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I Said I Would Never EVER Buy An E-Bike...but

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I Said I Would Never EVER Buy An E-Bike...but

Old 07-23-21, 05:05 PM
  #176  
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Originally Posted by KPREN View Post
I share the freeway with cars that will do 200mph and don't have an issue. I have ridden thousands of miles on bike paths and have not encountered idiots going balls out with an e bike.

I was passed by lots of bicycles today on the bike path. My average speed was about 12-13mph in a 20 mile group ride. At the highest setting my bike is theoretically capable of 1000w. My average battery draw watts were probably around 50-60 today. Yesterday I did 75 miles on bike paths on two separate rides. My average on the first ride was probably 12-13mph and the second ride was probably 14-15mph and included some roads. My total average battery output was about 100 watts. Probably about 65 watts motor output.

The point is that although when light my bike will go 28mph and might put out about 1000 watts for a very short period of time, if and only if, I am flat out in the top power setting does not mean I will likely ride my bike at that speed. I am sure that. 28mph on a bike path would feel pretty dangerous. I am more likely to hit the higher power limit climbing a 25% grade at 5 mph when fully loaded. To get 1,000 watts motor output I would need to pedal the bike at 120+rpm so I am not putting much in by the time I need full power. . I have certainly pulled 1,700 watts peak from the battery but probably never reached 1,000 watts motor output.

On average I ride safer on an e bike than I do on a regular bike. I do not get as tired therefore my attention and reaction time is better. So is my balance. I gladly slow way down to pass pedestrians, dogs, kids and any body else because there is really no penalty for getting back up to speed. Same for stop signs. When I am tired, I am reluctant to slow down much or stop at stop signs with the problem of restarting. . If I drive home from biking after a ride then I am safer on the road after e biking as well because I am not tired.

I don't think I am atypical at all. I just don't see the problems you portray to exist any more than I see people doing 120mph+ on the freeway in a car. I personally think e biking is safer. Especially for an old Cogger. .
I thought you might say something along these lines. But the problem is not sensible people like you. If you allow unrestricted e-bikes to ride alongside normal bicycles on bike paths (roads are a different case, where you simply have to accept the dangers of mixing with traffic and we know that doesn't always end well) then sooner or later those bike paths are not really bike paths any more. It would be like allowing motorcycles on bike paths. Would that be okay with you? I expect not. There's also the issue of licensing. Obviously you have to pass a driving test to ride a motorcycle safely. So there has to be a point where an unrestricted e-bike needs similar licensing to ensure a degree of safety.

Maybe your bike paths and lanes are very different, but bike paths over here are specifically there to allow bicycles to travel along without having to worry about motorised vehicles travelling at significantly higher speeds. Restricted e-bikes (should really be called e-bicycles for clarity) are allowed to run alongside normal bicycles without any form license, but only on the basis that they are not significantly faster (motor cuts out at 15.5 mph) and operate exactly like a normal bicycle i.e. you have to pedal as normal to get any assistance. No throttle control allowed. Remove all those restrictions and you have a very different kind of vehicle, quite capable of causing serious issues.

E-bikes are not a problem here in the UK because they are all restricted to the sensible 250W limit, 15.5 mph max assist speed and you are forced to pedal them. They are really just bicycles with a little limited assistance. They don't need a special license and they are not inherently any more or less dangerous than a normal bicycle. The more powerful unrestricted versions can be licensed as a motorbike and ridden on public roads with a driving license (not bike paths) under motor vehicle legislation, but at the moment this is such a niche market over here that I've never even seen one on the roads.

E-bicycles are so subtle in operation that it's often hard to even tell them apart from a normal bike. It's no different to riding next to someone slightly fitter and stronger. That is why the regulations allow them to be treated exactly like normal bicycles. It makes sense to me that way.
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Old 07-23-21, 05:08 PM
  #177  
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Originally Posted by KPREN View Post
those people are with us in every endeavor, not just biking At the moment, the idiots on regular bikes still outnumber the idiots on e bikes. You can legislate courteous law abiders out of existence but you are powerless to legislate against stupidity.
Nobody is legislating law abiders off the road. They are just saying you can't ride a motorcycle down a bicycle path.
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Old 07-23-21, 05:22 PM
  #178  
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
As a representative of the fit-over-fifty group, my opinion about e-bikes on bike paths has nothing to do with ego. A big adventure motorcycle makes over 100hp and goes over 100 mph. Should we let people ride those on the bike path? There has to be a limit. We just disagree on what that limit should be. My personal opinion is no motors on the bike path at all. If you want to ride a motorcycle we have roads for that. If you want to ride off-road motorcycles, we have trails for that too. I couldn't care less about ebikes or motorcycles on the road. I feel the same way getting passed by an ebike as I do a Hayabusa.
Why not? As long as they are restricted and operate as a normal bicycle without any sort of throttle. What's the difference between an average guy riding a restricted e-bike and a very fit guy riding at the same total power on a normal unpowered bicycle? That's really the essence of the EU e-bike regulations. Once you go beyond those regulations, adding hand throttles, removing speed limiters, increasing the power by 4x etc then sure it's a motorbike and should be legislated as one.

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Old 07-23-21, 05:32 PM
  #179  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
I thought you might say something along these lines. But the problem is not sensible people like you. If you allow unrestricted e-bikes to ride alongside normal bicycles on bike paths (roads are a different case, where you simply have to accept the dangers of mixing with traffic and we know that doesn't always end well) then sooner or later those bike paths are not really bike paths any more. It would be like allowing motorcycles on bike paths. Would that be okay with you? I expect not. There's also the issue of licensing. Obviously you have to pass a driving test to ride a motorcycle safely. So there has to be a point where an unrestricted e-bike needs similar licensing to ensure a degree of safety.

Maybe your bike paths and lanes are very different, but bike paths over here are specifically there to allow bicycles to travel along without having to worry about motorised vehicles travelling at significantly higher speeds. Restricted e-bikes (should really be called e-bicycles for clarity) are allowed to run alongside normal bicycles without any form license, but only on the basis that they are not significantly faster (motor cuts out at 15.5 mph) and operate exactly like a normal bicycle i.e. you have to pedal as normal to get any assistance. No throttle control allowed. Remove all those restrictions and you have a very different kind of vehicle, quite capable of causing serious issues.

E-bikes are not a problem here in the UK because they are all restricted to the sensible 250W limit, 15.5 mph max assist speed and you are forced to pedal them. They are really just bicycles with a little limited assistance. They don't need a special license and they are not inherently any more or less dangerous than a normal bicycle. The more powerful unrestricted versions can be licensed as a motorbike and ridden on public roads with a driving license (not bike paths) under motor vehicle legislation, but at the moment this is such a niche market over here that I've never even seen one on the roads.

E-bicycles are so subtle in operation that it's often hard to even tell them apart from a normal bike. It's no different to riding next to someone slightly fitter and stronger. That is why the regulations allow them to be treated exactly like normal bicycles. It makes sense to me that way.
I basically agree with everything you wrote this time. E bikes here are well defined and not unrestricted. Like everything else, this is a big wide open country. There are bike paths here where you might pass another biker or a tree in the same day. Services can be more than 100 miles apart.
Its slower going in the cities as there are lots of cross roads and other traffic.
Typical bike path here
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Old 07-23-21, 05:47 PM
  #180  
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Originally Posted by KPREN View Post
I basically agree with everything you wrote this time. E bikes here are well defined and not unrestricted. Like everything else, this is a big wide open country. There are bike paths here where you might pass another biker or a tree in the same day. Services can be more than 100 miles apart.
Its slower going in the cities as there are lots of cross roads and other traffic.
Fair enough. Those would be analogous to our ex-railway line bike trails, although ours are much less remote and generally quite busy. But most of our bike paths are additional lanes alongside roads or specific urban leisure & commuter bike paths and park trails. Many are also shared paths with pedestrians. Places that suit the specific e-bike regulations we have in place.
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Old 07-23-21, 06:16 PM
  #181  
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Originally Posted by KPREN View Post
Be careful what you wish for. You are proposing to legislate to keep bicycles in the dark ages for practical utility use. In other words, collecting dust in most garages while the car remains king.

Four years ago I made a prediction and was laughed out of a forum. I predicted that e bikes would outsell regular bikes in the LBS two to one within 10 years. I was off by a factor of two. My new prediction is that the EU standard will fall and the EU standard will rise to 750 watts, then to 1,000 to 1,500 watts. The speed limit will rise to 40 kph and stay put. I also predict that the biggest sellers in EU will be front loading box cargo bikes. The SUV's of the biking world.

Why? Because it takes power to move weight and the grid and the economy cannot support a big influx of electric cars. 250 watts will not haul around 400-500lb. That takes a bare minimum of 750 watts even to go the measly 15mph and hills, forget it. Torque sensing? Yeah right just imagine a cargo with two kids and groceries getting to the top of a big hill. The parent is now whipped with two fresh toddlers and groceries to put away. Come on, just so you can protect your exercise machine? No, 5% of the biking will be for the purpose of exercise.

Stop and take a look where the politicians and zealots are taking us with energy.. My prediction is a natural solution/evolution.

My next touring dirt bicycle is apt to be a front loading cargo with a 200 mile range if the western bike zealots don't get to keep things to themselves.
I will make another prediction. You cannot put that many bikes onto the present infrastructure. New and better infrastructure will appear and different rules will pop up to deal with the volume. . .
NO I am not, what I am proposing is to keep E-bikes as an 'assist" for riders that are not as fit as they could be...

Not the way I see it. I read that the pressure sensor will actually reduce power, law coming, the faster you go in the next few years...

Anyways, the reason I am advocating less power is better, is because in a few years when a certain momentum in E-Bike sales is reached, and the 5% to 10% of the E Bike owners have modified their bikes to not even conform to the lax rules here in N America the hammer will fall... and... Even 250 Watt E-Assist bicycle will become mopeds, as the laws WILL be changed. Just like they were changed for mopeds 50 years or so ago... You will then need a license and insurance and not be allowed where bicycle are allowed now... JMO as I see things unfolding... NOT, something I am looking forwards to...

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Old 07-23-21, 06:32 PM
  #182  
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I think we have to distinguish here between e-bicycles and e-motorbikes. Regulations for e-bicycles are unlikely to become less restrictive because they are specifically designed to make them equivalent and compatible with ordinary bicycles so you can use them in exactly the same manner in all the same places. If anything they will get more restrictive after a few accidents and lawsuits. Regulations for e-motorbikes are covered by normal motorbike regulations as they should be. What causes confusion is labelling both as e-bikes when they are very different things.
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Old 07-23-21, 06:55 PM
  #183  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
I think we have to distinguish here between e-bicycles and e-motorbikes. Regulations for e-bicycles are unlikely to become less restrictive because they are specifically designed to make them equivalent and compatible with ordinary bicycles so you can use them in exactly the same manner in all the same places. If anything they will get more restrictive after a few accidents and lawsuits. Regulations for e-motorbikes are covered by normal motorbike regulations as they should be. What causes confusion is labelling both as e-bikes when they are very different things.
Exactly; BUT,, because of the amount of power, 750 Watts+ and people who override/modify the restrictions the manufacturer's set, these "legally" E-Bikes become E-Motorbikes, some manufacturer's even allow, for owner's changing the settings "for off road purposes"... You CAN, actually ride an illegal E-Bike at the press of a few buttons, if you are that 5% to 10% of the riding population. and... when/if you get stopped you press a few buttons an bingo, you are legal!!!
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Old 07-23-21, 06:56 PM
  #184  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
Why not?
I'm an all-or-nothing kind of person. A bit of a character flaw.
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Old 07-23-21, 06:57 PM
  #185  
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
And yet by common sense and general usage, that's an accurate description of all ebikes, or at least the ones with motors. Not that there's anything wrong with that....
Not if it fits into the legal definition of an E-Bike...
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Old 07-23-21, 07:10 PM
  #186  
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
Exactly; BUT,, because of the amount of power, 750 Watts+ and people who override/modify the restrictions the manufacturer's set, these "legally" E-Bikes become E-Motorbikes, some manufacturer's even allow, for owner's changing the settings "for off road purposes"... You CAN, actually ride an illegal E-Bike at the press of a few buttons, if you are that 5% to 10% of the riding population. and... when/if you get stopped you press a few buttons an bingo, you are legal!!!
I agree this is a real problem. I think we are starting to see this happening in the UK, although I haven't personally looked into the hacking options available. I know people often remove the 15 mph speed limiter for the power assist. Obviously I don't do that for our kids bikes to keep them safe. They go faster than 15 mph downhill, but only under their own power and gravity assist! I have had people ask me if e-bikes are more dangerous for kids and I always say no because it's really only when climbing hills that they go faster than normal and they can only hit 15 mph max (actually one is set to 12 mph as a kid's specific e-bike). On downhills they go at the same speed they would on a normal bike. On the flat too not much difference except they can maintain their speed more consistently.
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Old 07-23-21, 07:42 PM
  #187  
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The traffic on this particular stretch of bike path is mostly buggy and utility e bike. The Amish are about 60% business now on e bikes. The jet age for them. A horse is about 5mph and a pain. An e bike is 20 mph for them and no feeding or resting. The speed limit on this stretch of bike path is 20 mph. 32kph. This bike path has a few gaps in it but its pretty continuous for 322 miles 515km. This bike path is up to 16 feet' wide and as little as 6 feet wide. There are small towns every 5-10 miles with populations from 200 to 7,000 people. Three of the towns are big, 1 million..

You might be getting the picture now as to why its not just one size fits all in the USA. Riding a bike path in Boston, USA is not the same as riding the Cowboy trail in Nebraska. USA.
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Old 07-23-21, 07:49 PM
  #188  
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
I'm an all-or-nothing kind of person. A bit of a character flaw.
That explains it. I see everything in various shades of grey.
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Old 07-24-21, 03:55 AM
  #189  
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Originally Posted by KPREN View Post
The traffic on this particular stretch of bike path is mostly buggy and utility e bike. The Amish are about 60% business now on e bikes. The jet age for them. A horse is about 5mph and a pain. An e bike is 20 mph for them and no feeding or resting. The speed limit on this stretch of bike path is 20 mph. 32kph. This bike path has a few gaps in it but its pretty continuous for 322 miles 515km. This bike path is up to 16 feet' wide and as little as 6 feet wide. There are small towns every 5-10 miles with populations from 200 to 7,000 people. Three of the towns are big, 1 million..

You might be getting the picture now as to why its not just one size fits all in the USA. Riding a bike path in Boston, USA is not the same as riding the Cowboy trail in Nebraska. USA.
That looks pretty cool. It’s funny when I saw the sign with the horse and buggy, the first thing I thought of was the Amish! Looks perfect for an e-cargo bike and I would feel okay riding a normal bike in that mix, presuming traffic is light.
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Old 07-24-21, 04:06 AM
  #190  
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
I'm an all-or-nothing kind of person. A bit of a character flaw.
So I see. While I don’t personally ride an e-bike (at least not yet) I don’t object to the “bicycle” type allowed on our bike paths. The problem with an all-or-nothing attitude is that sooner or later you have to live with nothing yourself. I would rather still have something, in this case an e-bike. Would you stop walking if you had to use a cane?
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Old 07-24-21, 08:04 AM
  #191  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
I have enough experience of batteries to know that a 1500W motor needs a much heavier battery than a 250W motor to make it practical. Not just for range, a small battery would also struggle to supply enough load for the higher power output.
Most people are going to want the larger battery, even with the less capable motor.

Smaller batteries can easily support 1500 watts. Luna used to carry a wolf pup battery, under 2 kilo, 200 watt-hr, but 35 amp current limit. The only limit with that battery supporting a bigger motor is range. One guy says he loved that battery because it gave him two loops of his mountain bike trail per charge.

But none of this changes the fact less capable motors don't have a weight advantage, and ridden at an equivalent power level bigger motors yield the same range on a given battery as less capable ones.

With the possible exception of legalities from a rider's perspective there is no real advantage to the less capable motor that I can see.

While you seem fixated on what defines a bicycle, my conundrum is I feel the only real way to save weight on an ebike is to limit battery capacity. That means limiting use of the motor to achieve any sort of range. At some point why even have an ebike?

One other thing to consider with battery size is life expectancy. All else being equal smaller batteries need to be charged more frequently and have less reserve capacity as they age. Thus they will need to be replaced more frequently.
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Old 07-24-21, 08:13 AM
  #192  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
...The problem with an all-or-nothing attitude is that sooner or later you have to live with nothing yourself...
Nothing is no big deal. I can live with nothing. The real problem is the all. If I had an ebike it would have a big motor and a throttle.
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Old 07-24-21, 08:42 AM
  #193  
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All things being equal aka no inclining grade, I believe it is fun to catch them.

https://vimeo.com/578840723



cheers

HJ

PS still fiddling with the Akaso Brave 4

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Old 07-24-21, 08:45 AM
  #194  
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Originally Posted by Pop N Wood View Post
Most people are going to want the larger battery, even with the less capable motor.

Smaller batteries can easily support 1500 watts. Luna used to carry a wolf pup battery, under 2 kilo, 200 watt-hr, but 35 amp current limit. The only limit with that battery supporting a bigger motor is range. One guy says he loved that battery because it gave him two loops of his mountain bike trail per charge.

But none of this changes the fact less capable motors don't have a weight advantage, and ridden at an equivalent power level bigger motors yield the same range on a given battery as less capable ones.

With the possible exception of legalities from a rider's perspective there is no real advantage to the less capable motor that I can see.

While you seem fixated on what defines a bicycle, my conundrum is I feel the only real way to save weight on an ebike is to limit battery capacity. That means limiting use of the motor to achieve any sort of range. At some point why even have an ebike?

One other thing to consider with battery size is life expectancy. All else being equal smaller batteries need to be charged more frequently and have less reserve capacity as they age. Thus they will need to be replaced more frequently.
How do you feel about the new wave of ultra-light e-road bikes? They are not all about power, they are about providing a very subtle and natural feeling power assistance level for those who might want or need it. They are getting quite popular in alpine areas for older guys and those who simply want to extend their rides in the summer heat without exhausting themselves. These people don't want to be carrying a heavy battery and simply don't need a 1000W motor. Look at Bafang's eRoad drive systems for example. 2kg total weight and pretty much invisible on the bike. Only 200-250W max output, but that's all most people buying this type of bike need.

What defines a bicycle? Dictionary definition: "a vehicle consisting of two wheels held in a frame one behind the other, propelled by pedals and steered with handlebars attached to the front wheel."
At some point the key "propelled by pedals" part falls by the wayside with more powerful e-bikes, especially if they have a hand throttle. I have nothing against these powerful e-bikes, but lets not pretend they are bicycles just because they have pedals.

e-bikes come in many forms for completely different uses and riders. Some people are going to want a mostly power driven system and some are going to want a mostly human powered bike. The more power and weight you add with batteries, the less like a bicycle it feels to ride.

You are quite right, there is a point on the lower power side where you might decide an e-bike is just pointless. Well that point appears to be somewhere under 200W for an adult bike used for cycling (not cargo carrying). Considering an average rider would struggle to average 150W on a ride, 200W still provides a decent level of maximum boost.
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Old 07-24-21, 08:49 AM
  #195  
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
Nothing is no big deal. I can live with nothing. The real problem is the all. If I had an ebike it would have a big motor and a throttle.

Easy to say while you are not living with nothing.
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Old 07-24-21, 08:57 AM
  #196  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
Easy to say while you are not living with nothing.
that's not how all or nothing works. I personally will never have a use for a 250 watt ebike. Either no motor or a big motor.
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Old 07-24-21, 09:02 AM
  #197  
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Originally Posted by Pop N Wood View Post
Most people are going to want the larger battery, even with the less capable motor.

Smaller batteries can easily support 1500 watts. Luna used to carry a wolf pup battery, under 2 kilo, 200 watt-hr, but 35 amp current limit. The only limit with that battery supporting a bigger motor is range. One guy says he loved that battery because it gave him two loops of his mountain bike trail per charge.

But none of this changes the fact less capable motors don't have a weight advantage, and ridden at an equivalent power level bigger motors yield the same range on a given battery as less capable ones.

With the possible exception of legalities from a rider's perspective there is no real advantage to the less capable motor that I can see.

While you seem fixated on what defines a bicycle, my conundrum is I feel the only real way to save weight on an ebike is to limit battery capacity. That means limiting use of the motor to achieve any sort of range. At some point why even have an ebike?

One other thing to consider with battery size is life expectancy. All else being equal smaller batteries need to be charged more frequently and have less reserve capacity as they age. Thus they will need to be replaced more frequently.
Because, I like riding with the wind at my back all the time feeling... and going up hills that feel 1/2 as steep... and going 25Km/Hr instead of 20Km/Hr... Yes to make my battery last longer I have to pedal harder or I even ride with the motor turned off sometimes, But on a normal ride I get 110 Km of distance per charge of the battery ,and I even pedal going down hills to re-gen some of the power I will use on the next hill, unless I ride it like a moped, then I get 30 Km per charge.
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Old 07-24-21, 09:08 AM
  #198  
PeteHski
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
that's not how all or nothing works. I personally will never have a use for a 250 watt ebike. Either no motor or a big motor.
Bernard Hinault probably would have said the same thing a few years ago. But anyway your preference doesn’t mean other people should not be allowed to ride low powered e-bikes on bike paths as you were suggesting.
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Old 07-24-21, 09:12 AM
  #199  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
Bernard Hinault probably would have said the same thing a few years ago. But anyway your preference doesn’t mean other people should not be allowed to ride low powered e-bikes on bike paths as you were suggesting.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I'd be willing to change mine if someone paid me to promote their product like Hinault. Most of my opinions about how things should be are very different from how things actually are, so I'm pretty used to it.
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Old 07-24-21, 09:25 AM
  #200  
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I'd be willing to change mine if someone paid me to promote their product like Hinault. Most of my opinions about how things should be are very different from how things actually are, so I'm pretty used to it.
Well I actually agree with a lot of the things you have said. It’s just the more purist “e-bicycle” end of the vast e-bike spectrum where we greatly differ. Lumping those in with high-powered, throttle operated e-bikes doesn’t make any sense to me.
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