It just doesnt make any sense
11-04-21, 05:29 AM
#376
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My quibble with you is that you think the demand for the hybrids is shaping the marketing, and I think you're underestimating the extent that it's the other way around. The really low end producers seized on the "hybrid" label to the extent that the label has become synonymous with low performance bikes and the quality companies fled the label.
The concept of a flat bar road bike is and always has been sound, there are people who want to ride fast and/or far who are more comfortable with a flat bar, and I don't think that number is small. You now have the same concept being marketed as "flat bar road bikes" and, basically, as commuter bikes.
Not sure what your point was with this anyway. All I said is you really can't adequately describe the rise and fall of the demand for triples without discussing the rise and fall of the hybrid. What does that have to do with "peak performance or long distance?" News flash- the vast majority of all bicycle buyers aren't really interested in peak performance or long distance. It's a bf bias to write such people out of the conversation.
The concept of a flat bar road bike is and always has been sound, there are people who want to ride fast and/or far who are more comfortable with a flat bar, and I don't think that number is small. You now have the same concept being marketed as "flat bar road bikes" and, basically, as commuter bikes.
Not sure what your point was with this anyway. All I said is you really can't adequately describe the rise and fall of the demand for triples without discussing the rise and fall of the hybrid. What does that have to do with "peak performance or long distance?" News flash- the vast majority of all bicycle buyers aren't really interested in peak performance or long distance. It's a bf bias to write such people out of the conversation.
Old bike (stolen, sadly):
New bike (crabon; FS 2.0; and yes, 1x drivetrain [pathetic, I know, but there it is
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11-04-21, 05:32 AM
#378
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Honest questions?
1. Have you ever trained for competitive cycling races or events?
2. Have you done any research on training for cycling?
When you say "ragged", I take it that you have zero experience. Yet, others here have a lot of training experience and you challenge them. Here is my explanation.
Let's use the 1x 12 speed cassette. 10, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 21, 24, 28, 32, 38, and 44T. Shifting between the 11 to the 13 is around 18% change. In those gears and on the flats, almost all of the resistance to be overcome is the wind and the power to increase speed rises to the cubic of power. This means the effective differential between the 11 and 13 cog is much, much higher and more noticeable than a mere 18% due to aerodynamic drag. WRT to physiology, certain muscle types and training effects are more effective at certain cadences. At noodle speeds, the wind and frictional forces are about equal and for those who ride in the 10-15 mph range, you just can't understand what I am saying.
1. Have you ever trained for competitive cycling races or events?
2. Have you done any research on training for cycling?
When you say "ragged", I take it that you have zero experience. Yet, others here have a lot of training experience and you challenge them. Here is my explanation.
Let's use the 1x 12 speed cassette. 10, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 21, 24, 28, 32, 38, and 44T. Shifting between the 11 to the 13 is around 18% change. In those gears and on the flats, almost all of the resistance to be overcome is the wind and the power to increase speed rises to the cubic of power. This means the effective differential between the 11 and 13 cog is much, much higher and more noticeable than a mere 18% due to aerodynamic drag. WRT to physiology, certain muscle types and training effects are more effective at certain cadences. At noodle speeds, the wind and frictional forces are about equal and for those who ride in the 10-15 mph range, you just can't understand what I am saying.
Well, my " noodle" range is in the 20s, so I'm really annoyed with your "how dare you ask a question?" attitude.
I don't train formally. I do know what an interval is and, unlike you, WhyFi recognized that my question was not some sort of challenge, but an honest one. He also gave a far better explanation than you did.
How many "I don't get it" disclaimers do I have to put on the question for you to recognize that I was really looking for an explanation? Seriously, what's wrong with you? I wasn't even asking you, why do you find it necessary to "pull rank" like that?
11-04-21, 05:33 AM
#379
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Here is my "flat bar" bike. I do not to swap gears. 53-39 and a 25T is a bit much these days.
11-04-21, 05:37 AM
#380
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Well, my " noodle" range is in the 20s, so I'm really annoyed with your "how dare you ask a question?" attitude.
I don't train formally. I do know what an interval is and, unlike you, WhyFi recognized that my question was not some sort of challenge, but an honest one. He also gave a far better explanation than you did.
How many "I don't get it" disclaimers do I have to put on the question for you to recognize that I was really looking for an explanation? Seriously, what's wrong with you? I wasn't even asking you, why do you find it necessary to "pull rank" like that?
I don't train formally. I do know what an interval is and, unlike you, WhyFi recognized that my question was not some sort of challenge, but an honest one. He also gave a far better explanation than you did.
How many "I don't get it" disclaimers do I have to put on the question for you to recognize that I was really looking for an explanation? Seriously, what's wrong with you? I wasn't even asking you, why do you find it necessary to "pull rank" like that?
You seemed to want to know that time rather than just quibble and argue as usual. I often think, "what is wrong with you, but refrain" In any case I guess I was wrong......you do not want to learn or understand the other perpsective
11-04-21, 05:43 AM
#381
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I can relate because I ride a triple, but the middle gear is all purpose as I can climb in it, up to a point, and when things are open enough to ride at 20+ mph for some distance I can go to the big ring. But I’m old, have an older bike, bins of good older stuff, that I’m not interested in swapping out my 3x8 drivetrain. But I mix-n-match cogs and set it up how I want, it doesn’t apply to anyone else. I profess no magic gearing formula for others. I’m not stupid, I could duplicate what I have with a 1x if I was so inclined. I also realize that the future of the sport lies with the youth. But hopefully I can continue to ride for enough years to eventually have a 20lb 1x with a bit of e-assist to flatten things out when needed. And dump that FD for good.. John
The only actual debate is whether 2x has substantial drawbacks, minor drawbacks, or no drawbacks. No advantages vs 3x though.
11-04-21, 05:51 AM
#382
Jedi Master
This reminded me. We haven't brought up Rohloff hubs in this thread yet. I'd get one of those for touring over any derailleur system at a similar price-point, so there you go. 1x for loaded touring too. In a world of unlimited resources there is no need for triples.
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11-04-21, 05:57 AM
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A good triple, cassette, RD and FD would be maybe 10% the cost of a Rohloff setup or my 1x12 SRAM red wondergyzmo awaiting the call of shame
11-04-21, 05:59 AM
#384
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I'm not sure what point you are attempting to make here, but there are a lot more expensive groupsets than Ekar 1x13. Like 12 speed etap for example, which is more than double the cost.
11-04-21, 06:02 AM
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12 and 13 speed groups are not cheap.
Triples are cheap and they provide much better gearing for many types of riders in many terrains at a much, much lower cost.
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11-04-21, 06:13 AM
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Lol .... this whole thread is about some old guy who likes to make controversial statements, saying that 1x is useless and triples need to make a comeback. Even he doesn't believe what he said.
Also, @livedarklions---I make a strict delineation between "flat-bar road bikes" and "hybrids." There are bikes like the Giant Fastroad or the Specialized in post #376, which are designed for quick road riding in a more upright posture as opposed to bikes where the riders tend to sit much more upright and have low-travel front suspensions.
Whatever. I have my issues, you have yours, and the rest of the world is screwed up in too many ways to count. No one I know rides the way you do .... but it works for you.
Also, @livedarklions---I make a strict delineation between "flat-bar road bikes" and "hybrids." There are bikes like the Giant Fastroad or the Specialized in post #376, which are designed for quick road riding in a more upright posture as opposed to bikes where the riders tend to sit much more upright and have low-travel front suspensions.
Whatever. I have my issues, you have yours, and the rest of the world is screwed up in too many ways to count. No one I know rides the way you do .... but it works for you.
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11-04-21, 06:20 AM
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As usual you just have to talk down to everyone. But you always dig yourself into absurd holes and make up arguments that people are not even having.
11-04-21, 06:24 AM
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11-04-21, 06:26 AM
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My touring bike is half step plus granny, so, I do shift the FD. But, I agree. Using a fairly tight cluster and in some terrain, only the middle ring is needed on my 4 other triple bikes. In hills, I appreciate the 26T granny chainring on the tandem and the 24T on the loaded touring bike. I use all three rings on my mountain bikes, too.
Imagine lining up to a criterium with a triple crank>...I suppose someone did it........ once.
Imagine lining up to a criterium with a triple crank>...I suppose someone did it........ once.
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11-04-21, 06:27 AM
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11-04-21, 06:27 AM
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Still it's given me some useful thought about 1x vs 2x on my next road bike.
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11-04-21, 06:51 AM
#392
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question wasn’t for me but I’ll answer. Intervals can require specific gears, like if I’m doing a workout where I’m trying to average 265w on an interval, I may sometimes find one gear requires me to spin way faster than I really want to to get to the target power, so a bit too easy of a gear, but the next higher gear on my 8 speed road bike could have me with a lower cadence than I like to maintain. It’s not always, but sometimes there’s a desire to have a tighter range to dial in the right combo of power and cadence.
A lot of people that train do polarized training and spend most of their time on a bike noodling around (80/20, is very common). I'm a fantastic and frequent noodler and take no offense to my statement.
As far as running yourself ragged in any gear, but at different speeds... no, not quite. Assuming flat terrain and consistent position, traveling at a certain speed is going to require a specific amount of power regardless of gearing and cadence, whether that's high torque and low cadence or low torque and high cadence or anywhere in between. The important this is that if you change the speed, you change the power requirements and are no longer hitting the prescribed interval.
While lower intensity intervals (sweet spot/quasi-noodling) can give you a lot of leeway in selecting a balance between torque and cadence, intervals at/above threshold can, and often should, by design, tax your system as a whole, musculature and cardio, to a point close to failure. Imagine a flat ground speed that's doable but challenging for you to hold for 5 minutes... and then do it 5 times in a row with a minute of rest between each effort. By the middle of the third effort, you should be absolutely preoccupied with monitoring and debating whether your legs hurt more than your lungs burn, and that's where tight gearing comes in. If you can actually go to a cog that's either two teeth smaller or two teeth larger, and still complete the series of intervals, then you're probably going too easy and you need to up the intensity.
As far as running yourself ragged in any gear, but at different speeds... no, not quite. Assuming flat terrain and consistent position, traveling at a certain speed is going to require a specific amount of power regardless of gearing and cadence, whether that's high torque and low cadence or low torque and high cadence or anywhere in between. The important this is that if you change the speed, you change the power requirements and are no longer hitting the prescribed interval.
While lower intensity intervals (sweet spot/quasi-noodling) can give you a lot of leeway in selecting a balance between torque and cadence, intervals at/above threshold can, and often should, by design, tax your system as a whole, musculature and cardio, to a point close to failure. Imagine a flat ground speed that's doable but challenging for you to hold for 5 minutes... and then do it 5 times in a row with a minute of rest between each effort. By the middle of the third effort, you should be absolutely preoccupied with monitoring and debating whether your legs hurt more than your lungs burn, and that's where tight gearing comes in. If you can actually go to a cog that's either two teeth smaller or two teeth larger, and still complete the series of intervals, then you're probably going too easy and you need to up the intensity.
Thanks, guys! I think I see what my conceptual error was--I'm thinking of intervals as being maxing out the capacity of your CV system for a given period, and I think that's approximately right, but what I missed is you measure that by a watts target, and as we know, all other things being equal, speed is a pretty good proxy for watts (obviously, not in a headwind or on a climb). I don't monitor/train formally, so that watts translation just isn't part of my thinking.
I really appreciate your patient, polite and clear explanations. Maybe you can explain to GhostRider62 how it's done as he/she seems incapable of clarity and civility..
WhyFi -- I've decided to give myself the title of "High Performance Noodler" . Hope you don't mind.
11-04-21, 07:01 AM
#393
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You have to be kidding right? Triples are only cheap because they are obsolete. That happens to be a practical advantage for those who like them, but not a fundamental argument in their favour. If etap was 3x, do you think it would be "much, much lower cost" than 2x?
As usual you just have to talk down to everyone. But you always dig yourself into absurd holes and make up arguments that people are not even having.
As usual you just have to talk down to everyone. But you always dig yourself into absurd holes and make up arguments that people are not even having.
1x13 is very expensive way to get a gear range, comparatively.
OP said it did not make sense. I am pretty sure I have given a lot of evidence to the support that.
You basically told him to get a clue or to think more about it. Yet, you have not given any real consideration to why a triple makes sense to the OP.
Have you?
Do you think a man of his age would be happy with a 1X on a recumbent in the hills? How about a tandem rider? Trike rider? Any lower W/Kg rider? These are not so tiny markets as a whole, despite your dismissive assertions
11-04-21, 07:07 AM
#394
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Ok, enough of the gearing talk. Here's the really important issue that needs to be discussed:
Are the OP and his cycling crew Garth Brooks fans? You decide.
Are the OP and his cycling crew Garth Brooks fans? You decide.
11-04-21, 07:13 AM
#395
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Lol .... this whole thread is about some old guy who likes to make controversial statements, saying that 1x is useless and triples need to make a comeback. Even he doesn't believe what he said.
Also, @livedarklions---I make a strict delineation between "flat-bar road bikes" and "hybrids." There are bikes like the Giant Fastroad or the Specialized in post #376, which are designed for quick road riding in a more upright posture as opposed to bikes where the riders tend to sit much more upright and have low-travel front suspensions.
Whatever. I have my issues, you have yours, and the rest of the world is screwed up in too many ways to count. No one I know rides the way you do .... but it works for you.
Also, @livedarklions---I make a strict delineation between "flat-bar road bikes" and "hybrids." There are bikes like the Giant Fastroad or the Specialized in post #376, which are designed for quick road riding in a more upright posture as opposed to bikes where the riders tend to sit much more upright and have low-travel front suspensions.
Whatever. I have my issues, you have yours, and the rest of the world is screwed up in too many ways to count. No one I know rides the way you do .... but it works for you.
I think we broadened out the topic into the virtues/drawbacks and/or history of triples, which was a lot more interesting topic to me than the phony-baloney 1x vs. 3x "debate" of the OP. I'm a bit prejudiced on the subject of hybrids as I was a fairly early adopter of a high quality version, and then used "comfort" bikes later as a bike that was adaptable to commuting and hauling around children (triples came in handy for the latter, btw).
I'm pretty sure there were several years where hybrids dominated the bicycle sales, and I just think it's damn interesting that people are sort of editing those years out of their memory.
BTW, my FX 3 was a 2017 model, which was geared as a 48t triple and I think would probably qualify as a flat bar road bike under your definition (no suspension, btw). Since then, Trek has regeared it into 1x, which is definitely aimed more at off-road and lower speed riding. As such, it holds no appeal to me whatsoever.
Tell you what, consider my "don't forget the hybrids" a friendly amendment to your history of the triple and we really have no disagreement.
11-04-21, 07:17 AM
#396
Jedi Master
I just visited the Santana (tandem) and Bacchetta (recumbent) websites. Every single new build is 2x11, which kind of surprised me actually.
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11-04-21, 07:27 AM
#397
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Let's say you are doing la Marmotte in the French Alps and after ascending Galibier, there are long 2-5% stretches before tackling the l'alpe d'huez. A big gear is nice at that point. OTOH, the climb is pretty modest save for one or two very short grunts. I have done it on a racing bike both directions and the northbound twice with 100 pound loaded bike. Such modest pitches are not tuck and stop pedaling stretches. Also, note that I mentioned river valleys as a place where such a big gear is nice, especially with two engines on board a tandem.
11-04-21, 07:31 AM
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Interesting. Maybe.... triple cranks are no longer made.....or exported to the USA. The triple FD is the hardest part to obtain. I can only recall seeing one tandem that wasn't a triple, a very strong rando mixed team but I am sure plenty of doubles used. Maybe my wife needs to work harder.
11-04-21, 07:37 AM
#399
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Your typical response is along the same lines.
You seemed to want to know that time rather than just quibble and argue as usual. I often think, "what is wrong with you, but refrain" In any case I guess I was wrong......you do not want to learn or understand the other perpsective
You seemed to want to know that time rather than just quibble and argue as usual. I often think, "what is wrong with you, but refrain" In any case I guess I was wrong......you do not want to learn or understand the other perpsective
Wow, is that some sort of insulting apology? "I guess I was wrong" doesn't usually get paired with a couple of personal insults.
There was nothing in my posted question that indicated I was challenging anything, I actually said I understood the perspective and just wanted one thing clarified AND I wasn't talking to you. Based on nothing, you then launched into a personal attack, then went on to an explanation that was clear as mud and then said I was incapable of understanding it.
Let's put it to you this way, I have no interest in learning from you as I don't think you're capable of teaching, or even talking to people who have a different perspective. I have a totally different approach to cycling than people like PeteHski , WhyFi kingston and quite a few others, but I enjoy talking to all of them about all these differences because they're not condescending to me and they don't take questions as somehow impolite challenges. I like to learn about what they're doing. I probably won't change what I'm doing as a result, but I don't think we're really in it to convert each other. They're also about a hundred times better writers than you are.
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11-04-21, 07:45 AM
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Thanks, guys! I think I see what my conceptual error was--I'm thinking of intervals as being maxing out the capacity of your CV system for a given period, and I think that's approximately right, but what I missed is you measure that by a watts target, and as we know, all other things being equal, speed is a pretty good proxy for watts (obviously, not in a headwind or on a climb). I don't monitor/train formally, so that watts translation just isn't part of my thinking.
WhyFi -- I've decided to give myself the title of "High Performance Noodler" . Hope you don't mind.
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