noobinsf 

Okay, back on topic -- I'm pretty sure late-70's or early-80's Miki-built items like the Centurion Professional used this tubing, but I can't really back that up. I remember a thread where an 019 bike was identified as a Miki-built Sannow.

Hondo6

No worries. Great minds think alike and all that. And since only part of the URL shows in a link, I had to follow yours to make sure that it was the same one. (smile)

Hondo6

I debated posting what follows, but decided that what the hell – I’d done the “homework”, so I’d post the results. Others might find it useful even if you don’t.

I added emphasis in your comment quoted above. Those questions made me curious, so I researched them to be sure what I thought was the case was correct.

I'm now going to answer your questions. I didn’t have to poke around that much to verify the specifics below; all of the info is readily available and comes up early in appropriate Internet searches. (The discussion that follows excludes MTBs, but the situation there isn’t much different – though the specifics obviously will vary.)

Short version: The answer to both questions is no. Ishiwata-tubed road bike frames were NOT all sold originally equipped with "brifters" or with 9- or 10-speed drivetrains. That includes the Bridgestone RB-1. In fact, it’s a virtual certainty that most RB-1’s were sold equipped with downtube or bar-end shifters.

Let’s look at the 9- or 10-speed rear gearing question first.

As the article I and another commenter linked clearly indicates, Ishiwata appears to have begun producing bike frame tubing in the 1970s and gone out of business in 1993. Accordingly, virtually any bike frame built from Ishiwata tubing was almost certainly built prior to the end of 1994 or 1995. Since 9-speed road rear gearing appears to have been first introduced in 1996 (Shimano Dura Ace) and 10-speed road rear gearing appears to have been first released in 2000 (Campagnolo), I seriously doubt that more than a tiny number Ishiwata-tubed bikes were ever sold originally equipped with 9- or 10-speed rear gearing. Any that were would almost certainly have been “one-off” custom frames fabricated from NOS Ishiwata tubing well after the company had gone out of business, or assembled using older NOS frames. The number could well be “zero”.

What an owner might have done or could do during a later drivetrain upgrade is not relevant to the discussion in this forum thread. The topic being discussed here is frame and tubeset, not drivetrain.

Now, let’s take a look at the question about combined brake-shift levers – commonly referred to as “brifters”.

In his article “Sunset for Suntour”, Frank Berto provides a chart indicating when “brifters” were introduced and by whom. Here’s a link to an on-line version of this article (one of many available online):

Sunset for SunTour

The link above is not "https", so if the forum software automatically tries to make a secure connection and you get an error, just replace the "https" in the URL that appears on redirection with "http" to get the correct page.

Per Berto, “brifters” were not introduced until 1990 (Shimano), 1992 (Campagnolo), and 1994 (Sachs-Huret); Suntour never produced one. (The initial “brifter” by Shimano was 8-speed Dura-Ace, if I recall correctly.) But “brifters” didn’t immediately “take over” the market; that took some time. Downtube-shifter-equipped new bikes continued to be available well into the 1990s.

Since Ishiwata went belly-up in 1993, as a practical matter that means there’s about a 4 year (+/-) window during which when an Ishiwata-tubed frame could have paired by a bike manufacturer and sold new equipped with “brifters”. It also means that any Ishiwata-tubed road bike sold prior to 1990 would perforce have been equipped with some type of downtube-, bar-end, or stem-mounted shifter. “Brifters” simply didn’t exist prior to 1990.

For a specific example, let’s look at the Bridgestone RB-1.

The late Sheldon Brown's website has Bridgestone USA catalogs available for viewing from 1982 and from 1985-1994 inclusive. You can view them here:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bridgestone/index.html

The RB-1 appears in those Bridgestone catalogs starting in 1988 and continuing through 1994. Since Bridgestone USA folded in 1994, 1994 was the last year it was produced. (Afterwards Grant Peterson – former head of Bridgestone USA - founded Rivendell Bicycles.)

The RB-1 data in the Bridgestone 1988 catalog identifies it as having a CroMo frame, but doesn’t list the tubeset manufacturer; whether it used Ishiwata tubing is thus unclear. However, per that catalog it was supplied that year with a 6-speed Shimano 105 freewheel and downtube shifters. Prior to 1990, so no “brifters”.

The frame tubeset manufacturer used for the RB-1 in 1989 and 1990 is identified in the Bridgestone catalogs for those years. Both years used Ishiwata tubing for the frame and fork. The specifics for the tubeset aren't provided for 1989, but the 1990 catalog specifies an Ishiwata 022 main frame and 019 fork for the 1990 model.

Both 1989 and 1990 RB-1s used a Suntour Accushift drivetrain, including RD. They therefore almost certainly used Suntour Accushift shifters. The specifications section of both catalogs indicates that both years used a 7-speed rear sprocket cluster. As I noted previously, according to Frank Berto Suntour never made a "brifter" - so no “brifters” here, either.

Similarly, the Bridgestone RB-1 catalog info for 1991 specifies an Ishiwata 022/019 frame/fork with 7-speed rear gearing as standard - though for 1991 it was a Shimano HG drivetrain vice Suntour. The shifter isn’t explicitly identified, but photos from the catalog show it to have been a downtube shifter – probably Ultegra level, since the RD was Ultegra. Nearly the same is true for 1992: per the Bridgestone catalog for that year, the RB-1 was specified as having used an Ishiwata frame (024/022/19) and fork (019), an Ultegra rear FD, and a 7-speed rear cassette; however, the 1992 catalog says that Shimano bar-end shifters were used vice downtube shifters. No “brifters” here, either.

The first time the RB-1 appears to have been offered by Bridgestone with multiple rear gearing options seems to have been in 1993. Per the 1993 Bridgestone catalog the RB-1 was available with either 7 or 8 speed Shimano Ultegra Hyperglide RD and cassette. The frame and fork were still Ishiwata 024/022/019 and 019, respectively. For the first time – in its sixth and penultimate year of production - the RB-1 was also available with “brifters”. However, that was for the 8-speed configuration only. The 7-speed model used Shimano bar-end shifters.

The 1994 Bridgestone catalog indicates that the final RB-1 model used Tange tubing for the frame, a CroMo fork (tubing source not specified for fork), and was available only in an 8-speed configuration using Shimano 105 cassette, RD, and “brifters”. However, this year is irrelevant to the discussion at hand since it's not an Ishiwata frame – which is the topic of discussion in this thread.

FWIW: Shimano did produce 7-speed road "brifters" during the 1990s. However, that didn’t happen until 1995 with the RSX groupset; before then, all Shimano road “brifters” appear to have had 8 speeds. (In fact, prior to the recent Tourney 7-speed ST-A070 and ST-A073 STIs, these appear to be the only 7-speed road “brifters” Shimano had ever made – which is why they’re outrageously expensive when they are listed on eBay.) By 1995, the RB-1 was out of production.

Bottom line: while some frames built using Ishiwata tubing were sold originally equipped with "brifters", above are multiple examples that prove definitively that all such frames were not. Further, since 9- and 10-speed road rear gearing postdates Ishiwata’s 1993 bankruptcy, precious few if any Ishiwata-framed bikes were ever sold new with 9- or 10-speed rear gearing – and those few would very likely have been “one-off” custom frames using NOS tubing made well after Ishiwata had gone out of business, or assembled from older Ishiwata-tubed NOS frames. It is manifestly incorrect to suggest or assume that all Ishiwata frames had "brifters" or 9- or 10-speed drivetrains. The examples I list above for the RB-1 alone definitively prove that.

Since Ishiwata appears to have started making bike tubesets in the 1970s, I'm also reasonably certain that there are many other, earlier examples of Ishiwata frames configured similarly (e.g., 8 or less speed rear drivetrains with downtube or bar-end shifters) that predate the ones I list above. But I don’t need more examples to prove my points above, so I’m done looking.

The Golden Boy 

Son, you need to put that ***** away; it's going to get you in trouble.

I don't know why you picked this hill, I don't know why you picked me, I don't know why you feel the need to be insulting towards me, I don't know why you just didn't drop it- but here you are.

This has nothing to do with you, you weren't an active member here when this started.

If you really need this explained- C&V exists to host a nebulous Stewart-ish "I know it when I see it" expanse of bicycle territory. Where a brand new "classically" inspired Rivendell or Bianchi Eroica or a custom steel frame can be posted and discussed along with a bone shaker, or a penny farthing... or a new production penny farthing... hence the "classic" and "vintage." One person's "suggestion" (or complaint that his special pretty bicycle was too special to be associated with the rest of the riff raff) resulted in an ill-advised and heavy handed action which not only created a new forum that no one wanted, but moved viable threads out of C&V into the new forum that no one wanted and no one views.

And that goes directly to the topic at hand- in your words:
To begin with, you, non-contributing n00b user, do not decide what is or is not relevant for people to discuss. The 14 year long running, active thread entitled "Retro roadies- old frames with STI's or Ergos" was removed from C&V and moved to that place. As that thread is, by premise, old frames with upgraded drivetrains- and the reason it was moved is because of the person who started this thread.

You stumbled into an inside joke. A salty inside joke you don't understand, but an inside joke nonetheless. (hint: the thread wasn't really reported)

Now:
I was going to let this sit, but since you can't let **** go, the irony is too delicious.

You need to think before you wordsmith some more and realize you're not as smart as you think you are.

My post had nothing to do with you and referenced things you do not understand. Watch your lane, don't take insulting swipes at people. Drop it.


("*****" is censored- that's funny)

cb400bill

Let's stop with the back and forth sniping.

Move it to PM's if you must continue.

Hondo6

Noted. I've had my say concerning the topic at hand (Ishiwata tubing frames) and I'm done with the subject. I see no need for further discussion via PM.

Hondo6

Yeah, you got me there. What you quoted by me in your last comment above is a prime example of one reason I often later edit - "wordsmith", if you like - my comments in any public forum that allows it. I sometimes miss that variety of typo (inadvertently omitted or deleted letter resulting in a correctly-spelled but incorrect word) the first time around and only catch it later.

Hat tip to ya. I admit I goofed there, and you caught it. When I'm wrong, I admit it.

noobinsf 

Wildwood , add the Echelon Spectra to your list. I saw a pic when I was browsing for something else and now can't find it, but the model name and "019" frame and fork stickers were visible.

EDIT: This is not what I saw earlier, but it's an even better reference: https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...-cherubim.html

NDL

I own one of the 10 Apollo VI bikes in the country from 1984, featuring Ishiwata 019 tubing. The frame is exceptionally nice, surpassing the quality of some high-end Italian bike frames I've had over the years.

BertoBerg 

I have one of these. It is by far my nicest frame!

Erzulis Boat 

This is handmade by Toyo (Japan) from Ishiwata 022. It has a more nuanced ride from a virtually identical (geometry-wise) frame from Reynolds butted cr-mo.
New production, so not vintage, but "classic" in a way!

Pogliaghi

My Echelon Spectra is Ishiwata .019. The frame was built for Echelon by Cherubim.

The Golden Boy 

Hondo6
I owe you a huge apology. I'm really sorry for taking out my frustrations on you and not clearly explaining my posts had nothing to do with you.

Sincerely.

unworthy1

Trek used Ishiwata tubing on several frames, might have been mostly 022 but possibly 019 as well. JohnDThompson would be the expert who knows.

IIRC there were also some of the Ross Signature series (perhaps Kellogg frames too) that were built of some Ishiwata but again not sure which number.
EDIT: found this much anyway: "...the Paragon-- and the Grand Tour XVs were all Ishiwata 024 framed bikes" and saw that some of the "lower-end models" used Ishiwata EX tubing

Word is that the contemporary "boutique" brand of Japanese-made steel alloy tubing, Kaisei, is the "direct continuation" of the Ishiwata family tree.

gugie 

The CR list is available for those that want to police postings about brifters.