IPassGas

I'm new to hydraulic brakes. For those of you that tour with hydraulic brakes, can you suggest minimal tools and spare stuff I should carry in the event of a break down of the brake?
Do you carry a few ml of extra fluid (DOT5.1 in my case)?
Not related to tour, are special tools needed to shorten steel braided hydraulic hose that would be different from tools used to cut cable housing? From videos on youtube it appears not.

Thanks

M Rose

Disclaimer: I don’t have hydraulic brakes on my touring bike.

I would carry the fallowing pieces of kit while on an extended tour or bike pack trip.

1) several brake line splice unions (compatible with your current line)
2) several feet of brake line the same diameters as your line
3) several ounces of brake fluid and a bleeder kit.
4) rotor
5) possibly a caliper with pads.
5) wrench to undo lines at caliper and brake lever

You mentioned having braided steel line, I would generally think that unless you are going through seriously tight MTB type single track you shouldn’t have an issue with line failure.

Polaris OBark

Spare pads and something to reset the pistons (like a plastic tire lever) are all I would bring. Change the pads and rotors if either/both need it a few weeks before you leave (so they can bed in and can be verified to be trouble-free during loaded shake-down test rides). It is extremely unlikely you will have to do any bleeding, plumbing or anything else like that, let alone cut new hose, and unless you plan to tour where there are no bike shops for hundreds of miles, I wouldn't even worry about this (but, then, I don't have SRAM/Avid brakes).

staehpj1

I have found them pretty trouble free. I'd be happy to carry no spares for travle in the US or most countrys where parts would be available somehow within a few days either from a shop withing a couple hundred miles or by ordering. You could limp along with one brake if you had to. It might suck if it was the rear only in the mountains, If your tour is long enough to need new pads plan ahead for that either b carrying spares or by replacing early.

That said I have only used them on my MTB and not toured on them. They have required zero maintenance other than replacing pads and rotors in that usage so far though.

TiHabanero

My experience is from a shop mechanics perspective. Take it with a grain of salt as we tend to see the worst cases of abuse and neglect. Sram/Avid hydro brakes has the most issues where I live in Michigan. Shimano and Tektro have the least issues. Not sure if they take abuse and neglect better or it is superior engineering, but myself and the other mechs at the four shops all agree that Shimano and Tektro are the least problematic.
When touring in non-remote areas and countries, there is no need to carry spare calipers and line, just pads and the proper tools and knowledge needed to replace them while on the side of the road. It is quite easy to do. A spare rotor maybe, but likely won't be needed unless bent somehow. Extra fluid is not a bad idea, but unless replacing or repairing a line there will be no need for it.
If I were on a world tour the only choice for myself is cantilevers as they are everywhere and parts are aplenty all over the globe.

elcruxio

My experience over the years and over several bikes (mine and family) is that Sram/avid hydraulics are just bad. They're often leaky, difficult to maintain and incredibly underpowered. My shimano GRX brakes with 160mm rotors are in another world of power compared to the Sram Codes with 203mm rotors I had on my fatbike. Sram road brakes are just sad.

On the topic on touring I'd only use shimano brakes because of how easy the cup bubble bleed is. Insert cup, add a tiny amount of fluid in cup, pump brakes until all bubbles come out and presto. So essentially take the bleed cup and 20-30ml of fluid and a set of pads. If anything more pressing happens it's not something that can realistically be resolved on the road. Carrying hoses and stuff isn't worth it.

Though much as I love hydro brakes and I daydream of putting GRX on my touring bike, I'll stick with mechanics on my tourer. Fully metallic pads mean I can go multiple tours completely hassle free. I just wish I could get the GRX ergonomics with a triple crankset and mechanical brakes. Sora is fine but... well it's not grx.

Tourist in MSN

I have never used hydraulic bike brakes, so I have no clue what size bottles the fluid comes in. I assume the bottles are bigger than you want to carry on a tour. I have carried small volumes of hub oil for my IGH. I find that the disposable plastic bottles that motel shampoo come in work well for that but you need to rinse them thoroughly to get all of the surfactants out of the bottle.

djb

This is a hypothetical question isn't it?
Or are you going on tour, and if so, for how long and where (1st world or Timbuktu?)
Are your brakes new?

IPassGas

Thanks all for the information. I am a very reluctant newcomer to hydraulics. I have decided to upgrade our Rohloff tandem rear disc brake to something that can dissipate more heat during loaded tours in mountains. This mean switching to a Hope ventilated disk, which as far as I can tell, is the only ventilated option for Rohloff.

djb

I'm curious, what is the front brake system on your tandem?
The front brake is what should be doing a bigger job slowing down any bike, whether a UCI legal road bike or a touring bike tandem with panniers and two people--just as a F1 car vs a Toyota Yaris.

I know I'm like a broken record here, but to me its always a flag when rear brake ineffectiveness is mentioned, as this tends to indicate someone using predominantly rear braking, which is not effective braking and always leads to overheated rear brake system (whether rim, or mech disk or hydro) and not sufficient slowing down, which leads to more panicked rear brake application, snowball effect to more heating....

elcruxio

On top of what djb already mentioned, have you already gotten the new brake? Because if not, I would strongly urge you to consider a mineral oil option such as shimano or tektro instead of a DOT fluid one.

You can mix and match rotors as long as the diameters match and the thickness isn't too far off. Shimano uses 1.8mm rotors but a 2mm rotor won't be an issue.

If you haven't gotten the brake yet, consider mechanical. They handle heat better.

mev

My experience in rides with hydraulic brakes.
1. I took a mountain bike with hydraulic brakes on TDA riding across Africa. The ride was supported ride with a mechanic, so not a big worry. One of my fellow riders did have an incident cycling in Ethiopia that a kit throwing a rock knocked out her brake line. She rode rest of that day with just a rear brake and the mechanic replaced and filled the line after that.
2. I took along this same mountain bike on a multi-modal trip last summer. Dropping a rental car off at Albuquerque airport, using my bike to get around Albuquerque for a few days, taking Amtrak to Chicago, riding the bike through Chicago and then taking Amtrak to Austin. Somehow tipped on its side, my brake developed enough of a bubble in the line that it stopped working well. This underscored the need for me to learn just a bit more on how to fix that situation in future if I were going to take the bike flying/car carrying - before starting a tour remotely.

djb

Ya, the accidental damage thing is a concern for me, and my neighbour had a recurring bubble issue (hanging the bike upside down in his garage from a hook) that was perplexing.
Hydro stuff clearly requires a new set of mechanical and trouble shooting skills to learn and become competent working hands on with.
None of our bikes have hydraulic brakes, so haven't had to make that step yet.

Tourist in MSN

I have never ridden a tandem, so my level of knowledge is quite low. But, it is my understanding that on tandems that are used for long downhills, they often use a drum brake as a drag brake. But Rohloffs were not designed to fit the drum brakes usually used.

With an unladen solo bike, it is easy to skid the rear tire which limits braking effectiveness. Regarding front and rear braking distribution, you put two riders on a really long wheel base bike, add some panniers, and the front does not have much better braking than the rear because it is almost impossible to skid the rear tire. That is because the center of gravity of that loaded tandem is much more centered and is so much further behind the front wheel.


I have no clue which companies make rotors for Rohloffs because my Rohloff is rim brake only, but the choice is much more limited. They do not use standard six bolt rotors or centerlock rotors.

Tourist in MSN

Just an FYI, recently on another forum there was a thread on someone trying to improve braking on a Rohloff fitted tandem bike. There might be some ideas there that you had not considered.
Brakes with heat capacity

djb

Im pretty certain that the weight of a tandem doesnt change things. Its all about weight transfer during braking, just like in a 3-4000lb car , or a Honda Goldwing (heavy touring motorcycle)--the strongest brakes are on the front and slow the vehicle down much more (the old 60/40 bias or whatever it is with car brakes with one pedal operating both front and rear)

but even then, its easy to overheat car brakes too on a long descent if you drag the brakes for too long. We've probably all experienced this.

but I can certainly see the point that as a solo rider, used to braking strongly, thats ok, but on a tandem, without really good communication, very hard braking wouldnt be fun for the non-braker if it wasnt anticipated.
I also can appreciate the extra weight of a tandem is really going to increase the downhill momentum, so being able to shed heat is a huge deal.
I suspect though, that given that many people are shy of using front brakes strongly enough, with a tandem you can get into that scary territory of fading brakes with a weighted object that really will do a "runaway freight train" thing more than a solo bike.

c_m_shooter

I have had 1 mountain bike with hydrolic brakes for about 5 years. They are honestly the only part of the bike I have never had an issue with. I wouldn't worry about them.

IPassGas

Thanks for all the comments. Heat dissipation is critical for a loaded tandem in the mountains and we often tour for >1 month through the Appalachians or Rockies with camping gear. We have very good rim brakes (large iron oxide pads) and a standard rear 200 mm disc for Rohloff (metallic pads). We build speed to use air friction to slow and then brake (rotating through all 3 brakes) when speed is excessive >40 mph (can easily reach >55). But these speeds are not fun and sometimes momentarily touching the rims after stopping, hurts the fingers (so T > 70 C). I have recently added Omega temperature labels to determine max rim temperatures, but no further data yet.

From what I have read, the Hope ventilated 200 mm disc is the best disc on the market for heat dissipation. It is hydraulic, a non hydraulic version does not exist, and thus my entry into the hydraulic realm (reluctantly). I don't know of any other manufacturer of a ventilated disc, let alone for Rohloff (please chime in if I am wrong). I have considered building a front wheel with a Sturmey-Archer 90 mm drum hub, but there are reports of "smoking" the brake. I can only imagine what that does to the bearing grease. In fact, some German dude sells a modified Sturmey-Archer with cooling fins (kind of cool, pun intended).

Thanks for the info on what to carry on tour for repair. The hose is SS braid so will be difficult to accidently cut. Perhaps a bit of fluid and a set of pads, but otherwise our tool kit will suffice.

Chilepines

A bit of fluid is only useful if you have a way to get it into the system, so you also need the bleed setup. Hydraulic brakes, if setup properly at the outset, and super reliable so I'd skip bringing oil.
Not a bad idea to being a set of pads - not so much because you might wear them out, but if they get contaminated from something on the road. I once got asphalt into my brakes and it was a big pain to get cleaned out.

elcruxio

Personally I'd try to get more mass rather than ventilation as the vented disc is't that much better at shedding heat but it has far less mass.

You don't need to get a whole new brake. Just get the Hope rotor separately and see how it works out. Like I mentioned earlier you can mix and match rotors from diffferent manufacturers as long as the diameter matches (and in this case the bolt pattern as well)

djb

hi Gass,
from my loaded touring in similar mountainy areas, I really noticed a big difference when I got my first disc bike, mechanicals, compared to past touring in mountains with rim brakes.
Are you comfortable using the front brake very hard , along with your rear brake at the same time? I don't know if you've followed some of the past and recent past discussions on better braking techniques in big downhills to avoid brake fading, but from my experience, using all my brakes very strongly--with front really hard, dumps a bunch of speed very quickly to a reasonable speed, then I let off completely and let the bike run again, and if necessary (grade causing too much buildup again of speed) then another short really hard braking.
When I say short, maybe 5 seconds or less.

As we all know, and especially you guys on tandems, every situation is different for all the myriad of factors, but this method of using the front really hard along with the rear, dumps speed very effectively, and then by letting off again completely --ie NOT dragging brakes, allows the temps to bleed off by the air flow.

going disc was a huge difference for me, with so much more braking force using the front really hard along with rear--resulting in faster deceleration with so much LESS finger pressure needed. I can easily dump a bunch of speed very quickly, so less heat buildup that can dissapate faster at 30mph or whatever, so when I need to do this again in 10 seconds, or 30 or 1 minute, the brakes are as strong as new, no heat fade.

discs made descents more relaxing as I know I can dump speed easier and faster, so I can gawk at thesights more etc and know I have more safety in hand.

I realize your bike doesnt have front discs, but the difference is very significant with a heavy bike---WHEN you really haul on the front brake along with the rear.
I used to race motorcycles, and so probably am more comfortable using maximum front braking, plus I did offroad stuff too, and ride bicycles on dirt and snow a lot, so am comfortable feeling out how hard I can front brake before I loose traction.

anyway, hope you find a good solution that helps your braking.
The Appalachians I've heard have the steepest grades around, so you guys really know what you're talking about with descents.
cheers

IPassGas

Yes, we brake hard on all 3 brakes to slow. I have strong hands and mtb levers, so a lot of braking force. However, we pick up speed quickly and so the amount of time between braking events is short before we hit 40 or 50 mph again. After 3rd or 4th time....how hot are rims, don't really know and don't wish to cause a blowout at those speeds. Need about 100 C increase to compromise butyl rubber. I'm thinking.... get some data from the Omega rim temperature indicators and then make a decision, maybe we are well below blowout temps, just don't know.

djb

thanks, as I mentioned, I do appreciate how the added weight comes into play and as you say--how the time inbetween braking events is short.
I also appreciate that having a stoker also adds another aspect of responsibility of being cautious. On my own, I can makes quick decisions that only affect me, and not me and my wife at the same time (and she would not be at all comfortable with what I am comfortable with)

again, all the best with getting some better braking.

PhilFo 

I had a mountain bike from 1996 to 2013 with Magura HS33s that were completely trouble free. I flushed them a total of three times during the entire time I owned the bike. I did a lot of heavy mountain biking across the southwest, mostly in New Mexico, then joined the Navy. I was fortunate enough to be able to have storage in the "balloon inflation room" on the fantail of the aircraft carrier I was stationed on (I was a "weather guesser") and took that bike everywhere on two deployments. Bahrain, Dubai UAE, Perth Australia, Hobart Tasmania, Honolulu, Victoria BC, Hong Kong, Kuala Lumpur. I did some serious riding up in Washington state when stationed up there and did every trail near Philadelphia as well as a bit of upstate NY. Rode all over NYC as well. Never once did I have a problem with the hydraulics. I'm planning a cross-continent ride and I wouldn't hesitate to use a set of HS33s again. I can't speak for other brands, but I beat the crap out of those brakes in handling, moving cross country numerous times, as well as riding. As long as you're not going on an unsupported tour out to the middle of the Gobi desert, you should be braking just fine regardless what hydraulic brand you're using, as long as they are properly set up.

IPassGas

Wow, you have been some great places with that bike! My good friend's son is nearing 20 years in the navy, it has been tough on him. Having a bike with you perhaps helped with your wellbeing. "weather guesser"....I would say you were the "weather collector" which removed the guessing... gotta be important when on the high seas. Many people have good things to say about the Magura hydraulic rim brakes.