Drillium Dude 

I let Sacha take a look at this thread. Look at that face:



DD

panzerwagon 

My money is still on pandemic-isolation-induced psychosis. I mean, I finally saw my dear neighbor after months and could only manage a few guttural sounds. Post-pandemic we all need to re-learn how to properly socialize, dress respectably, drink with a straw, etc etc

Hummer

In 1976, long after the Roman centurions left Germania, a Centurion brand name bicycle began to be marketed in Germany. Part of Western States Imports?

There is an interesting discussion of the Centurion brand name outside of the USA in this 2016 thread:

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...ra-equipe.html

Member @Vintage_Cyclist was encouraged to write to the German company and ask about their relationship to Western States Imports. He did so. The German company replied:


Tristan Zerdick, the responder from Centurion Germany, in a paragraph talking about Tano, says that their company and WSI shared the same trading company for the bicycles.
Not manufacturer, but trading company. The responder never says that Tano manufactured bicycles.

This response could be considered verification of what kind of a company H. Tano and Company were: a trading company.
None of the participants in that thread recognized the statement "same trading company".
One of the participants in this thread once says that Tano is a manufacturer and on a second occasion says "Tano builder" and neither saying that the information is unverified.


There is a second correspondence in this thread from the same Tristan Zerdick to an inquiry from member @artclone. Tristan Zerdick says:

" The German and American Centurion bikes were – up to a certain time – ordered from the same manufacturer in Japan".

Unfortunately for us, the name of the manufacturer in Japan is not mentioned.

Thanks to member Vintage_Cyclist and member artclone and for sharing their questions and responses. Also thanks to Tristan Zerdick in Germany.

clubman 

But what does Grant Petersen say?
That oughta extend this unnecessarily longer but he really might know a thing or two about this.

Fahrenheit531 

Darth Lefty 

Drillium Dude The Japanese Navy does not have any of our old Perry frigates. I checked. My employer made a few new batches of SM-1 missile motors for those nations that do, a few years back, but our Sacramento factory is now closed and I couldn't possibly predict if that line will be coming back.

OP's problem in this thread has never been his content, but his attitude. This all may be leading somewhere good, but it's never going to be good enough to support this much umbrage. Amazed he hasn't somehow worked in a reference to the 9th Legion

seedsbelize 

Speaking only for myself, I have read nothing untoward or accusatory from the OP. From the respondents I cannot say the same. A lot of knee-jerking goung on.

panzerwagon 

It just occurred to me such a device would be perfect for tracking my pandemic mileage...

Darth Lefty 

Are serial numbers punk rock? You decide.

clubman 

I think Kurt's post sums it up nicely. Just defending our own here.

cudak888 

Happy Grant Peterson Year.

-Kurt

Hummer

Howie Cohen. I do not know how to make a fair introduction to this man without overstating or understating his contributions to the bicycle industry in the USA and internationally,
starting in the 1960s and into the 1980s or longer.

Here is a link to where Mr Cohen describes some of his history.

https://www.proteanpaper.com/scart_a...?comp=howiebik

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/nort...s#.X-1Q5FhlDmg

Howie Cohen's parents owned West Coast Cycle Supply Company(WCCSC) in California,
a company that distributed bicycles, wheel goods (tricycles & pedal cars) parts,
accessories and sundries to retailers in the USA. Mr. Cohen entered the family business and after his father passed away took charge of some aspects of the business.

Mr. Cohen traveled to Japan in the 1960s to find companies that could supply bicycles suitable for the US consumer. He was, to say the least, successful in this task.

In 1976 Mr. Cohen left WCCSC. He started a new business focused on BMX bicycles and started working as a consultant within the bicycle industry.
Mr. Cohen passed away in July of 2013.

Over the years Mr. Cohen traveled to Japan many times and met many people in the the various sectors of the Japanese bicycle business.

I do not know if he ever wrote a book about his experiences, but he did create a website: https://www.howiebikeman.com.
The website no longer exists but some of Everything Bicycles is being preserved for the time being on another website.

https://www.proteanpaper.com/scart_r...desc&skey=norm

https://www.proteanpaper.com/scart_s...desc&skey=norm


Here are some quotes from Howie Cohen's website:

Category: "Who's Who-Exporters"


H. Tano co. Ltd. Kobe, Japan
H. Tano Co., Ltd. - Kobe, Japan
The H. Tano Co was a major exporter of bicycles, parts and accessories.
Mr. H. Tano`s two sons, Isao & Masahiro were both active in the business.
They were the major supplier for Western States Import (WSI) while Mitch Weiner was alive.
Mr. Mukai was the key man in the Kobe office;
he had a great knowledge of the Japan bicycle industry.
Howie purchased Premium brand Hi-Riser bikes using H. Tano Shokai in the early 1960`s.
These bikes were produced by Sakai Bicycle Co (Mr. Katayama, president).
This is an advertisement for the H. Tano Co that appeared
in the 1952 edition of the Japan Bicycle Guide on page 213. [Item# H.Tano Shokai]


https://www.proteanpaper.com/scart_r...00000000000418


WSI was founded in about 1969 by Mitchell Weiner (Mitch).
The company sold Centurion brand bicycles starting in about 1970,
and in about 1979 developed the brand Diamond Back for BMX & Mountain Bikes.
The majority of the WSI bicycles were produced in Japan at the beginning;
but then when exchange rate fluctuations caused the US Dollar to be weak vs the Japanese Yen,
some production was moved to Taiwan.
The H. Tano Co of Kobe was the exporter that supplied WSI with the Japanese bicycles and parts.
Isao and Masahiro Tano, the sons of the founder of Tano, worked closely with WSI.
Two other Tano employees, Junya Yamakoshi (Cozy) & Mukai-san were deeply involved with the WSI business.
Mike Bobrick and Al Stonehouse were officers of the company in the later years.
Additional pictures & text pending. See the picture gallery.



https://www.proteanpaper.com/scart_r...00000000000410



In both of these pages from his website, Howie Cohen is very clear H. Tano and Company are exports of bicycles, parts and accessories.

Howie Cohen even used H. Tano and Company as an export company for Hi-Riser bike and the bicycles were not manufactured by H. Tano and Company.
(Hi-Riser bikes were popular in the second half of the 1960s and into the 1970s.)


For the American Eagle brand name it appears that Howie Cohen took on the role normally done by a Japanese export company. Howie Cohen first traveled to Japan specifically to find Japanese companies to supply frames and parts for this brand, although the name may not have been determined at that time. He says he traveled to Japan several times a year and sometimes stayed for extended periods. He could therefore manage much of the work that an export company would do. It sounds like Howie Cohen enjoyed meeting and working with people. From his website you can see the people from Japan with whom he developed working relationships.

Other North American companies importing bicycles from Japan prior to 1971 were unlikely to do what Howie Cohen did. It was much simpler to use a Japanese trading company and trust that they had the connections to the bicycle manufacturers necessary to get the bicycle products that they required.


- - - -



"Your a very quiet lot."

Johnny Rotten on stage at the Winterland Ballroom, San Francisco, California 01/14/78

gugie 

The cat knows.

noobinsf 

Have to admit — on some level, being impervious to feedback is kind of impressive somehow.

cb400bill

You're, not your.

pastorbobnlnh 

Even when it comes from a moderator.
Thankfully the responses have made this interesting and fun. If no one had commented I would have abandoned long ago.

Collaboration at its best!

Bianchi84

There is somewhat of an irony (in its colloquially over - used sense) in that Johnny Rotten (reportedly) said: "I'm not here for your amusement. You're here for mine."

Hummer

Let's see what we have so far.

For H. Tano and Company manufactured bicycles:

Lawrence M. Fisher article of the Korn Ferry Institute,
H.Tano and Company advertisements in 1951 and 1952 Japan's Bicycle Guide

For H. Tano and Company an export company:

Japan's Bicycle Guide List of Exporters Volume 2 (1952),
H.Tano and Company advertisements in Japan's Bicycle Guide 1956,
Tristan Zerdick of Centurion of Germany,
Howie Cohen in www.howiebikeman.com, Everything Bicycles,
the serial number record of the Centurion brand name of Western States Imports.



I can tell that some members in the vintage bicycle realm of bikeforms.net are still not convinced that H. Tano and Company were an export company.


Hmmmm, what can I do to convince you?

Ahhh, let's try this tack.

Here is a thread from member @mmcc73 in August of 2019.
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...al-number.html

Raleigh Super Grand Prix serial number N0P1957.


Member T-Mar's reply to member mmcc73:

If I can show who made 1980-82 Raleigh USA bicycles from Japan, would you be convinced about H. Tano and Company?


Let's have a show of hands.


Hmmmm, only a few of you will be convinced.

Well, just for you few I will show this anyway. The rest of you can go to another thread.


"On September 24, 1982, petitions were filed with the United States International Trade Commission and
the U.S. Department of Commerce by counsel on behalf of AMF Wheel Goods Division,
Columbia Manufacturing Co., Huffy Corp., and Murray Ohio Manufacturing Company, individually,
and as members of the Bicycle Manufacturers Association, Inc.
The petitions allege that bicycles from the Republic of Korea (Korea) and Taiwan are being, or are likely
to be , sold in the United States at less than fair market value (LTFV)."

These are the opening lines of the Introduction to Section A: Information obtained in the investigation,
by the United States International Trade Commission in Washington, D.C. 20436.

Wait a minute! What does this have to do with Raleigh USA or H. Tano and Company?
Neither is a petitioner or from Korea or Taiwan.

The USITC wanted to understand a little bit about about bicycle manufacturing in the United states and retail pricing of bicycles before making a determination on the petitions. In order to do this the USITC sent out a questionnaire to lots of different companies in the business of manufacturing bicycles and retailing bicycles.
Two of the companies that responded were Schwinn and TI Raleigh(USA) Inc.

In the commissions findings it was noted that Schwinn and Raleigh(USA) where importing higher end bicycles from Japan. The petitioners to the commission were not concerned about higher end bicycles.

Anyhow, the commission named the Japanese manufacturers with whom Schwinn and Raleigh(USA) had made agreements.

Schwinn had made an agreement in 1972 with the largest bicycle manufacturer in Japan, Bridgestone Cycle.

The Determination and information obtained by the USITC in this matter were published twice.
First, in November 1982 "Bicycles from the Republic of Korea and Taiwan". USITC Publication 1311.
Second, in August 1983 "Bicycles from Taiwan". USITC Publication 1417.

Both versions of the USITC determination are found on Google Docs and are images of
documents from the Library of University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.


In the first version on page A-12, states: "National also makes top-of-the-line "Raleigh" brand."
In the second version on page A-12, states: "Matsush¡ta also makes top-of-the-line, Raleigh brand."
Both versions note the TI Raleigh Industries, Ltd. U.S. subsidiary is no longer in business.

As an aside and an interesting twist: during the time that the commission was preparing its determination,
the right to use the Raleigh brand name in the USA was sold to one of the petitioners: Huffy Corporation.





Well, the 1980-82 Raleigh(USA) bicycles from Japan were made by Matsush¡ta/National. The bicycles with the "N" serial number prefix.

Ergo, the "N" serial number bicycles from Centurion were made by Matsu****a/National, if you follow member T-Mar's reasoning as stated above.
The export company H. Tano and Company did not manufacture the Centurion bicycles with the "N" serial numbers, if you follow member T-Mar's reasoning as stated above.


The best description of H. Tano and Company's relationship with Western States Imports that I can come up with is as follows:
H. Tano and Company was an export company who arranged to get bicycles from one or more Japanese manufacturers,
brand them as Centurion, and delivered bicycles to Western States Imports.
This matches with what Howie Cohen and Tristan Zerdick said about H. Tano and Company.


Here is a link to Google Books for one of the United States International Trade Commission documents, I hope the correct document is displayed.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=Nas...page&q&f=false



- - -


"Ever get the feeling you've been cheated? Good night."

Johnny Rotten on stage at the Winterland Ballroom, San Francisco, California 01/14/78

obrentharris 

An ice rink and arena actually. Hosted such shows as "Ice Follies" and "Disney on Ice."
In the late sixties and early seventies when I was attending Bill Graham's concerts there I only heard it referred to as "Winterland."
Perhaps someone at some point confused it with the Carousel Ballroom or the Avalon Ballroom and stuck the "Ballroom" moniker on it.
The acoustics were awful.

That's my orthodoxy and I'm sticking to it until a better one comes around.
Brent

cudak888 

And now, another episode of TL, DR - for those who wish to understand the valid intellectual points of the OP, but do not wish to kill off most of their brain cells to do so:

1. The Japanese firm of H. Tano & Co. were exporters and not manufacturers. Proven fact.

2. There are USITC documents proving that Japanese-made Raleigh bicycles made between 1980 and 1982, carrying N-prefixed serials (not of the previous Nottingham pattern), were manufactured by Matsush¡ta/National; rather than H. Tano and Company, as previously believed.

3. The OP postulates that Centurion bicycles of this era carrying N-prefixed serials, previously thought to be manufactured by H. Tano & Co., were in fact manufactured by Matsush¡ta/National. This is assumed upon the following two points: /thread again

-Kurt

jonwvara 

This thread is where fun goes to die. I'm out of here--anyone can have my place.

seedsbelize 

Being impervious to feedback is truly liberating.

seedsbelize 

I will happily take your place. This is a fun thread, by my definition.

texaspandj

I'm still here. I'll leave after Hummer says "In Conclusion".

3alarmer 

.
...I once attended services in an Eastern Orthodox Rite church. True story.