Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > General Cycling Discussion
Reload this Page >

Indexed vs Friction Shifters

Notices
General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

Indexed vs Friction Shifters

Old 06-01-23, 07:39 PM
  #51  
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 24,935

Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.

Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3571 Post(s)
Liked 3,367 Times in 1,916 Posts
Originally Posted by Eric F
Indexed shifting has been around for a pretty long time (40-ish years - not exactly “modern”, for bike technology). It has proven to be VERY reliable.
Longer than that, actually. Sturmey-Archer 3-speed hubs had indexed shifting starting in 1903. Modern, derailleur-based indexed shifting is much newer, as you note, and has become pretty reliable, albeit more complex, and potentially more expensive and difficult to service than friction shifting (getting a frayed cable out of an STI lever can be a challenge, and replacing a worn unit is often more cost effective than rebuilding it, and some grip-shift units are not worth bothering trying to service). Friction vs indexed is analogous to manual vs automatic transmission in automobiles. There is a learning curve in achieving quick, reliable friction shifting, but as my music teacher daughter put it, it's like learning to play the trombone: practice enough and your hand eventually learns where it has to stop.
JohnDThompson is online now  
Likes For JohnDThompson:
Old 06-01-23, 08:53 PM
  #52  
RCMoeur 
Cantilever believer
 
RCMoeur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,471
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 491 Post(s)
Liked 1,666 Times in 761 Posts
Originally Posted by jon c.
Then I found a vintage ride with DT friction. It just felt right. The old feelings returned. So I only have friction bikes now.
Sheesh. Someone starts a thread on shifting, and the next thing we get is the plot of a Manilow song.

(but such a song would have been popular during the Days of Friction, so it's all good)
__________________
Richard C. Moeur, PE - Phoenix AZ, USA
https://www.richardcmoeur.com/bikestuf.html
RCMoeur is offline  
Likes For RCMoeur:
Old 06-01-23, 09:19 PM
  #53  
ShannonM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Humboldt County, CA
Posts: 848
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 405 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 430 Times in 286 Posts
Can we at least all agree that indexed front shifting, especially on doubles, is stupid?

Even when it works well, which it often does, it's pointless. GripShift and older Campy Ergopower show this clearly.

As to the larger question:

Indexed shifting is fine. Friction shifting is fine. I have, and have had, bikes with each. I have, and have had, no desire to spend any money to change any bike from one to the other.

Also, get off my lawn!

--Shannon
ShannonM is offline  
Likes For ShannonM:
Old 06-01-23, 09:33 PM
  #54  
Atlas Shrugged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,629
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1217 Post(s)
Liked 1,281 Times in 653 Posts
Originally Posted by ShannonM
Can we at least all agree that indexed front shifting, especially on doubles, is stupid?

Even when it works well, which it often does, it's pointless. GripShift and older Campy Ergopower show this clearly.

As to the larger question:

Indexed shifting is fine. Friction shifting is fine. I have, and have had, bikes with each. I have, and have had, no desire to spend any money to change any bike from one to the other.

Also, get off my lawn!

--Shannon
No we can not! The fact we are still discussing friction shifting is ridiculous. This is like defending the use of hand cranking starting cars after the implementation of the electric starter.

By the way triples have ended up in the dustbin of history as well.
Atlas Shrugged is offline  
Old 06-01-23, 10:45 PM
  #55  
ShannonM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Humboldt County, CA
Posts: 848
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 405 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 430 Times in 286 Posts
Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
No we can not! The fact we are still discussing friction shifting is ridiculous. This is like defending the use of hand cranking starting cars after the implementation of the electric starter.

By the way triples have ended up in the dustbin of history as well.
Triples have ended up in the dustbin of marketing and manufacturing, not the dustbin of history.

They still exist, you can still buy them, and they still make just as much sense as they ever did, for the use cases for which they've always made sense.

Namely, those use cases for which overall gearing range needs to be maximized, and gaps between gears need to be minimized. Given the limitations of bicycle drivetrains, the only way to optimize both of those constraints is to add gears at both ends of the drivetrain. You pay a cost in mechanical complexity and ease of use, but.... TANSTAAFL.

And, to return to the argument I was actually making, what is the advantage of front indexed shifting on a 2 speed crankset? Or even a triple? I've had it on many bikes over the years, and it always worked reasonably well, (except for Shimano's why-in-the-hell-did-they-do-that road/ mtb front shifting incompatibility,) and I've never once thought that it was of any use whatsoever. There has literally never been a single front shift that I have ever made, or failed to make, in almost 40 years of riding multi-speed bicycles, where the presence or absence of an indexed front shifter would have made any difference.

At the rear end, there's an argument to be had.

But up front?

Nope.

--Shannon
ShannonM is offline  
Likes For ShannonM:
Old 06-02-23, 02:44 AM
  #56  
PeteHski
Senior Member
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,175
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4273 Post(s)
Liked 4,712 Times in 2,911 Posts
Originally Posted by genejockey
Of course! Indexed shifting predates brifters. Indexed DT shifters came out in about 1986 or so, and were available into the mid-90s. I've got bikes with 7 and 8 speed indexed DT shifters.
I had indexed DT shifters on my road bike in the mid 80s through to early 90s. They worked fine and although they had the option to work in friction mode I never used that mode. I think mine was 6-speed Shimano 105. Had a Biopace 105 chainset too, lol
PeteHski is online now  
Old 06-02-23, 03:06 AM
  #57  
PeteHski
Senior Member
 
PeteHski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,175
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4273 Post(s)
Liked 4,712 Times in 2,911 Posts
Originally Posted by icemilkcoffee
Reliability is very good with modern STI, but they do tend to gum up with high mileage. Especially in cold weather.
Whereas downtube shifters are much more foolproof. There is little mechanism to gum up, and very little cable housing to wear out. Another advantage of DT shifting is the mechanical feel. You can really feel the gear teeth engaging with the chain.
Downtube indexed shifting is the best option option for people who want to try out DT shifting. As for friction shifting - I see no reason for that to exist anymore.
I never had these issues, even on my mountain bikes. So reliability for me is a moot point. My current main road bike doesn't even have any cables.

There are currently no advantages in DT shifting that would even remotely interest me. I'm old enough to have gone through all the developments in gear shifting from friction DT 5-speed onward. At no point along that 50 year journey have I ever wished to return to DT shifters or friction shifting.
PeteHski is online now  
Likes For PeteHski:
Old 06-02-23, 09:30 AM
  #58  
RCMoeur 
Cantilever believer
 
RCMoeur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,471
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 491 Post(s)
Liked 1,666 Times in 761 Posts
Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
By the way triples have ended up in the dustbin of history as well.
"Cold dead fingers" and all that. Interestingly, I've been setting up several bikes as low-range-front doubles such as 40-24 or 36-22, as with 11-12s high cogs in back you don't need much in the front. Rather happy with the results. Typically put a cut-down worn-out chainring in the outer position as a chainguard.

(looks at my hoarded pile of neatly stored triple cranks, breathes a sigh of relief)
__________________
Richard C. Moeur, PE - Phoenix AZ, USA
https://www.richardcmoeur.com/bikestuf.html
RCMoeur is offline  
Likes For RCMoeur:
Old 06-02-23, 09:40 AM
  #59  
smd4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,641

Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3431 Post(s)
Liked 2,824 Times in 1,723 Posts
Originally Posted by genejockey
Of course! Indexed shifting predates brifters. Indexed DT shifters came out in about 1986 1984 or so, and were available into the mid-90s.
FIFY. Also, you could still get Dura Ace DT shifters for the 7900 group in 2008...

Last edited by smd4; 06-02-23 at 09:49 AM.
smd4 is offline  
Old 06-02-23, 10:04 AM
  #60  
rsbob 
Grupetto Bob
 
rsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Seattle-ish
Posts: 6,067

Bikes: Bikey McBike Face

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2512 Post(s)
Liked 5,427 Times in 2,826 Posts
When this Campy index shifter first came out, it was a game changer. Then came the Ergo shifters on my other bike, and now Ultegra brifters on my other.






__________________
Road 🚴🏾‍♂️ & Mountain 🚵🏾‍♂️







rsbob is offline  
Old 06-02-23, 10:17 AM
  #61  
smd4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,641

Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3431 Post(s)
Liked 2,824 Times in 1,723 Posts
Originally Posted by rsbob
When this Campy index shifter first came out, it was a game changer.
How was it a "game changer" when the game had already changed?
smd4 is offline  
Old 06-02-23, 10:19 AM
  #62  
Atlas Shrugged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,629
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1217 Post(s)
Liked 1,281 Times in 653 Posts
Originally Posted by RCMoeur
"Cold dead fingers" and all that. Interestingly, I've been setting up several bikes as low-range-front doubles such as 40-24 or 36-22, as with 11-12s high cogs in back you don't need much in the front. Rather happy with the results. Typically put a cut-down worn-out chainring in the outer position as a chainguard.

(looks at my hoarded pile of neatly stored triple cranks, breathes a sigh of relief)
My recent adventure rig setup is 11 speed, 46-30 and 11-40, which is more range than legacy triples, indexes perfectly and is evenly spaced. Triples made sense decades ago when the derailleur technology of the time could not manage large ranges or gear differentials.
Atlas Shrugged is offline  
Old 06-02-23, 10:36 AM
  #63  
genejockey 
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 17,657

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10244 Post(s)
Liked 11,599 Times in 5,945 Posts
Originally Posted by smd4
FIFY. Also, you could still get Dura Ace DT shifters for the 7900 group in 2008...
Yeah, that's why I said 1986 or so. I knew it was around then but I couldn't be arsed to look it up. I do know that my 1985 Centurion Ironman originally came with 6207 friction shifters, and that those were replaced in 1986 or 1987 by 6208 indexed shifters. Indeed, when I got it, the Ironman had 6208 shifters and RD, but as was common, all the tangs had broken off in the shifter so it only sorta indexed. I replaced them with 6207s, including the RD because the "slop" in the Centeron upper pulley wheel that works great for indexed shifting sometimes causes autoshifting or skipping under load when used with friction. Nothing quite like being in one gear, then standing on the pedals and suddenly being in another!

EDIT: Oh, yeah - DT shifters were available as late as that, but you'd have been hard pressed to find a new bike with them. I feel lucky to have a set of 8 speed RX100 DT shifters from 1995, because they were already going the way of the Dodo by then. I have them on a mid-90s Cannondale, and that big aluminum downtube amplifies the *clik!* sound wonderfully.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles

Last edited by genejockey; 06-02-23 at 10:39 AM.
genejockey is online now  
Old 06-02-23, 10:39 AM
  #64  
Wildwood 
Veteran, Pacifist
 
Wildwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 13,303

Bikes: Bikes??? Thought this was social media?!?

Mentioned: 284 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3876 Post(s)
Liked 4,780 Times in 2,205 Posts
My apologies for not reading every post - especially if this point has been raised. My opinion coming from a shifting perspective of friction, Ergo and Di2 w/discs all in my current riding group - and simpatico with each technology.

Once you get used to any or all styles of shifting (given the 'needs of your ride' requirements) - I find it to be just as much a matter of hand comfort on the hoods, as the actual shifting itself. Narrowest hoods on friction, wider on integrated, widest (on many groupsets) on integrated with hydraulic disc.

I change hand positions a lot throughout most rides - so while (brake) hood size/shape isn't directly a shifting issue - it may be a consideration affected by the tech one selects. IMHO


I prefer narrow. Not a necessity for every ride, but...


Levers are always prettier in silver, fwiw.
__________________
Vintage, modern, e-road. It is a big cycling universe.

Last edited by Wildwood; 06-02-23 at 11:12 AM.
Wildwood is offline  
Likes For Wildwood:
Old 06-02-23, 10:39 AM
  #65  
DonkeyShow
Full Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Posts: 333
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 195 Post(s)
Liked 234 Times in 141 Posts
With the indexed dt shifters do they click once then go back to center?
DonkeyShow is offline  
Old 06-02-23, 10:45 AM
  #66  
smd4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,641

Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3431 Post(s)
Liked 2,824 Times in 1,723 Posts
Originally Posted by DonkeyShow
With the indexed dt shifters do they click once then go back to center?
What do you mean? Like how integrated shift levers click and move back to where they were? If so, then no. DT levers click and stay. With my nine-speed, you pull the lever pretty far back--through eight separate clicks--to get it to the lowest gear.
smd4 is offline  
Old 06-02-23, 10:49 AM
  #67  
genejockey 
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 17,657

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10244 Post(s)
Liked 11,599 Times in 5,945 Posts
Originally Posted by DonkeyShow
With the indexed dt shifters do they click once then go back to center?
Nope. The click once and stay where you put them. Indexed DT levers simply have detents for each gear, and the lever directly pulls the cable, rather than a pair of levers turning or releasing an internal ratchet wheel that pulls the cable.

It's an interesting idea - a lever that you push one direction to up shift and the other direction to downshift, but the lever returns to the same place. But a lot of us who ride with DT shifters like to be able to look quickly at the shifters to see what gear we're in. With brifters, it doesn't matter as much because you can shift while braking for a stop, or even shift while standing on the pedals, while with DT shifters you have to take one hand off the bars to shift, so you have to plan ahead.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is online now  
Old 06-02-23, 10:49 AM
  #68  
smd4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,641

Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3431 Post(s)
Liked 2,824 Times in 1,723 Posts
Originally Posted by genejockey
EDIT: Oh, yeah - DT shifters were available as late as that, but you'd have been hard pressed to find a new bike with them. I feel lucky to have a set of 8 speed RX100 DT shifters from 1995, because they were already going the way of the Dodo by then.
In my eBay travels, just looking for random Dura Ace stuff I was surprised to see them for sale. For a long time I honestly thought my 7700 shifters were the last generation of DT shifters. Oops!

Last edited by smd4; 06-02-23 at 10:54 AM.
smd4 is offline  
Old 06-02-23, 10:50 AM
  #69  
rsbob 
Grupetto Bob
 
rsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Seattle-ish
Posts: 6,067

Bikes: Bikey McBike Face

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2512 Post(s)
Liked 5,427 Times in 2,826 Posts
Originally Posted by smd4
How was it a "game changer" when the game had already changed?
Game changer for me, since Ergo had yet to be invented and it was the precursor to modern shifting. For you, probably not so much. If you would like to debate it, knock yourself out.
__________________
Road 🚴🏾‍♂️ & Mountain 🚵🏾‍♂️







rsbob is offline  
Old 06-02-23, 10:50 AM
  #70  
delbiker1 
Mother Nature's Son
 
delbiker1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Sussex County, Delaware
Posts: 3,111

Bikes: 2014 Orbea Avant MD30, 2004 Airborne Zeppelin TI, 2003 Lemond Poprad, 2001 Lemond Tourmalet, 2014? Soma Smoothie

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 838 Post(s)
Liked 1,414 Times in 801 Posts
No, manually moved up or down to the next click to make the shift,
delbiker1 is offline  
Old 06-02-23, 10:52 AM
  #71  
genejockey 
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 17,657

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10244 Post(s)
Liked 11,599 Times in 5,945 Posts
Originally Posted by smd4
How was it a "game changer" when the game had already changed?
Because Shimano was still an upstart back then, and Campy dominated. Now? There was ONE team in the Giro d'Italia with Campy this year, IIRC.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is online now  
Old 06-02-23, 10:59 AM
  #72  
smd4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,641

Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3431 Post(s)
Liked 2,824 Times in 1,723 Posts
Originally Posted by genejockey
Because Shimano was still an upstart back then, and Campy dominated. Now? There was ONE team in the Giro d'Italia with Campy this year, IIRC.
Yikes! How the mighty have fallen!

Dura Ace was an upstart in 1973. By 1984 Dura Ace was just the writing on the wall for Campy. Campy didn't come out with its poorly-functioning Syncro until 3 years later...
smd4 is offline  
Old 06-02-23, 11:01 AM
  #73  
genejockey 
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 17,657

Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10244 Post(s)
Liked 11,599 Times in 5,945 Posts
Originally Posted by smd4
In my eBay travels, just looking for random Dura Ace stuff I was surprised to see them for sale. For a long time I honestly thought my 7700 shifters were the last generation of DT shifters. Oops!
I really like the Dura Ace stuff from the 80s and 90s. My first "serious" road bike was a Ritchey with 7410 DA that I bought in 1997, right after 7700 came out. I loved how it just worked. I kept the 7410 on the Ritchey till 2019. It's now a mix of 7410 with 7800 STIs and RD - too old and fat for 39x25 as my lowest gear!

Then I got a 1982 Lotus Supreme with 7200 DA, and started looking into the history. DynaDrive pedals, the freehub, the whole AX group, then SIS, then 7 and then 8 speeds, then STIs and dual pivot brakes. So much innovation in just a few years!
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is online now  
Likes For genejockey:
Old 06-02-23, 11:01 AM
  #74  
phughes
Senior Member
 
phughes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,063
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1019 Post(s)
Liked 1,249 Times in 722 Posts
Originally Posted by Xavier65
Friction shifters are fine for selecting between 3-6 gears - like a trombonist hitting the right notes. But, beyond 6 gears, the chain has to be just right, and you'd be forever tweaking the shifter to get the sweet spot after each gear change.

I still have friction shifters on my 3x6 mountain bike, and don't really notice they're not indexed (I know the gears off by heart).

However, indexed shifters are delightful in comparison. Once you've installed them on a bike, there's no going back.
Works just fine with my nine speed cassette.
phughes is offline  
Likes For phughes:
Old 06-02-23, 11:04 AM
  #75  
smd4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,641

Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3431 Post(s)
Liked 2,824 Times in 1,723 Posts
Originally Posted by genejockey
I really like the Dura Ace stuff from the 80s and 90s. My first "serious" road bike was a Ritchey with 7410 DA that I bought in 1997, right after 7700 came out. I loved how it just worked. I kept the 7410 on the Ritchey till 2019. It's now a mix of 7410 with 7800 STIs and RD - too old and fat for 39x25 as my lowest gear!

Then I got a 1982 Lotus Supreme with 7200 DA, and started looking into the history. DynaDrive pedals, the freehub, the whole AX group, then SIS, then 7 and then 8 speeds, then STIs and dual pivot brakes. So much innovation in just a few years!
The 7400 stuff was my first love. As for the earlier DA, I've thought about purchasing a few pieces, just to collect and admire. Their AX stuff was way ahead of its time. Now all anyone can talk about is "aero." Shimano practically invented the concept.
smd4 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.