How to clean chain on tour? Wet or dry lube?
#51
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 11,112
Bikes: 1961 Ideor, 1966 Perfekt 3 Speed AB Hub, 1994 Bridgestone MB-6, 2006 Airnimal Joey, 2009 Thorn Sherpa, 2013 Thorn Nomad MkII, 2015 VO Pass Hunter, 2017 Lynskey Backroad, 2017 Raleigh Gran Prix, 1980s Bianchi Mixte on a trainer. Others are now gone.
Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3426 Post(s)
Liked 1,441 Times
in
1,122 Posts
I use the Pedros one. From my previous post:
...
I have never carried a chain checker on a bike tour, but if you wanted to know when it is time to change a chain, a good chain checker is needed. I think only the Pedros and the comparable Park chain checkers are worth using, the other common ones over-estimate the elongation. Zinn has a good write up on chain checkers.
https://www.velonews.com/gear/measur...ar-accurately/
That type of chain checker needs to be used correctly, Park explains that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOaFF_4CqJg
In that Youtube video, at 1 minute, where they say pressure is maintained, that is a key to using that checker correctly. I have the Pedros checker but the Park one functions the same way. After I bought the Pedros one, I chucked my other cheap checkers that always gave bad estimates.
I have never carried a chain checker on a bike tour, but if you wanted to know when it is time to change a chain, a good chain checker is needed. I think only the Pedros and the comparable Park chain checkers are worth using, the other common ones over-estimate the elongation. Zinn has a good write up on chain checkers.
https://www.velonews.com/gear/measur...ar-accurately/
That type of chain checker needs to be used correctly, Park explains that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOaFF_4CqJg
In that Youtube video, at 1 minute, where they say pressure is maintained, that is a key to using that checker correctly. I have the Pedros checker but the Park one functions the same way. After I bought the Pedros one, I chucked my other cheap checkers that always gave bad estimates.
#52
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: northern Deep South
Posts: 8,844
Bikes: Fuji Touring, Novara Randonee
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2575 Post(s)
Liked 1,900 Times
in
1,192 Posts
I don't understand why the difference, but I know that there seems to be a huge range. We in our group of three all had the same chains at the end of the Trans America and they lasted long past that. Mine went 10k miles and was then replaced. The rings and cassette were still fine. I find that cassettes last me much longer than many folks typically report. I like to say it is the result of my silky smooth spin, byt I know that is BS.
FWIW I replace when 12 complete links measure 12-1/16" to 12-1/8" beyond that and rings and cassettes are getting damaged and likely will need replacement. I don't use those little chain measuring tools. They can give bad readings sometimes calling for a new chain when it isn't really worn. From Sheldon Brown on that:
FWIW I replace when 12 complete links measure 12-1/16" to 12-1/8" beyond that and rings and cassettes are getting damaged and likely will need replacement. I don't use those little chain measuring tools. They can give bad readings sometimes calling for a new chain when it isn't really worn. From Sheldon Brown on that:
I still use the cheap measuring tool. When it shows wear, then I get down on my hands and knees so I can see the metal tape measure or ruler. IME there's usually a couple hundred miles left on the chain before it hits 12 1/16", and replacement time. Call me old and lazy.
#53
Senior Member
I've never owned one of the little chain checking tools of any brand and don't carry anything for checking. I have had a shop check with a little tool and tell me I needed a chain in the middle of a tour. It measured barely over 12". I was pretty sure it was still fine, but let them swap it out rather than worry about it. I figured that once the number starts to get over normal it goes pretty quickly and I didn't want to have to watch it closely.
I figure that if I were to carry a tool it would be a piece of metal the appropriate length. It could be a piece of thin rod or bar carefully trimmed to the right length. No need for calibration marks. Just a go or no go reading.
The linear measurement is hard to do wrong.
I figure that if I were to carry a tool it would be a piece of metal the appropriate length. It could be a piece of thin rod or bar carefully trimmed to the right length. No need for calibration marks. Just a go or no go reading.
The linear measurement is hard to do wrong.
#54
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 11,112
Bikes: 1961 Ideor, 1966 Perfekt 3 Speed AB Hub, 1994 Bridgestone MB-6, 2006 Airnimal Joey, 2009 Thorn Sherpa, 2013 Thorn Nomad MkII, 2015 VO Pass Hunter, 2017 Lynskey Backroad, 2017 Raleigh Gran Prix, 1980s Bianchi Mixte on a trainer. Others are now gone.
Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3426 Post(s)
Liked 1,441 Times
in
1,122 Posts
I would need really strong reading glasses. Over a 12 inch length, 12 1/8 would be 1 percent, 12 3/32 would be 0.75 percent.
I used to do this with a 36 inch steel ruler but it was a hassle to take the chain off for a measurement. Then I bought one of the better chain checkers.
I used to do this with a 36 inch steel ruler but it was a hassle to take the chain off for a measurement. Then I bought one of the better chain checkers.
#55
Senior Member
I would need really strong reading glasses. Over a 12 inch length, 12 1/8 would be 1 percent, 12 3/32 would be 0.75 percent.
I used to do this with a 36 inch steel ruler but it was a hassle to take the chain off for a measurement. Then I bought one of the better chain checkers.
I used to do this with a 36 inch steel ruler but it was a hassle to take the chain off for a measurement. Then I bought one of the better chain checkers.
I suspect you are trying to read with more precision to an actual value than I am. For me a quick look shows a reading of 12" or noticeably more than 12". That is close enough to know whether i need a closer look to get an accurate reading if desired/required. The thing is that typically I have found that once they start to go they go pretty quickly so once they show noticeable wear I keep close track or just replace it.
A good indicator that doesn't require reading small calibrations on the ruler is to use half a pin as the maximum allowed "stretch". So a 12" rule or a 12" piece of metal with no calibrations works okay for me.
Also with a thin 12" rule like a Starrett machinists rule you can tell by feel on the pins if it is exactly 12", slightly over, or well over.
#56
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2332 Post(s)
Liked 2,094 Times
in
1,311 Posts
I measure the entire chain. I have a nail on the garage door frame where I hang a new chain and then I put the used chain up against it.
114 links is 57 inches.
1/4 inch is pretty easy to measure without my glasses. That is my spec.
0.4% of 24 links is 1 mm. Beyond my ability.
114 links is 57 inches.
1/4 inch is pretty easy to measure without my glasses. That is my spec.
0.4% of 24 links is 1 mm. Beyond my ability.
#57
Senior Member
I measure the entire chain. I have a nail on the garage door frame where I hang a new chain and then I put the used chain up against it.
114 links is 57 inches.
1/4 inch is pretty easy to measure without my glasses. That is my spec.
0.4% of 24 links is 1 mm. Beyond my ability.
114 links is 57 inches.
1/4 inch is pretty easy to measure without my glasses. That is my spec.
0.4% of 24 links is 1 mm. Beyond my ability.
#58
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2332 Post(s)
Liked 2,094 Times
in
1,311 Posts
5 seconds to remove a chain with quick link and 30 seconds to re-install.
Much easier to clean the chain rings and jockey pulleys with the chain off.
I recall a Zinn article in Velonews where he was shocked that his similar chain maintenance method was costing him 5 watts squirting white something or another lube with the laxy wipedown
Much easier to clean the chain rings and jockey pulleys with the chain off.
I recall a Zinn article in Velonews where he was shocked that his similar chain maintenance method was costing him 5 watts squirting white something or another lube with the laxy wipedown
#59
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,274
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 150 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6147 Post(s)
Liked 4,092 Times
in
2,325 Posts
https://clevercreations.org/can-wd-4...-as-lubricant/
makes for a different viewpoint...
makes for a different viewpoint...
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#60
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2332 Post(s)
Liked 2,094 Times
in
1,311 Posts
I used extra virgin olive oil once. Ran out of lube on a small island and it rained like hell.
#61
Senior Member
#62
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 11,112
Bikes: 1961 Ideor, 1966 Perfekt 3 Speed AB Hub, 1994 Bridgestone MB-6, 2006 Airnimal Joey, 2009 Thorn Sherpa, 2013 Thorn Nomad MkII, 2015 VO Pass Hunter, 2017 Lynskey Backroad, 2017 Raleigh Gran Prix, 1980s Bianchi Mixte on a trainer. Others are now gone.
Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3426 Post(s)
Liked 1,441 Times
in
1,122 Posts
If you are really that fast, you could probably replace five bike mechanics in most bike shops.
I will stick with the Pedros chain checker that gives me that precise 0.5 or 0.75 percent pass or fail determination.
#63
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2332 Post(s)
Liked 2,094 Times
in
1,311 Posts
It usually takes me a minute or two, ... or three to find that special quick link removal pliers that I only use a couple times a year plus half a minute to wipe the grime off the quick link halves, and the re-install usually takes a couple minutes to thread the chain through the jockey wheels and cassette while fighting the spring tension, then another half minute to thread it through the front derailleur while still fighting the spring tension.
If you are really that fast, you could probably replace five bike mechanics in most bike shops.
I will stick with the Pedros chain checker that gives me that precise 0.5 or 0.75 percent pass or fail determination.
If you are really that fast, you could probably replace five bike mechanics in most bike shops.
I will stick with the Pedros chain checker that gives me that precise 0.5 or 0.75 percent pass or fail determination.
I do not have a front derailleur, put the chain on the BB shell as it is being fed it thru the pulleys, it is a one step with a waxed chain, turn it sidewards and then rotate as being fed. Grap the tool and Snap. Put the chain onto the ring. Done. Let's call it a minute. Chains don't get clean unless taken off the bike. On tour, I try my best and then just replace them.
#64
Senior Member
In that case mine never do get clean, but I don't consider that a bad thing since I seem to get way better than average chain life as well as life of other drive train components. Better than when I did take chains off and clean them. I am convinced that the only cleaning required is application of lube and a good wiping down I consider solvents and detergents to potentially have a negative impact by allowing abrasive grit to penetrate deeper innto the chain. So I try to minimize their use. Maybe I am all wet on that, but I get very good results so I plan to keep doing what I am doing. It takes me a while to take a chain off and put it back because I do it so seldom (my chains seem to last forever and I only take them off to replace them) that I have zero practice and never bothered to buy any special tool for the quick links.
#65
Senior Member
ones persons clean enough is another persons filthy.
I'm clearly in the camp of using rags regularly keeps my chains and drivetrain pretty clean and like stae, my stuff tends to last and last, so for me it works. I'm also in the camp thinking that a real chain off-bike degreasing is going to need a really good application of lube to get into the important inner bits, but hey, whatever works for you.
I'm clearly in the camp of using rags regularly keeps my chains and drivetrain pretty clean and like stae, my stuff tends to last and last, so for me it works. I'm also in the camp thinking that a real chain off-bike degreasing is going to need a really good application of lube to get into the important inner bits, but hey, whatever works for you.
#66
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,274
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 150 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6147 Post(s)
Liked 4,092 Times
in
2,325 Posts
In that case mine never do get clean, but I don't consider that a bad thing since I seem to get way better than average chain life as well as life of other drive train components. Better than when I did take chains off and clean them. I am convinced that the only cleaning required is application of lube and a good wiping down I consider solvents and detergents to potentially have a negative impact by allowing abrasive grit to penetrate deeper innto the chain. So I try to minimize their use. Maybe I am all wet on that, but I get very good results so I plan to keep doing what I am doing. It takes me a while to take a chain off and put it back because I do it so seldom (my chains seem to last forever and I only take them off to replace them) that I have zero practice and never bothered to buy any special tool for the quick links.
The solvents in the chain lube actually serve the purpose to wash out the old oil along with any grit that has accumulated. Oil based lubricants are usually used sparingly so the benefit of the solvent is rather small.
Wiping the chain to keep it “clean” isn’t all that beneficial either. The act of wiping drives the grit into the chain because, again, it’s not the big bits of dirt you need to worry about. It’s the little stuff that gets in there and does the damage.
Grit is going to get you no matter what you do with oil based lubricants because of the nature of the lubricant. The oil serves to make a slurry out of the smallest particles of grit and then carries them into the chain where the grit can do its damage.
Wax based lubricants, on the other hand, serve as a block to the grit on the outside of the chain. Since the lubricant isn’t mobile, it doesn’t pump the grit into the chain. It also isn’t sticky so there is no mechanism for the grit and dirt to stay on the chain. Solvent wax lubricants are usually meant to flooded onto the chain…most of them instruct the user to have it physically dripping off the chain…partly to clean the chains and partly to ensure that enough wax remains in the chain after application to do the job. But…
Wax isn’t better at protecting the chain from wear than oil. However, oil isn’t better either. In oil based lubricants, you have flow so the pins on the chain doesn’t experience lubricant starvation as the pedaling pressure pushes the lubricant away from the pin. The oil flows back. But because of the grit that the oil carries, the pins get ground from that very grit. and the chain wears. With wax, you don’t have the grit doing damage but the pins experience lubricant starvation since the wax doesn’t flow. The metal on metal contact wears and the chain wears. Oddly enough, the wear is about the same for both lubricants You can’t win and you can’t break even.
The only reason I use wax lubricants is the cleanliness. Even if the application interval was shorter…it isn’t in my experience…I’d use it for that factor alone. I get to handle plenty of filthy chains at my volunteer job. I’d rather not handle them at home or on the road.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Likes For cyccommute:
#67
Senior Member
Your premise is flawed. The act of putting on lubricant drives grit into the chain. Most lubricants are largely solvent and even the ones that have a higher percentage of oil in them are still going to penetrate into the chain and carry anything on the outside of the chain into the inside of the chain. The grit that is needed to do damage is very small. Don’t worry about the boulders you can see on the outside, it’s the invisible dust that causes the damage. But just having oil…which is mobile…also pumps grit into the chain. The act of pedaling and then letting the bike sit will make the oil flow around the chain and will carry that grit with it.
The solvents in the chain lube actually serve the purpose to wash out the old oil along with any grit that has accumulated. Oil based lubricants are usually used sparingly so the benefit of the solvent is rather small.
Wiping the chain to keep it “clean” isn’t all that beneficial either. The act of wiping drives the grit into the chain because, again, it’s not the big bits of dirt you need to worry about. It’s the little stuff that gets in there and does the damage.
Grit is going to get you no matter what you do with oil based lubricants because of the nature of the lubricant. The oil serves to make a slurry out of the smallest particles of grit and then carries them into the chain where the grit can do its damage.
Wax based lubricants, on the other hand, serve as a block to the grit on the outside of the chain. Since the lubricant isn’t mobile, it doesn’t pump the grit into the chain. It also isn’t sticky so there is no mechanism for the grit and dirt to stay on the chain. Solvent wax lubricants are usually meant to flooded onto the chain…most of them instruct the user to have it physically dripping off the chain…partly to clean the chains and partly to ensure that enough wax remains in the chain after application to do the job. But…
Wax isn’t better at protecting the chain from wear than oil. However, oil isn’t better either. In oil based lubricants, you have flow so the pins on the chain doesn’t experience lubricant starvation as the pedaling pressure pushes the lubricant away from the pin. The oil flows back. But because of the grit that the oil carries, the pins get ground from that very grit. and the chain wears. With wax, you don’t have the grit doing damage but the pins experience lubricant starvation since the wax doesn’t flow. The metal on metal contact wears and the chain wears. Oddly enough, the wear is about the same for both lubricants You can’t win and you can’t break even.
The only reason I use wax lubricants is the cleanliness. Even if the application interval was shorter…it isn’t in my experience…I’d use it for that factor alone. I get to handle plenty of filthy chains at my volunteer job. I’d rather not handle them at home or on the road.
The solvents in the chain lube actually serve the purpose to wash out the old oil along with any grit that has accumulated. Oil based lubricants are usually used sparingly so the benefit of the solvent is rather small.
Wiping the chain to keep it “clean” isn’t all that beneficial either. The act of wiping drives the grit into the chain because, again, it’s not the big bits of dirt you need to worry about. It’s the little stuff that gets in there and does the damage.
Grit is going to get you no matter what you do with oil based lubricants because of the nature of the lubricant. The oil serves to make a slurry out of the smallest particles of grit and then carries them into the chain where the grit can do its damage.
Wax based lubricants, on the other hand, serve as a block to the grit on the outside of the chain. Since the lubricant isn’t mobile, it doesn’t pump the grit into the chain. It also isn’t sticky so there is no mechanism for the grit and dirt to stay on the chain. Solvent wax lubricants are usually meant to flooded onto the chain…most of them instruct the user to have it physically dripping off the chain…partly to clean the chains and partly to ensure that enough wax remains in the chain after application to do the job. But…
Wax isn’t better at protecting the chain from wear than oil. However, oil isn’t better either. In oil based lubricants, you have flow so the pins on the chain doesn’t experience lubricant starvation as the pedaling pressure pushes the lubricant away from the pin. The oil flows back. But because of the grit that the oil carries, the pins get ground from that very grit. and the chain wears. With wax, you don’t have the grit doing damage but the pins experience lubricant starvation since the wax doesn’t flow. The metal on metal contact wears and the chain wears. Oddly enough, the wear is about the same for both lubricants You can’t win and you can’t break even.
The only reason I use wax lubricants is the cleanliness. Even if the application interval was shorter…it isn’t in my experience…I’d use it for that factor alone. I get to handle plenty of filthy chains at my volunteer job. I’d rather not handle them at home or on the road.
but I totally get the not wanting to deal with filthy chains, me too, so keep things clean and apply lube carefully to each link only at the connecting bits, and wipe off excess after rides.
I will probably try some white lightning sometime, but I suspect its like some of the other super thin stuff Ive used in past, Prolink I think, super clean, which I really liked, but I really did find I had to apply it much more often than other lubes--but fast and clean.
as you say, it seems no matter what we tend to get the same mileage out of chains, so for me, I balance some wet riding and general habits I have. Besides, I have way more important stuff to worry about in life than this, so just use the various lubes that I have.
I must have at least 4 types kicking around, so white lightning will be the next tryout perhaps.
No idea what it costs up here in the Great White North.
#68
Firm but gentle
People don't add oil to their cars very often now, but 25 years ago I was at a busy gas station and found enough discarded one quart oil containers to nicely lube my chain. Most drivers are too impatient to let all the oil drain out. Squirting water out of a plastic bidon works poorly to clean, if you can do it multiple times it gets "okay", then lube right away; you will be better off than total neglect.
#69
Senior Member
Likes For staehpj1:
#70
Senior Member
White Lightning was a disaster for us on the first portion of the TA. I suspect it was because we followed the directions which at the time said to apply liberally and let sit overnight. We did so somewhat frequently and you can't imagine the waxy build up! We switched to T9 and applied sparingly, wiping off after spinning the pedals for a minute or so. It worked great and the chain stayed clean and shiny. I suspect that maybe white lightning might have been fine if applied similarly. I am not sure, but I think the recommended application is something more like that now.
#71
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 11,112
Bikes: 1961 Ideor, 1966 Perfekt 3 Speed AB Hub, 1994 Bridgestone MB-6, 2006 Airnimal Joey, 2009 Thorn Sherpa, 2013 Thorn Nomad MkII, 2015 VO Pass Hunter, 2017 Lynskey Backroad, 2017 Raleigh Gran Prix, 1980s Bianchi Mixte on a trainer. Others are now gone.
Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3426 Post(s)
Liked 1,441 Times
in
1,122 Posts
#72
Senior Member
White Lightning was a disaster for us on the first portion of the TA. I suspect it was because we followed the directions which at the time said to apply liberally and let sit overnight. We did so somewhat frequently and you can't imagine the waxy build up! We switched to T9 and applied sparingly, wiping off after spinning the pedals for a minute or so. It worked great and the chain stayed clean and shiny. I suspect that maybe white lightning might have been fine if applied similarly. I am not sure, but I think the recommended application is something more like that now.
#73
Senior Member
I guess maybe with sparing application your problem shows up. our experience with it was bad enough that I'll never try it again to find out.
#74
Senior Member
With the heavy application and leaving it on overnight there was no squeaking with the lubing frequency we used. I forget how often, but nothing like every day. Maybe 5-7 days? The build up was like nothing I had seen before or have seen since.
I guess maybe with sparing application your problem shows up. our experience with it was bad enough that I'll never try it again to find out.
I guess maybe with sparing application your problem shows up. our experience with it was bad enough that I'll never try it again to find out.
Last edited by Yan; 10-27-22 at 03:53 PM.
#75
aka Timi
Good grief! Wipe, lube, wipe takes less time than brushing your teeth! Heaven’s forbid, I even top up my tires every morning… oh, and brush my hair 😆