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building without a jig

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building without a jig

Old 01-19-23, 02:23 PM
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squirtdad
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building without a jig

What would minimal needs be to build with out a jig?
Assuming good flat surface but what else?
and assembly methods? i.e pinned lug method?

been toying with doing a build for years, happy to go slow and do hand mitering etc, but not sure i would want to go all in on a jig

crazy or ??
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Old 01-19-23, 05:17 PM
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I have never pinned. I built my tandem and a lugged frame without a fixture. I had fixturing to keep the bb shell perpendicular to the seat tube, but it's not essential. Then build the hockey stick (head tube/down tube).
I always made a full scale drawing of that joint to get that angle right. A full frame drawing would be nice, I suppose you could draw one up and have it printed. I didn't have that luxury back in the '70s. Then when you join those two assemblies, the mitered top tube serves to tell you that it's assembled properly

Tack, measure, align. I think the main thing you need is a decent straight edge that's long enough. I think at that time I had a 40" ruler I used.

Having said all that, there are some simple fixtures that will help a lot. For example, Doug Fattic's t-bar. You should also be able to get some ideas from Paul Brodie's youtube.
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Old 01-19-23, 08:14 PM
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The first 8 frames I did were based on a full scale drawing, taped to the floor. A few squares (adjustable wood worker versions are fine), bench vise and files and you're off to the races. I would tack the lug points than check alignment and complete the brazing, years later I "discovered" pinning.

One joint at a time construction using the "two halves" method (hockey stick) works fine.

Not yet mentioned are the facing and chasing tools. Do you have a relationship with a LBS or local builder you can have help out with this? Andy
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Old 01-19-23, 09:34 PM
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My first few were done without fixtures other than Paragon tube blocks and a pretty flat surface. I think tube blocks are very helpful as reference points. I think starting with a track/single speed frame made from very simple standard diameter tubing makes a lot of sense if you're going it alone.

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Old 01-20-23, 03:41 AM
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For ST to BB shell I don't use a jig. I have two short bits of angle iron welded together in a sort of W. Put that on the table, stop it sliding around with something heavy, rest the BB shell in it, and support the ST just on a welding magnet going into it. I check square and that it's centred by using the depth gauge on a vernier caliper. Tack, check again, and then completely weld that out.

Then this is how I fixture the seatstays:

https://www.bikeforums.net/22417433-post1.html

And I completely weld those before going any further, but leave the DOs tacked just in case (although I have never had to move them).

If the BB shell is square and centred and the SS are right it should all go well from there. I then use the minimalist jig described in that thread but you probably could manage without one.
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Old 01-20-23, 12:07 PM
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Of course you need something to hold the tubes to your design. You can try to avoid calling it a jig but it is going to be something physicall to do that job. And you need some method of keeping the frame aligned. A straight edge with an adjustable screw will work. If I didn't have my awesome laser cut made-in-Ukraine fixture, I think I'd use a piece of plywood or MDF board to draw my design. The piece should be big enough to draw a wheelbase line to help easily determine BB drop and the center of the front and rear wheel. This allows you to measure to the bottom of your head tube (assuming you are going to use lugs) and to know how to get the correct angle for your chain stays.

Paragon aluminum tube blocks are the easiest choice but you could make some out of wood yourself if this was an exercise in doing it as cheap as possible. I'd bore the hole between two pieces of wood and then lay one of the half pieces face up on the plywood. It could be screwed or nailed in place. You would only need three, 2 for the head tube (use a long piece of head tube that stuck way beyond the lugs in both directions). The ends of the head tube could nestle in the cradle of each half block. And one for the seat tube sticking beyond the seat lug. Of course you could do 2 or 4 more the same way for the top and down tube to insure they didn't deviate even slightly from the design. But of course the lugs hold them in place so they would not be necessary unless they help with mitering accuracy and holding to spec.

I would braze the seat tube to the BB first. Then I would spot braze the entire front triangle together on the plywood. I'd put some sheet metal underneath the places being spotted. After brazing the front triangle I would braze the dropouts to chain stays and then braze the chain stay units to the BB shell using the T tool I posted pics of in a recent subject thread. Of course everything is in place and position to braze on the seat stays last starting with joining the top first. That way using a true wheel the length of the seat stays can be altered to center the wheel (I usually just file the dropout a bit). Those would be done one at a time to correct any length problems.

This of course is just a skeleton of concepts so this post doesn't get too wordy. Doing a fork accurately would take a bit more effort to make a fixture out of wood but since it is a hobby build and you are not on the clock, it won't matter how long it takes to build a homemade fork fixture.
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Old 01-20-23, 01:44 PM
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My first frames and forks used a bench vise, a good wheel and a C clamp. The frame or fork was held in a tube block in the vise. The wheel (ft or rear) was clamped to the bench top via the C clamp. By moving the two WRT each other the axle was located and the vise and C clamp tightened to maintain this positioning. With patience and care this sort of jig worked well enough to end up with pretty straight bikes. I use to have a photo of the rear set up but can't find it now. Andy

Found it. This is from 1984. I still have most of the tools, the Kennedy box and Sears cabinet.
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Old 01-20-23, 02:46 PM
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I was gearing up to build a frame with no jig. I have a flattish plate, which is actually the hot-rolled steel base of a Park double-sided repair stand. Not aerospace-flat, but definitely bike-frame-flat. Then I started buying Brown & Sharpe V-blocks when they were cheap used on ebay, collected enough (namely eight) for two blocks per tube (front triangle only). V-blocks work as well as the aforementioned Paragon blocks for jigging, but are useful for other stuff, and they work for any tube diameters, with appropriate shims under them. But if you're buying enough Paragon blocks to hold both ends of each tube, then you don't need V-blocks. Maybe get whichever is cheaper. I settled on a particular, common model of B&S blocks so they'd be matched in height despite buying onesy-twosies from different ebayers. Chineseum might be cheaper but I try not to buy crappy tools.

I wanted to build a frame with trad tube diameters, e.g. 1" TT. So, to hold all the tubes in the same plane, I needed two tricks:
  1. A couple 1/16" thick shims to put under the V-blocks that hold the TT, to bring them to the same height as the DT & ST. I have stainless "welding coupons" that work perfectly, a bit over a dollar each in packs of 10 here. (OK those are too thick by .0025". If you care about such precision, you can sand them down that much easily enough.)
  2. a 1-1/8" tube or bar to go through the HT, with sliding 'shim' tubes that fit between the 1-1/8" bar and the 30 mm inside diameter of the HT. There's no tube made with those exact dimensions so you might need a lathe or a friend with a lathe to get those shims made. I would make them with a slight taper so they tighten on a HT that's a little bigger or smaller on ID.
With ST, DT and both ends of the HT holder all being 1-1/8", only the TT blocks need shims.

This method depends on tacking or pinning the ST to the BB shell and confirming it is square. A frame stick (flat bar with a screw pointer at one end) is all you need to confirm squareness.
A BB post can be made to hold the BB square to the plate, but it would have to be custom-made to be the exact right height to match the plane established by the height of the tubes in your blocks. And different BB shells come in different widths, which would require shimming the height of the BB post to match. Probably better to just let the BB shell height float, and confirm squareness with the frame stick, tacking and adjusting as necessary.

The hockey-stick frame assembly method is not a requirement but probably best in this scenario. That can be DT/HT, or TT/HT.

I say I "was" gearing up to do this, with filed miters, but then two things fell into my lap: a lathe, which I adapted to mitering the tubes, and a pretty decent jig, made by a local amateur/hobbyist FB. He was taking a machinist training course at community college and this was his class project, so it was made quite well and precisely, though not to my liking in some ways. So I have modified it fairly heavily. But it had "good bones".

Overhauling the lathe, getting it in the basement and set up the way I like, then all the work on the jig, has consumed a year or more of my hobby time that I could have spent building frames. That was fun for me, but you see the trade-off — I still have yet to make the first frame with this lathe and jig. If you'd rather build a frame or three than have all the "fun" of setting up a framebuilding shop, then just wade in. Make like a Nike and just do it.

Even some long-time pros built without a jig. Didn't the Taylors (Jack Taylor Cycles) just set the tubes on fire bricks with a heavy weight laid on top of them to hold them in place? I saw them doing that in the video, I think it is called "Bicycle Brothers", though I don't know if they always built that way.

I think the quality and alignment of the frame made this way can be excellent, it's just a lot slower. A jig pays for itself if you're going to be making dozens of frames. I don't know where the break-even point is, could vary by a huge amount depending on what jig you're comparing. A DIY, for example made of 80/20 extrusions, might be cheaper in materials but will consume your life for (probably) a month or more, and you definitely can build a frame faster than you can build the jig. But if you have access to a cheap but adequate jig that you can use right away, then maybe.

Oh yeah and you need a place to store the jig when not in use, which is non-trivial for most designs, they're bulky. So overall, most beginners should not consider a jig until they're really sure (1) what they like and need in a jig, and (2) whether they really like framebuilding and want to keep doing it, for long enough to justify the jig.

What I'm saying is, do as I say, not as I do.

Mark B

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Old 01-20-23, 02:57 PM
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Terrific idea for a thread; thanks, squirtdad . The responses so far have been uniformly inspiring. In the context of the mid-winter squabbling going on in lots of other current Bike Forums threads, this is an oasis.
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Old 01-21-23, 02:37 AM
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An assistant to just hold the tubes while you tack them real quick would probably work. The mitres themselves locate them quite well. Once you have some tacks on there you can check the alignment and move things around a bit before adding a few more tacks.
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Old 01-21-23, 05:51 AM
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A shot of my first frame build and some of the basic tools that I used. Building a lugged frame with the same size seat and down tube made the fixturing easier. The frame turned out great and I rode it for thousands of miles before retiring it for something newer. My attempt at a lugged fork without a fixture did not go so well. The fork looked great and the wheel was centered, but the wheel was 7mm off the centerline at the road surface. It really didn't ride that bad and I only checked it after seeing odd tire wear. I made a fixture for the second fork.


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Old 01-21-23, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Trakhak
n the context of the mid-winter squabbling going on in lots of other current Bike Forums threads, this is an oasis.
Not just BF. I think a lot of people are suffering from cabin fever. 'Tis the season I guess.

Thanks to squirtdad and all the expert responders. It gives me a bit of extra motivation to get working on frame #2.
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Old 01-22-23, 11:14 AM
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Reprising my previous post, I think most people would suffer less frustration if they have something to hold the tubes in place for tacking. I built a really nice frame using a small machine table as a base, for example. I didn't take pictures of my setup, unfortunately. I wish I hadn't managed to screw up the frame getting a stuck seatpost out.
Other ideas are kitchen counter offcuts or even some MDF. Although wood is expensive nowadays, it doesn't grow on trees, you know (h/t James Krenov)
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Old 01-22-23, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug Fattic
...you are not on the clock, it won't matter how long it takes...
What FUN!

Never built a frame and most likely will not. But this sure is a nice thread for day dreaming of the possibility's. Thanks...
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Old 01-22-23, 01:40 PM
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I am enjoying all the input......not sure what my time frame is.....may be once I retire, but as an lifelong DIY guy, this is something on my list for ages.

some things like blocks sound super simple and huge benefit....
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Old 01-22-23, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad
I am enjoying all the input......not sure what my time frame is.....may be once I retire, but as an lifelong DIY guy, this is something on my list for ages.

some things like blocks sound super simple and huge benefit....
Do you have any woodworking tools like a table saw and drill press? Those would certainly make the job easier.
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Old 01-22-23, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug Fattic
Do you have any woodworking tools like a table saw and drill press? Those would certainly make the job easier.
Old (late 50's early 60's) craftsman table saw, benchtop delta press, hand tools, routers etc,

Have done some plumbing sweat soldering, bit of brazing, but more relevant have done some jewlery making which seems closer to brazing a frame than sweat soldering copper pipe,

clearly a lot of learning, planning and practice ahead.... starting to watch for oxygen concentrators
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Old 01-22-23, 07:02 PM
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friend had this plate made to assist
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Old 01-22-23, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug Fattic
Do you have any woodworking tools like a table saw and drill press? Those would certainly make the job easier.
I just saw an oscillating drum sander table on CLthat didn't have a motor. The table - other than a large hole in the center - looks very similar to the Marchetti alignment table (which is how it caught my eye). it seems that would make pretty nice flat surface to align from.
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Old 01-23-23, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad
Old (late 50's early 60's) craftsman table saw, benchtop delta press, hand tools, routers etc,

Have done some plumbing sweat soldering, bit of brazing, but more relevant have done some jewlery making which seems closer to brazing a frame than sweat soldering copper pipe,

clearly a lot of learning, planning and practice ahead.... starting to watch for oxygen concentrators
I have an old Craftsman table saw too! I inherited from my dad. It will work great as an alignment table! Place the bottom Bracket on the SE corner and there should be enough space to align your front triangle on the top using a surface gauge. That is one of the biggest headaches to solve when DIY. Ordinarily buying Paragon aluminum tube blocks and laying the out on a full scale drawing is the way to go (if you can't afford one of my fixtures) but you will be able to make the wood blocks as substitutes yourself. In fact wood blocks are your most needed and basic tool to hold your frame tubes when filing or brazing anyway so if you don't have any now, we can explain how they can be made.

I've actually thought a lot about how to make a simplified fixture based on mine just using materials bought at a hardware store and hand tools. However Americans - unlike the British - aren't inclined my direction. The majority have become more familiar with some kind of upright version. Don't count me in as one of the promoters of that style.
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Old 01-23-23, 03:18 AM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad
Old (late 50's early 60's) craftsman table saw, ...
My current plan is to use my dad's old Craftsman table saw as my "surface plate." It will be a tight squeeze, even with the cast iron extensions, but I think I can make it work.
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