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Raphael Geminiani Special 1962?

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Raphael Geminiani Special 1962?

Old 12-08-20, 05:08 PM
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Matador6
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Raphael Geminiani Special 1962?

Here are some more pictures of my recently bought Raphael Geminiani Special (you can see the 'ghost' image of the original decals of "R. Geminiani Special" still visible in the pictures). The paint also appears to be the team color of the St Raphael team. As some of you already know, the bike was stripped of most of its original parts over the years, but I've been shaking the research tree a bit and I think I'm ready to show it to you all. My hope is that some folks here who are more knowledgeable than I can help flesh out some more details that I have not been able to.
So, this RG Special frame was apparently made by Gitane (although there still are some uncertainties here) in France and imported to (presumably) the Huffman factory in Azuza, California between 1959 and 1962. It was in the City of Riverside, CA no later than 1962.
Like I said, most of the components were removed over the years, but there were a few hints and clues that have helped me out. This is what I believe the bike is or was outfitted in:
Dropouts are Campagnolo
Nervex Professional lugs
Brakes were MAFAC and stamped Dural Forge (the handlebars, PIVO stem, and and MAFAC brake levers in the pictures are not original to the bike, but are from the 1950s)
Derailleurs were Campagnolo Grand Sport (matchbox type front derailleur)
TA crankset Cyclotouriste
Lyotard 45 pedals and Christophe toeclips
I also have the original seat post (not pictured) and the seat post clamp bolt has a very interesting logo on the bolt head that (aside from looking like the Grateful Dead's logo) I have not been able to identify. For your viewing pleasure and comment.









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Old 12-08-20, 05:14 PM
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Don't have any more info, but sure do enjoy seeing grand old bikes like this with history being preserved and taken care of. Will be interested in seeing what you do with it!
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Old 12-08-20, 05:57 PM
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Looking forward to seeing the build. This is a neat bike with some history behind it.
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Old 12-08-20, 06:26 PM
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-----

appears to have come with a Verot chainset. for the date given would expect a model 57.





have seen the lightning symbol on the binder previously but do not know or recall the manufacturer who employed it. "most" french production cycles came with a binder manufactured by ALGI.

see nothing to contra-indicate a MICMO origin for the frame; the "fishmouth" treatment of the stays where they join the dropouts is something seen on quality model MICMO products, but certainly not exclusive to them.

another producer of quality Geminiani models was Cizeron.

does steerer bear a Reynolds marking, or is it NERVOR?

PIVO stem/bar set appears correct for model and time. IIRC PIVO and Philippe brands were under the same roof at one point. stem closely similar to the Philippe model 40. here is an earlier edition of this stem, sometimes referred to by enthusiasts as "lugged" -








Lyotard 45 pedals are mentioned; this would likely be the model 45CA -




fortunate that MAFAC brake levers are the date correct early type with brass pivot pins and the narrower/rounder lever -




---

sadly, appears that NERVEX pegs Ref. 845 & 846 to carry an AD HOC frame pump on the underside of the top tube have been "drewed"

should you elect to go for a respray you might wish to consider adding these back...

-----

Last edited by juvela; 12-08-20 at 06:50 PM. Reason: add image
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Old 12-08-20, 06:37 PM
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I don't remember many of the details from the craigslist listing for this bike in Laguna Beach shortly before it appeared as a frame on ebay. The photos were abysmal. But I do recall that it was a complete bike at that time and had MAFAC Top 63 brakes, also a Stronglight chainset as mentioned by @juvela. I think it was a 49d but it could have been a model 57. The photos were truly bad.
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Old 12-09-20, 12:31 PM
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No great help beyond what you already have found out but here are some pictures of one that passed through my hands a few years ago. I dated it to around 1960 but looks very similar to yours. This one had Simplex dropouts though.










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Old 12-09-20, 04:20 PM
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@juvela juvela, as always you are a treasure of very helpful information!!! Thank you so much!!
So, piece by piece;
I am surprised you concluded it would have had a Stronglight model 57 chainset. What makes you think this? The previous owner said the chainset he removed from the bike was TA (I assumed cyclotouriste from the age) but perhaps this is not original. The crown race (I think that is the correct term) is marked as "Stronglight Competition", but I don't know if that would eb a clear indicator that the chainset would be as well. Please explain why you thin it should be Stronglight.

I am happy you have at least seen the lightning bolt symbol before...I was beginning to wonder because no one else has mentioned seeing it.

Thank you for your confirmation on what looks like a MICMO construction! I think it was on another forum posting that someone mentioned finding a French news article stating Geminiani racing bikes were to be built by Cizerone in 1966 (and presumably beyond, as they were still building them in 1971), they are also based in St. Etienne, but the Cizerone models I have seen have a serial number stamped on the bottom bracket (which mine does not).

Steerer still shows the image of the Reynolds 531 decals.

I am also very glad to hear what you are saying about the Pivo stem, bars, and MAFAC brake levers. That is the only major piece I have bought for the restoration so far. I saw it for sale and with the correct era MAFAC logos, and I knew I wouldn't have many opportunities like that, so I took a chance and bought them. Thank you for the additional PIVO and Phillippe photographs. Very interesting.

Pedals; so Lyotard 45 and 45CA are the same models or the most likely 45 related model? I wasn't sure about that. Thank you!

Yes, very sad the pegs for the pump were removed. I am planning on replacing them (and then respray). I found one frame builder supply company that makes the peg portion of the brackets but the bracket in the shape of a "C" is proving very difficult to find.
Again, thanks for your help and I look forward to hearing more about your thoughts on the chainset!
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Old 12-09-20, 04:35 PM
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@obrentharris Good to hear from you again! I really appreciate your remembering the online add!
I'm looking forward to hearing more on the Stronglight chainset. I asked the gentlemen I bought the bike from what components he took off the bike before he sold it to me and he specified a TA chainset (but perhaps this wasn't original).
The trouble with the TOP 63 brakes being original to the bike is actually two fold. First, the seller specifically said that the brakes he took off the bike were marked Dural Forge MAFAC, not TOP 63 MAFAC. Moreover, the bike registration is from 1962. MAFAC debuted at the Paris bike show in 1962. This show is usually run in the late fall. So, even if the bike had TOP63's at some point, I can't imagine that the brakes were debuted at the show, the deal was stuck for the order, the brakes delivered (assuming already manufactured), paired to frames, exported to the US, finally assembled in Azuza, shipped to a nearby California bike shop, sold, and registered with the city all within the span of a couple months between the Paris show and the end of the 1962 registration year.
Sorry for the long winded theory there, but this I do enjoy this type of research, I must admit.
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Old 12-09-20, 04:43 PM
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@BlueDevil63 Thanks for sharing the pictures! Specials are really hard to come by and any examples are always welcome. I actually came across your posting about this bike from about ten years ago, but these pictures were taken at a different location, I think. Anyway, I wrote down a note that you believed at the time the frame was built by Mercier. Do you recall what brought you to that conclusion? Also, I was wondering what pointed to conclude it was manufactured "around 1960" (I think you may have mentioned "early 60's" in the old post, but I don't think you mentioned where the date came from. I could be wrong on that)?
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Old 12-09-20, 04:59 PM
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Well Matador6, as I've informed you previously, Gitanes and Geminianis were both manufactured by MICMO up until 1966. You should go to Gitane USA website and look at the 1962 Gitane Catalog which lists the components (in French) on their bikes...should be virtually the same for Geminiani . I would look at the components on the 100 and 102 models as your frame looks more "race than rando" to me....Stronglight cranks on both. Would be model 57 as the model 63 doesn't debut for another year (like Mafac Top 63s). The Gitane 100 in 1962 had Mafac Tigers...as hard to find as Top 63s!
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Old 12-09-20, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Matador6
@BlueDevil63 Thanks for sharing the pictures! Specials are really hard to come by and any examples are always welcome. I actually came across your posting about this bike from about ten years ago, but these pictures were taken at a different location, I think. Anyway, I wrote down a note that you believed at the time the frame was built by Mercier. Do you recall what brought you to that conclusion? Also, I was wondering what pointed to conclude it was manufactured "around 1960" (I think you may have mentioned "early 60's" in the old post, but I don't think you mentioned where the date came from. I could be wrong on that)?
Most likely my recollection is bad. The pictures were in a folder named 60Geminiani. I recall coming to the Mercier conclusion based on discussions on the CR mailing list and another mailing list (I want to say iBOB but I can't remember). Sorry no firm recollection. As to the date I think it came partially from the style of Simplex dropout. I now see your questions in my old for sale thread. Sorry I wasn't subscribed to that thread. I did sell it, to someone on here I think. The pictures I just posted here are from when I bought the frame. The ones in the for sale thread are a few years later when I sold it. And better pictures. Sorry I can't be more helpful.

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Old 12-10-20, 02:45 AM
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Hi there
beautiful bike.
I have a few Raphael Geminiani bikes a 1500 and a Olympic love them also a massive Gitane collector
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Old 12-10-20, 08:20 AM
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@Markeologist Yes, you did reference the catalog on Gitane USA and I did go through them taking careful notes. I also utilized the totonvelo post you pointed me to and translated all six pages uses Goofle translate. But I wanted to post a better set of pictures with some of the data I have accumulated that would be separate from the catalog thread. Knowing that that catalogs are, as we discussed, no later than 1965 and my bike could be as early as 1959, I want to continue to ask around to see if anyone else sees something I haven't. As this is all pretty new to me it helps me learn more about applicable French components and history of French cycling. Great point on the Stronglight 57 being the correct model. So the model names at the time for Stronglight at the time were tied to the production debut, as well then? Is there a quality difference (at this time period) between TA and Stronglight? Would one be common on the racing circuit than the other?
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Old 12-10-20, 08:30 AM
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@BlueDevil63 It is helpful. Thank you. It also helps in that I know everyone laments the lack of clarity in french serial numbers, but I have a working theory on these Gitane made high end frames, but I don't have enough examples yet to prove or disprove it. Your info may be a great help in that regard, as so few Specials and Olympics seem to be out there. Thanks again.
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Old 12-10-20, 08:35 AM
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@Addamsmith Hello, Addam! I think we have had some discussions on some of our facebook groups. You have some great bikes, there!
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Old 12-10-20, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Matador6
... I asked the gentlemen I bought the bike from what components he took off the bike before he sold it to me and he specified a TA chainset (but perhaps this wasn't original)...
My apologies for spreading false information. As I think more about it I think the Stronglight crank was on another craigslist bike around the same time. I suppose that I may have also mistaken the Dural Forge Racers for Top 63s in the rather blurry photos.
Mea culpa.
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Old 12-10-20, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Matador6
@Markeologist Yes, you did reference the catalog on Gitane USA and I did go through them taking careful notes. I also utilized the totonvelo post you pointed me to and translated all six pages uses Goofle translate. But I wanted to post a better set of pictures with some of the data I have accumulated that would be separate from the catalog thread. Knowing that that catalogs are, as we discussed, no later than 1965 and my bike could be as early as 1959, I want to continue to ask around to see if anyone else sees something I haven't. As this is all pretty new to me it helps me learn more about applicable French components and history of French cycling. Great point on the Stronglight 57 being the correct model. So the model names at the time for Stronglight at the time were tied to the production debut, as well then? Is there a quality difference (at this time period) between TA and Stronglight? Would one be common on the racing circuit than the other?
Its good (and I think enjoyable) to do research but you should build upon your existing data. You know your bike is a Geminiani and you know your bike is no newer than 1962 (license is really cool). You also know that Geminianis in first half of 60s were MICMO along with Gitanes. Folks who have come before you have done lots of research, some is crap but most is good, use the good stuff (backed by data). Myself, I look at old race photos, primarily from 1960s as that is where my interest lies....internet, magazines, catalogs, and books are good sources. A real good book to start with is "Shoulder to Shoulder: Bicycle Racing in the Age of Anquetil" … about $15 on Amazon. I've looked for historic Geminiani bikes racing in period, very very little for late 50s/early 60s. Issue is that Geminiani was directeur sportif for St.-Raphael cycling team which ran from roughly 1959 to 1964...but in my looking, I find them riding Helyetts and then Gitanes before they morphed into Ford-France for 1965 and 1966 (riding Gitanes in 65 and both Geminianis and Anquetil-branded bikes by Cizerone in 66). Very unlikely another major team was riding Geminiani bikes while he was directeur sportif for St.-Raphael. There are re-pop jerseys for St.-Raphael-Geminiani...I just haven't found clear evidence that they rode Geminianis during this edition of the team. Since your bike seems to fall in this period, roughly 1959 to 1962, I would look at contemporaneous Gitanes. Not sure if you have ever seen this bike (not mine), top-notch resto of a Gitane found over on GitaneUSA site...it is contemporaneous with your Geminiani, has Mafac Tigers too but is all Campy otherwise (fork tube cut for Campy stack height, not Stronglight). You can easily see the early-60s MICMO traits including their unique pump pegs....some inspiration for you.



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Old 12-10-20, 11:11 AM
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...and concerning Stronglight cranks over TAs...I see Stronglights (and Campy) on the race teams in later 50s into 60s with Campy starting to dominate the racing scene as the 60s progressed. Only a couple French teams, Mercier and Peugeot, seem to be still using Stronglights into later 60s (63s and then 93s). I'm putting a Stronglight 63 on my Gitane CdM/100. ...another book recommendation is "Rebour; The Bicycle Illustrations of Daniel Rebour." His illustration are extremely detailed and he drew most of the TdF winning bikes from later 50s into 70s. You can easily see which teams used Stronglight cranks and which used Campy. Just don't see TAs on race bikes until the late 70s/early 80s and that is on early Mtn Bikes.

Last edited by Markeologist; 12-10-20 at 11:34 AM.
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Old 12-10-20, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Markeologist
Its good (and I think enjoyable) to do research but you should build upon your existing data. You know your bike is a Geminiani and you know your bike is no newer than 1962 (license is really cool). You also know that Geminianis in first half of 60s were MICMO along with Gitanes. Folks who have come before you have done lots of research, some is crap but most is good, use the good stuff (backed by data). Myself, I look at old race photos, primarily from 1960s as that is where my interest lies....internet, magazines, catalogs, and books are good sources. A real good book to start with is "Shoulder to Shoulder: Bicycle Racing in the Age of Anquetil" … about $15 on Amazon. I've looked for historic Geminiani bikes racing in period, very very little for late 50s/early 60s. Issue is that Geminiani was directeur sportif for St.-Raphael cycling team which ran from roughly 1959 to 1964...but in my looking, I find them riding Helyetts and then Gitanes before they morphed into Ford-France for 1965 and 1966 (riding Gitanes in 65 and both Geminianis and Anquetil-branded bikes by Cizerone in 66). Very unlikely another major team was riding Geminiani bikes while he was directeur sportif for St.-Raphael. There are re-pop jerseys for St.-Raphael-Geminiani...I just haven't found clear evidence that they rode Geminianis during this edition of the team. Since your bike seems to fall in this period, roughly 1959 to 1962, I would look at contemporaneous Gitanes. Not sure if you have ever seen this bike (not mine), top-notch resto of a Gitane found over on GitaneUSA site...it is contemporaneous with your Geminiani, has Mafac Tigers too but is all Campy otherwise (fork tube cut for Campy stack height, not Stronglight). You can easily see the early-60s MICMO traits including their unique pump pegs....some inspiration for you.

Great looker, and it has my Capo Sieger's adjustable-reach stem, or a reasonable facsimile thereof.
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Old 12-11-20, 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by John E
Great looker, and it has my Capo Sieger's adjustable-reach stem, or a reasonable facsimile thereof.
beautiful Gitane
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Old 12-11-20, 02:02 PM
  #21  
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I had a top-model, full-Campag Geminiani come through my shop with a 495xx serial number, it had Gen1 Record cranks and a Brooks saddle dated 1961.

The dropout spring hole on yours appears to be absent on this one I worked on.

Here, I was testing wide-ratio derailers one day:

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Old 12-18-20, 02:20 PM
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@obrentharris Brent, No worries! I appreciate you help all the same!
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Old 12-18-20, 03:40 PM
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@Markeologist Thank you, again, and that is a beautiful period Gitane. Yes, I have been using team sponsorship information as well. Of course a big part of the problem is that riders of that period were not averse to re-badging frames that that they felt suited them on the racing team side of the house, and on the production for sale side, apparently local retailers making clones of Geminianis in the late 50's early 60s was not unheard of, when they were in high demand. I've come across two comments in online forums where a bike seller in Normandy and another in Luxembourg sold unlicensed Geminiani clones (the Luxembourg example reported about twenty bikes produced). But going back to the racing team, Geminiani's team actually started in 1954, with Dominique Fonzy manufacturing the bikes, according to Geminiani himself. From what I can tell, the company St. Raphael became involved with the team in 1954, but may not have appeared on jerseys until the following year. 1956 is the earliest picture that I've come across that is datable and where Raphael is clearly riding a Geminiani branded bike. I was also made privy to a 1958 catalog (cover only I'm afraid) for M. Randoin & Fils just recently. I'm not sure if this company made frames or just components or something, but the catalog cover is devoted to the 1958 team. This cover is interesting, because it isn't until 1958 that Gitane appears on the team jerseys. Gitane appears on the team jerseys, in one way or another, until 1966. Sometimes, like the 1959 Rapha jerseys, they seem to alternate using Gitane or Geminiani on the jersey. The exception to that, as you refer to, is the 1962 team, when the St. Raphael team was co-sponsored by Helyett. 1962 was also the year that, even though Geminiani was D.S. for St. Raphael, saw the Leroux team take the field. Some Leroux jerseys have Gitane embroidered on them, while others have Geminiani. It's all very confusing and sometimes frustrating, but also fascinating, I think.
I just wish the companies reproducing wool jerseys would get off the 1962 trip, and produce something that says Geminiani on it. All the repros I've seen with Geminiani included are just modern jerseys with with the old pattern printed on them.
Also, here's a screenshot of some notes I've taken along the way comparing the racing team bikes to the production/export bikes. Nothing definative, mind you, but just notes, for what it's worth.
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Old 12-18-20, 03:46 PM
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@dddd Thanks very much for the picture! Was the owner of this bike using it for an L'Eroica? I think I recall you posting something about this bike somewhere, but the picture didn't show the serial number. Very interesting about the spring holes. I think you mentioned in the old post that the dropouts were campy, yes?
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Old 12-19-20, 02:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Matador6
@Markeologist Thank you, again, and that is a beautiful period Gitane. Yes, I have been using team sponsorship information as well. Of course a big part of the problem is that riders of that period were not averse to re-badging frames that that they felt suited them on the racing team side of the house, and on the production for sale side, apparently local retailers making clones of Geminianis in the late 50's early 60s was not unheard of, when they were in high demand. I've come across two comments in online forums where a bike seller in Normandy and another in Luxembourg sold unlicensed Geminiani clones (the Luxembourg example reported about twenty bikes produced). But going back to the racing team, Geminiani's team actually started in 1954, with Dominique Fonzy manufacturing the bikes, according to Geminiani himself. From what I can tell, the company St. Raphael became involved with the team in 1954, but may not have appeared on jerseys until the following year. 1956 is the earliest picture that I've come across that is datable and where Raphael is clearly riding a Geminiani branded bike. I was also made privy to a 1958 catalog (cover only I'm afraid) for M. Randoin & Fils just recently. I'm not sure if this company made frames or just components or something, but the catalog cover is devoted to the 1958 team. This cover is interesting, because it isn't until 1958 that Gitane appears on the team jerseys. Gitane appears on the team jerseys, in one way or another, until 1966. Sometimes, like the 1959 Rapha jerseys, they seem to alternate using Gitane or Geminiani on the jersey. The exception to that, as you refer to, is the 1962 team, when the St. Raphael team was co-sponsored by Helyett. 1962 was also the year that, even though Geminiani was D.S. for St. Raphael, saw the Leroux team take the field. Some Leroux jerseys have Gitane embroidered on them, while others have Geminiani. It's all very confusing and sometimes frustrating, but also fascinating, I think.
I just wish the companies reproducing wool jerseys would get off the 1962 trip, and produce something that says Geminiani on it. All the repros I've seen with Geminiani included are just modern jerseys with with the old pattern printed on them.
Also, here's a screenshot of some notes I've taken along the way comparing the racing team bikes to the production/export bikes. Nothing definative, mind you, but just notes, for what it's worth.
fantastic information
Thank you
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