lauf_rad

Hello good people of Bike Forums!

Let me first preface this post with a notice that this my first actual contribution on Bike Forums after years and years of passively benefitting ("stalking") from the collective knowledge of forum members. Why did I finally decide to join? I guess maybe because I find myself moving in a direction in terms of taste and interests ("retrogrouch") that increasingly only people online seem to share. I see the vibrant community here and on a few other forums and decided that I finally want to be a part of all that, and contribute too! Is there a feed where new Forum members introduce themselves?

Edit: unfortunately, it seems I'm not able to post pictures yet due to the 10 post minimum for new members, so I'll have to post elsewhere on the forums and return here once I have.



Anyway, to the main topic of this post:

Back in 2016, I acquired a frameset off the Brooklyn Craigslist from an older gentleman, who did not exactly know the provenance or origins of manufacture. The frameset has clearly been repainted at some point in its life, as well as likely having brake cable bosses brazed onto the top tube, or at least that's my impression. I've tried to identify the builder or workshop based on the details, but to no avail. BB is just stamped "60". The seat tube/binder lug cluster is what I've focused on the most. However, the seat stay bridge, how the stays are joined to the rear dropouts and head badge pinholes also offer some clues.

Other details are Campy dropouts front and rear, Campy braze-on BB cable guides, obviously full Nervex Pro lugset, chromed at the headtube, and the frameset takes 27.0mm seatposts. I had the rear professionally cold-set to accept 130mm hubs. For the entirety of its life with me, it's worn either Campy Daytona or Chorus 10sp.

It's always been a little too small for me, so I've decided to put it up for sale, especially now that I've acquired an Eisentraut Limited Touring that is more in my size - and about which I plan on starting a build thread! You can gladly DM me if you're interested in more details on the sale (it's on eBay and the NYC C-List right now) - mostly, I'm just curious about who might have built this frameset.

Anyway - for me, at least, all of these details together have confounded my ability to positively identify what the original make of this frameset might be. Perhaps someone here will see the seat stays filed neatly to a point at the binder lug and know exactly what it is, and help me clear up the "mystery" of this frameset.

Thank you, again, and greetings to all!

T-Mar

Link to OP's photo album: https://www.bikeforums.net/g/user/547227

unworthy1

Dunno but here's some pic-assists:
Seems like the seat stay caps and stay ends on the Campy DOs are rather distinctive, but not calling out a name to me. I note that that "pointed" end detail to the stay ends is often a clue to being Swiss or Austrian, but don't think that's conclusive for this specimen.
The 27 seatpost may indicate a heavier gauge seat tube, the forkcrown is similar to that used on some well-known FR bikes (Pugs and Gitanes) but this seems like more Brit than anything else: are all the threads BSC/ISO?

merziac

That keyed binder bolt seat lug is a clue as well but I got nuthin.

76SLT 

Nice looking bike. I'd be proud to own it.

juvela

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no mention of threading has yet been made by the poster

a 27.0 pillar size would tend to rule out a FR, ES or CH origin

somewhat difficult to imagine an Italian builder employing this crown or taper tube joinery detail

"filed to a point" seat stay tops are almost certainly plugs

one possible national origin not as yet mentioned is that of BE

as ever, the thread would benefit surely from a visit by our very own MauriceMoss



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Doug Fattic 

All I'd have is wild guesses. Up in Yorkshire where I learned there were chromers that were used by a number of northern England builders. The 27.0 seat post might be either Columbus SP or Reynolds 19/22 gauge. In other words around 1.0mm at the bottom bracket and .7 mm at the seat post end.

Kilroy1988 

My wild guess would be a Mondia Professional with the idea that the paint on the head tube is original. A bunch of them had Nervex Pro lugs with that faded black paint in lieu of pinstriping.

juvela

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reaming out the seat tube of a Mondia to 27.0mm would turn it into a piece of Queen Anne's lace

also the serial would be on the seat stay cap for a Monida product of this vintage:





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Kilroy1988 

I'm no expert on them, but I'm wondering why a Mondia Special (that's the model I had in mind with Nervex Pro lugs) made with butted Reynolds 531 would have anything much smaller than a 27.0?

droppedandlost 

different OD and different butt thickness (such as metric 1/7/1)

verktyg 

The Swiss used that style of seat stay tops, also fork and stay ends.

My 1965 Tigre. It has a 26.6mm seatpost which indicates a metric seat tube with 0.9mm x 0.6mm wall thickness,




Check out the Swiss Cilo in this link...maybe BINGO?

Cilo Bicycles | Swiss Bicycles | A website about Swiss Bicycles

Most but maybe not all Swiss bikes used metric tubing...

Looking at how the seat tube clamp is squeezed down, it's likely that the frame should have a 27.2mm seatpost.

verktyg

juvela

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Mondia constructed with a metric tubeset

the o.d. of a metric seat tube is 28.0mm rather than the 28.6mm of a BSC or Italian dimension tubeset

frames constructed of metric dimension Reynolds butted tubing typically have a pillar size of either 26.4mm or 26.6mm

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here are some detail images of a Mondia Special model of this era

factory pillar size is 26.4



serial is on seat stay cap



Mondia joinery of taper tubes to frame ends at this time was pointed, this image comes from the same cycle as the previous two



note how the tube ends are stubby/conical in shape

here is the treatment on the subject frame
it is also pointed but the points are more tapered/elongated, could be a variation from the same producer...



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the Mondia suggestion could be possible if for example someone had a 27.0mm pillar they wished to use in the build and reamed out the seat tube to accommodate

lack of serial on seat stay cap could be do to an owner knowing or suspecting that the frame could have been stolen at some point so they filled it in prior to the present respray

if frame could be seen in bare metal one might be able to see where the top tube housing stops and the centrepull brake bridge were removed

the orientation and distance apart of the headplate fastener holes is plausible for a Mondia headplate

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one thing we need to keep in mind with our speculations is that although we are now at one dozen posts in the thread we have yet to be informed as to the frame's tubing diameters and threading


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unworthy1

Not seeing enough in the Cilo example to be convincing: yes the stay ends are quite similar, yes it has Neverx Pro lugs with the "rings" but that one shows a very distinctive chainstay bridge that the OP's does not, also not sure how the brake bridges compare but OP's has a very commonplace style with reinforcing "diamonds", don't see what style Cilo was using back in that early time. I don't think OP's is as old as the Cilo, either, but would be ALSO curious for lauf_rad to tell us the spacing of headbadge rivet holes in addition to the threading and the main tube ODs. We still have too little info for best guessing!

juvela

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by the time the subject frame was constructed Cilo had gone to the BOCAMA Professional lug pattern for their top-of-the-line Sprint X model


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