities of the bags.
15 l -- Revelate Saltyroll
14 l -- Revelate Terrapin
8 l -- Surly frame bag
10 l -- Fork bags at 5 l each
--------------------------
That's 47. You throw in the yellow bag on the back, my poncho underneath, and my water bottle, and I think there might be a small handlebar bag under there somewhere, you'll likely exceed 50 liters, but not by a lot. It is possible I'm still underestimating, but I really don't think I'm approaching your numbers. Yes, mine is a big, ol' mess of gear, but you've got a seat bag and panniers and your handlebars look pretty well loaded, plus gear on your back. I don't find it hard to believe you've got more capacity than me.
But either way, the point remains: You can carry plenty if you need to. bikepacking set-ups can still get you into the woods and comfortable if they have to. But if you don't have to use a bikepacking set-up, I still prefer a rack and panniers.

Brian25

CLARIFICATION: Everyone has a different idea about what bike packing is. After a better introduction, I will dive into the Bike packing definition is or at least my version of it.
First the intro: me lifelong light (used to be 130 lbs) short cyclist (only 5'-6") from nor' California. I raced all three years as a junior on the road and on the velodrome. Ended up racing as a cat 2 (not a pro or national team member but the next step down-- A"2" )
By the mid 80's I sort of blew up at bike racing. On my first tour, I hitch-hiked to San Diego and rode back on an old 1969 Cinelli with 700 x 28 tires, a rear rack, two panniers and tent bag and tent on top. In '86, I added low rider front racks, bags and I toured from SFO to Atlanta. (4200 miles in 42 days) Average speed overall was 17 mph. In 1990 I moved to San Diego and by 1992 opened my first bicycle store, and owned and operated (did all of the mechanicing for 12 years. When I found time, I did a few tours, and some tandem touring down the California cost.
Fast forward: This year, I flew to Cabo San Lucas and rode back to Arizona. Then I drove to Colorado and did a three-week road tour. My average speed in Baja and Colorado was about 11 mph. While touring in Colorado, I kept thinking, "there must be some way to go faster/ make this easier. Maybe a bike packing set up would help--- geez, I am so slow anymore, I used to average 17 mph."

Back to the (my ) bike packing definition: A touring bicycle (not defined by handlebar type or wheel/ tire size) designed to carry touring gear (notice: I am not mentioning camping gear or not in this definition) much like a traditonal touring bike with rack(s) panniers, but with (frame) bags attached directly to the bicycle frame tubes and a seat mounted bag. Some set ups attach gear to the handlebar and forks. Advantages include: A) Better clearance in the event of stream crossing reducing the necessity to carry the heavy bike over stream crossings. Improved side clearance for navigating thru crowded/ narrow single track trails. Improved leg clearance on the pushing side of the bike while hefting the bike up trails too steep to ride. B) Because of the jarring associated with riding off road, a bike with traditional racks and panniers has a much higher chance of breaking the little 5x.8 mm bolts (the same size as waterbottle cages bolts) -- this will be disabling. A bike outfitted with frame bags has no mounting bolts, and is better suited for rough terrain (no bolts to break). C) Lighter weight: The bags tend to tip the scales a little less than a set of pannier and the necessary racks to mount them on. I have likely left out something here but not a bad start.
I think that nun stated that he thought that what I am trying to do on this forum: I.E. try to get the guys on this forums to help me figure out how to get my gear selection to fit on my bike is basically stupid, and you know what... He gets bonus points for being 1,000% right. Sorry, maybe I am just a big baby. I have not furnished pictures if the bike to help with the task at hand, so I thing that it's a bit crazy/ unrealistic for me to expect from all of you.
About my comments about credit card/ bike packing. some of you said bike backing is not credit card touring, i.e. staying in hotels. I just wanted to mention the Lael Wilcox video that was recently posted on bike forums. I noticed that she has 100% no camping gear, and is doing the GMDR. So unless she sleeps on the ground...I think it's credit carding/ hotels / warmshowers/ roadside angels. But on the other hand I have been looking at a crazy guy on a bike journal: NIKTIA a world tour, by jacob ashton, and he is doing long sustained touring with a bike pack set up and rarely credit cards / hotels it. If coarse it helps that he looks like he is six foot, six. and riding a 58 cm frame. (has a gigantic frame bag). my problem, and I know that none of you have seen this (sadly). on my bike the frame bag could only be 7x 20". My handlebars tend to be about 8- 10" above the front tire. If you look at wilcox's (small) bike, her bike is maxed out on space, I do not see how she could add a tent and bag, I have the same problem...small bike. I have listened to/ taken to heart, in particular...Stuart Black's comments about small bikes for bike packing, also about how the rear bag is likely to drag on the rear tire....thank you, Stuart. The point I am trying to make: as Stuart seemed to point out that it is more difficult to put all the necessary bike packing gear (for full loaded touring) on a small frame. thanks to all of you.

nun

It's possible to do long credit card or camping tours with either a conventional touring set up using panniers of various numbers and sizes or with a bikepacking set up. If you have a small bike then clearance can be an issue and you might have to look at some racks to keep the bags off the tires. There are plenty of online resources to help you. You might go over to Emma Pooley's instagram site and see her setup. With your current gear it might not be possible to fit within the volume restrictions of an elegant bikepacking set up, so you will need to be flexible with your gear and probably use saddlebag, bar bag and frame bag and maybe mount water on your forks, but why not just go with 2x small lightweight rear panniers and a handlebar bag.

I camp with a pack volume of 30L and credit card with a volume of 14L, but both use a rackless setup with just saddlebag and handlebar bag. Tire clearance isn't an issue for me as I ride a 56cm frame. Many things are possible with careful gear choices. The way to see if you can tour in a particular way is to try it. Get your gear together and see if you can make it fit in your desired bags. This might take a bit of imagination, but there's no way you will really figure things out from a forum, you just need to try a few of the ideas you've been given.

cyccommute 

Just gotta say that your fork bags are way bigger than 5L. The Salsa Anything bags I carry are 5" x 14" and are about 5L each. Your fork bags look like they are about the size of my sleeping bag stuff sack which is 20 L. And you have two of them.

The estimate on my bag volume is based on the volume of each of my bags according to manufacturer specs plus the Camelbak.

And I'm not saying that I my bags add up to more volume than yours. Compare the pictures and you'll see that you are carrying a lot more than than I am...or at least have more volume.

On that I think we can agree. Given the choice, I'd do a rigid bike and panniers. But for rugged mountain bike adventures, bikepacking gear is the way to go. (I also prefer a suspended bike for off-road riding.)

djb

heck Brian, you aint a kid and you have a heck of a lot of (fast, damn fast) experience riding.

re speed, bottom line is that panniers are like sails, you know that and we all know how every small bit of aero adds up the faster we go. That 100mile per day at 27kph average is really damn fast, I think iin K's as I'm from the great white north, but sheesh, in all my years touring, Ive sort of always averaged a similar touring speed average, around 16kph or 10mph overall, and this is a pretty common average speed--a combo of bike+load weight, panniers wind resistance, not burning ourselves out so we can go day after day--and I'm fine with that average speed.
In other words, thats what I expect or bet on for a daily average, and dont fret about wanting to be faster.

If you still really want to go faster, then absolutely bikepacking bags are going to be a help because they will force you to take less crap, ie less weight, and the shape placement of the bags will really help with less air resistance once you are in that 25kph range.

re the really hardcore types like that accomplished lady rider, she sleeps on the ground, no tent, but lets face it, she and others like her are pretty damn hardcore, fricken tough individuals.

I guess if you are really concerned with the speed thing, then you're going to have to look into spending the bucks on lightweight stuff. Nun for example uses one of those Tarptents, ridiculously light tents, so stuff like that will help, as will sleeping bags that stuff super small yet still are good for the temps you expect the lowest theyll be.
So yup, you can reduce your volume, and live with less clothing options etc, in the end like Nun says, only you can try out diff options and see where your priorities are and decide what budget you can drop on X, Y and Zed.

pretty neat riding and store ownership history. Nice to see that you are returning to biking, clearly its a fun time to try out stuff because tents etc have gotten lighter, as the bikes etc.

Rob_E

Thanks for the clarification. We definitely have some differences of opinion on what would fall into the standard definition of bike packing.

One of the appealing parts of bike packing, in my mind, is that you don't need a touring bike. You don't need a bike designed for carrying gear, but you obviously want one sturdy enough to do so. Mountain bikes are popular for this purpose because bikepacking is often done in rougher terrain, where a mountain bike is made to be ridden. So the idea that bike packing would likely involve a touring bike seems wrong to me. Not that it couldn't be done that way, but part of the appeal is being able to easily go off road, some of the qualities that make a good touring bike are the opposite of the qualities that make a good off road bike, so I wouldn't start with the assumption that a "bike packing bike" is going to be or even likely to be a touring bike.

I'm not sure your stream example is a major factor, but maybe I'm wrong. If I have to ford a stream, I don't want my bottom bracket to go under water. I feel like most of my pannier set-ups put the bags higher than the bottom bracket, so I'm no more or less worried about water crossings on either set-up. A bigger issue for both water crossings and single track is that a bottom bracket that sits higher is often desirable for off-road riding, which is one of the reasons you might not choose a touring-specific bike for bike-packing.

Lael Wilcox is an endurance racer. Perhaps the confusion comes because the Great Divide Mountain Bike Route is not only a popular bike touring route, but also the route used for a couple of races. One the one hand, someone racing the Tour Divide might be considering to be "touring" or "bike packing," but they are not doing what 99% of the people on this forum are talking about. They are trying to cover a maximum amount of distance in a minimum of time, so the lightest gear and the shortest, easiest stops. I wouldn't base any touring definitions on what racers are doing as their goals are often very different. And I suppose racing the Tour Divide might meet a strict definition of "credit card touring," I don't think your average touring cyclist, bikepacking or otherwise, would consider "credit card touring" and "racing in the Tour Divide" to be very similar activities.

I think if you seek out more bike-packing journals and bike packing websites and bike packing discussions, you will find that camping is the far more common method of getting your rest in. If you're basing your entire view of the sport on two people, one of whom is a racer, your view will be a little skewed.

There are ways to keep your bag off the rear tire, but there will be an issue if there is simply not enough clearance. Some bag manufacturers will specify how much room they think you need, and that might give you an idea. But, again, there really doesn't seem to be a huge advantage in my mind unless you have a compelling need. Riding a touring bike with all the necessary attachment points on rail trails doesn't seem like a situation that doesn't merit a bike packing set up. You could lose a little weight by ditching the racks, and if it's that important to you to pick up the pace, then maybe it's worthwhile, but if dropping weight is that important, then it might also work to take a closer look at your gear. Small frame does mean small frame bag, but that really doesn't tell you or anyone if a bike packing set up is feasible for you. It starts with the volume of gear you travel with and ends with the volume you can fit on your bike. The frame bag, on my set-up, is one of the smaller capacity areas at about 8 liters. I've taken plenty of trips where I didn't even bother with the frame bag because I didn't need that extra space, but then I almost always have rear rack. How much space do you need and how much capacity can your bike accommodate? Those are the questions that need answering.

mev

Here is the gear list:
https://bikepacking.com/plan/lael-wi...ide-gear-list/

I think the reason you don't see much more than a bivy, is the fastest of these racers are averaging almost 200 miles per day on rough terrain. For the ~16 nights she was on the road, I might expect a night or two in hotels. I would also expect some nights riding through the night and also some nights bundled with clothes in the bivy besides the road. Enough hours to recharge and then back mountain biking another 200+ mile stretch...

Edit: 2745 miles in 17 days 1 hour.

djb

re rear wheel clearance, there are those Arkel waterproof seatbags that have a metal frame support thing to keep them off rear wheels, might be an option for a small frame.

nun

Adventure racers will usually have a bivy of some sort, but I don't like them because of condensation and they are obviously small and uncomfortable. The HotSac in the used by Wilcox would not be my choice for a long tour, I'll go with my 1.5lb Montbell Down Hugger and a single walled Contrail tent that weights 1.5lbs that has enough room to sit up in. The sleeping bag and tent fly both compress down small and I replaced the stock tent poles with custom ones that split into sections short enough to fit inside my saddlebag. You don't have to use the extreme gear choices of adventure racers as you can fit comfortable camping equipment into small volumes.

silvanpyang

Sounds like you've got it figured out, but if there is a water source to fill up the shower from, perhaps you could just take a bath?

Brian25

I could see how you could reach that conclusion, but it's a little more complicated. An example:

In To Santos I found a water spicket in front of someones house. I filled my pocket shower there, but honestly it was not the sort of place in the middle of town where I felt comfortable bearing it all. I do not know if Mexico has laws against public nudity. I ended up taking it to a somewhat secluded lot with a high fence, hung it up and used it.
I have a super light back pack that I use to take the water sack to less visible locations. another challenge is that I may find the water but may have to cruize around to find the comination of a tree high enough and not so publicly visible.

Brian25

I think that you have too much time on your hands and now are starting to use your interpretation to twist what I am saying so you can remedy all your free time with creating drama on this post. When I wrote "a touring bike" well you are touring on it so hence its a touring bike--- right. I did not say dedicated touring bike, so stop the high drama. also I refuse to waist any more time going over your trivial nitpicking.

Happy Feet

I think there is a lot of not knowing what bike packing is by people who don't bike pack yet are trying to define what bike packing is is going on here.

...and Lael Wilcox CC touring - what a chuckle.

Why don't you stop dreaming up your own definitions and just go spend some time reading at bikepacking.com. Believe it or not, they have it figured out and are willing to share that info with others.

Under the header: What is bikepacking? https://bikepacking.com/bikepacking-101/

nun

Yeah, when a thread starts to include personal attacks my troll radar goes off and the thread should be closed. I think this has run it's course.

staehpj1

That has some merit, but there are a few problems with that way of looking at it as well.

While weight can be pretty exact, volume can be pretty subject to interpretation. How far are the roll top seals rolled down or straps tightened? Are the bags really the rated capacity and so on? It is much easier to weigh stuff than to get out a tape measure and do calculations on oddly shaped objects. Not many people are going to do that and a lot of people who do would get it wrong anyway.

Rob_E's 47 liters of gear are a pretty good example. I'd be willing to bet that they'd pretty much fill my nominally 45 liter backpack twice over or at least nearly so unless Rob has packed pretty loosely. I think it is likely he is grossly underestimating the volume of his setup and I have no idea of the accuracy of the rated capacity of my nominally 45 liter backpack. It may well be over rated in capacity, I have no idea since I have never bothered to measure.

Then there is the fact that people will consider bags full with wildly different amounts of stuff in them. I pick gear that packed compactly, compress it well and pack it carefully. Some folks may do neither. I am sure folks consider a bag full with half as much in it as I do and some probably manage to cram in a little more.

rivers

3 x small bikes (46cm-51cm) loaded for what was essentially a credit card style bikepacking tour. It took some crafty packing and rigging of bags so they didn't rub on wheels. We learned a lot from this trip about what we would and wouldn't do (I for one would take my felt and not my sublime). I can't fit a frame bag and water bottles, so opted for bottles, a handlebar bag, saddlebag, and top tube bag. This was only 4 days, so we didn't much, and consolidated toiletries. We stocked up in the mornings with food, and often had some leftovers from dinner the night before. I'm currently setting up my cross/gravel bike for some more adventures this summer, which will incorporate a mix off-road and on-road (on purpose this time, we ended up on all manner of surface, including fields, gravel, and god knows what following a national cycle route). But I won't have any more space (although a bit more clearance due to geometry) on my cx/gravel bike as I'm still 5'2".

I'm currently looking at lightweight tents/sleeping mats/cooking equipment as I want to try a short tour (initially) where i'm off grid for a bit.