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Saddle Question (hard vs. soft)

Old 06-01-21, 08:59 AM
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Noonievut
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Saddle Question (hard vs. soft)

I know saddles are very personal and YMMV. However, I had what I consider to be a more general question...we'll see ;-)

I've been riding for over 15 years, road and gravel, and average 4-5 rides a week, 1-3 hours per ride. I've had numerous saddles before, and currently have Selle SMP. I had a professional bike fitting last year, using this saddle, and I'm generally happy. I don't have any numbness or sore bits below. Although on longer rides (4hrs or so), I often get what I would describe as sore sit bones. The skin is fine, no redness or chafing marks. I use good bib shorts and chamois cream. I'm wondering if a firmer saddle (leather), would be a mircale cure for me for those longer rides. I don't think so, but I'm curious as to whether firmer (hard) saddles that don't have padding, like Brooks (which I've used) and Selle Anatomica, might be the ticket.

Last edited by Noonievut; 06-01-21 at 12:24 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 06-01-21, 09:14 AM
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headwind15
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I have been a cyclist since the mid 70's, and the time the I ended up with sore sit bones was the time that I was tandeming and spent way too much time in the seat, and not enough off of it. A different seat honestly would have not made any difference. It was simpily operator error. In other words get off your butt. I used to live in Tucson, and used to ride Mt Lemon all of the time. For that climb I learned to count my pedal revolutions, and at regular intervals, I spend time out of the saddle.
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Old 06-01-21, 11:22 AM
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phughes
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Originally Posted by Noonievut
I know saaddles are very personal and YMMV. However, I had what I consider to be a more general question...we'll see ;-)

I've been riding for over 15 years, road and gravel, and average 4-5 rides a week, 1-3 hours per ride. I've had numerous saddles before, and currently have Selle SMP. I had a professional bike fitting last year, using this saddle, and I'm generally happy. I don't have any numbness or sore bits below. Although on longer rides (4hrs or so), I often get what I would describe as sore sit bones. The skin is fine, no redness or chafing marks. I use good bib shorts and chamois cream. I'm wondering if a firmer saddle (leather), would be a mircale cure for me for those longer rides. I don't think so, but I'm curious as to whether firmer (hard) saddles that don't have padding, like Brooks (which I've used) and Selle Anatomica, might be the ticket.
IN reality, once broke in, the leather saddle would actually be less firm than the Selle SMP. THe SMP has a much harder base, which will not give, so once the cover/cushion is compressed, it is hard. The leather saddle will flex. Whether or not a leather saddle will work for you personally is something you would have to investigate.
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Old 06-01-21, 12:08 PM
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My last multi-month tour I used the Selle Italia, leather over firm padding. I wore that out, now I'm using a Selle Anatomica. I haven't ridden multiple months on it yet, but won't hesitate to do so. It's pretty nice so far. It's colder in winter, if that's a concern, but cooler is generally a good idea. I use lined shorts, not padded. I've never been a fan of padded shorts or saddles. I get more skin issues with soft padding.
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Old 06-01-21, 12:32 PM
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Noonievut
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Originally Posted by phughes
IN reality, once broke in, the leather saddle would actually be less firm than the Selle SMP. THe SMP has a much harder base, which will not give, so once the cover/cushion is compressed, it is hard. The leather saddle will flex. Whether or not a leather saddle will work for you personally is something you would have to investigate.
I understand what you're saying; however, and maybe I should re-phrase my question, what about what's happening in the rump when I compress the cover/cushion and get to the firmer part of the Selle SMP saddle, could that be the issue? When I've used Brooks, I recall a feeling of 'not sinking' into the saddle, just resting on top of it.

Thing I like about the Selle SMP is the size of the channel/cut-out and how it seems to be helping me avoid any issues down below (I had some previously, maybe not from the type of saddle but fact that I hadn't stretched certain pelvic floor muscles...ever). Whereas the B17's I have, when positioned well for my sit bones, had the nose sticking upwards and without a cut out may have been an issue for me. I won't go back to that saddle, but I'm curious about leather saddles that do not have padding, have a cut out and where the centre of the saddle through to the nose sit lower, but without encouraging a slide forward (the Selle SMP checks all of those boxes, minus the soft padding...which isn't actually that much padding).
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Old 06-01-21, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Noonievut
I understand what you're saying; however, and maybe I should re-phrase my question, what about what's happening in the rump when I compress the cover/cushion and get to the firmer part of the Selle SMP saddle, could that be the issue? When I've used Brooks, I recall a feeling of 'not sinking' into the saddle, just resting on top of it.

Thing I like about the Selle SMP is the size of the channel/cut-out and how it seems to be helping me avoid any issues down below (I had some previously, maybe not from the type of saddle but fact that I hadn't stretched certain pelvic floor muscles...ever). Whereas the B17's I have, when positioned well for my sit bones, had the nose sticking upwards and without a cut out may have been an issue for me. I won't go back to that saddle, but I'm curious about leather saddles that do not have padding, have a cut out and where the centre of the saddle through to the nose sit lower, but without encouraging a slide forward (the Selle SMP checks all of those boxes, minus the soft padding...which isn't actually that much padding).
That is how I understood what is happening to you. There is no flex to the base of your existing saddle, or at least, very little. Once the padding is compressed, it is hard. The leather saddle will give, so for me, they are more comfortable.

As for pain, I assume you are referring to perineum pain. That is usually a fit issue. I had the issue badly, until I followed the advice of Steve Hogg, and BikefitJames, and lowered my seat. Once I got the seat setback correct for me, and the saddle height correct, all pain went away. I also do not have to run the nose of the saddle high. If the position is correct, height and setback, you won't be sliding forward.
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Old 06-01-21, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Noonievut
... I'm wondering if a firmer saddle (leather), would be a mircale cure for me for those longer rides. I don't think so, but I'm curious as to whether firmer (hard) saddles that don't have padding, like Brooks (which I've used) and Selle Anatomica, might be the ticket.
I do not really understand, you say you have used a Brooks, but you are wondering if you should try leather. Was the Brooks a leather one or not? Or, was it so long ago you do not recall?

I only use leather saddles, started using leather half a century ago. And for several decades have only used Brooks, mostly Conquests, a Pro on my road bike, and on my indoor trainer bike have a B17. Exception: my errand bike is not leather and am never on that bike longer than a half hour.

Leather will conform over time to your butt shape. My sitbones have left depressions in the leather. That might be what you are looking for.

I tried a C17, it was like a medieval torture device after 20 miles, sit bones were very painful because the saddle did not give well enough. That said, I know several randonneurs that ride the Brooks Cambium saddles and they like them. But I need the leather that will allow depressions to form below sit bones. The C17 is now on my errand bike, short rides are not too painful.

Keep in mind that there are different Brooks models and shapes and widths. If you have a saddle with the shape and width you like, take that saddle to the store to compare to other saddles you look at.

Leather has other concerns, like do not ride it when wet, carry a saddle cover. Needs occasional leather treatment. I suspect that you will not want to put any leather treatment on it initially, that way it can conform to your shape faster, once you apply treatment it does not change shape much after that.
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Old 06-01-21, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
I do not really understand, you say you have used a Brooks, but you are wondering if you should try leather. Was the Brooks a leather one or not? Or, was it so long ago you do not recall?
Hi - the Brooks was leather, and that was 10 years ago (so I really can't recall).
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Old 06-01-21, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Noonievut
Hi - the Brooks was leather, and that was 10 years ago (so I really can't recall).
If it was bad, you would remember it. So, it was either average or above average, that is easier to forget.
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Old 06-01-21, 02:56 PM
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Which SMP saddle do you use? They make seats with different levels of padding.

The SMP approach actually aims to have the pubic nerve and artery lie where the groove is and the soft bits (male or female) hang out over the nose. That prevents pressure on the nerve, artery, and soft bits and thereby prevents numbness and other pain. (To confirm this, check the patent application, which contains an illustration of exactly this point.)

I don't understand why Brooks-type leather saddles work. When they're new, the rider sits on the leather. The bones keep the soft tissue above the seat, so there's little to no pressure. But as butt and saddle break in, the rider's bones and weight create depressions in the leather, so there's the potential for pressure to hit the soft tissues. And yet the Brooks-type seats clearly work well for a lot of people.

A Brooks Imperial (with a cutout), which was invented over 100 years ago, was the best saddle I tried before the SMP, but it was not good. Even a Selle SMP TRK, which has lots of padding, is much better for me. I tried a harder SMP, but it was too long for me, so I went back to the TRK.

With bike seats, I suspect current theory just doesn't match reality. We need better theories. Until we develop them, I think each of us needs to keep trying until we find what works for us.
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Old 06-01-21, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by philbob57
Which SMP saddle do you use? They make seats with different levels of padding.

The SMP approach actually aims to have the pubic nerve and artery lie where the groove is and the soft bits (male or female) hang out over the nose. That prevents presure on the nerve, artery, and soft bits and thereby prevents numbness and other pain. (To confirm this, check the patent application, which contans an illustration of exactly this point.)

I don't understand why Brooks-type leather saddles work. When they're new, the rider sits on the leather. The bones keep the soft tissue above the seat, so there's little to no pressure. But as butt and saddle break in, the rider's bones and weight create depressions in the leather, so there's the potential for pressure to hit the soft tissues. And yet the Brooks-type seats clearly work well for a lot of people.

A Brooks Imperial (with a cutout), which was invented over 100 years ago, was the best saddle I tried, but it was not good. Even a Selle SMP TRK, which has lots of padding, is much better for me. I tried a harder SMP, but it was too long for me, so I wen back to the TRK.

With bike seats, I suspect current theory just doesn't match reality. We need better theories. Until we develop them, I think each of us needs to keep trying until we find what works for us.
The SMP Well.

I have them on both bikes and I really shouldn’t complain. Been using them for 1.5 years and they work well for me...I think my recent issue (sore sit bones) was simply down to riding a little longer than normal, probably not standing enough (happens on rail trails), and the warmer weather (I prefer cooler temps for riding). Most importantly, the SMP is working in every other way...so I’m done pondering and will get back to riding
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Old 06-02-21, 03:02 AM
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Well that was a quick ponder.

But for the others considering the same thing, sit bone pain in relation to padding usually occurs due to two reasons. If you have too little padding, the sit bone will press through it against the hard shell of the saddle, which can cause pain. This can be alleviated with more surface area contact. Selle SMP saddles are shaped in such a way that you can have quite a bit of surface area contact with the saddle. Some SMP saddles don't have padding at all, just a hard carbon fiber shell. Pain because of too little padding is typically somewhat sharp and usually pretty well localized.

The other type of padding related pain is due to too much padding where the padding conforms around the sit bone but there's too much material pressing against the soft tissues. Ie. the sit bones sink too deep into the padding material. This deprives the affected tissues of blood flow and oxygen. The pain related to too much padding is also fairly well localized, but can reflect to areas around the affected area and is usually a dull aching type of pain.

But the tricky part is that the dull aching pain and the sharp pain can feel exactly the same for some people. Trying to differentiate between various types of pain and their causes can be difficult.

However in the context of Selle SMP and especially the Well, it is highly unlikely that there is too much padding on the saddle. While it is the lower end type of saddle they make, the standard Well is pretty thinly padded and the padding that's there is of a fairly loose variety, so I doubt too much padding is the issue. Other lower end SMP saddles usually a lot more padding, but even then it's pretty loose stuff so they're more likely to cause chafing rather than blood flow issues.

I used to ride the Selle SMP Dynamic and had the issues you describe BUT the pain was the dull achy type I've had with too padded saddles. I was sceptical of the Dynamic having too much padding and so I went the other way and got a Drakon, which is the more padded version of the Dynamic. The pain disappeared and on my last 100k ride the saddle was the last thing I thought about. Then again it turns out I had a pretty badly herniated disc in my neck which kept my attention during the ride but still, no saddle issues whatsoever.
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Old 06-02-21, 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by elcruxio
...
... for the others considering the same thing, sit bone pain in relation to padding usually occurs due to two reasons. If you have too little padding, the sit bone will press through it against the hard shell of the saddle, which can cause pain. This can be alleviated with more surface area contact. Selle SMP saddles are shaped in such a way that you can have quite a bit of surface area contact with the saddle. Some SMP saddles don't have padding at all, just a hard carbon fiber shell. Pain because of too little padding is typically somewhat sharp and usually pretty well localized.

The other type of padding related pain is due to too much padding where the padding conforms around the sit bone but there's too much material pressing against the soft tissues. Ie. the sit bones sink too deep into the padding material. This deprives the affected tissues of blood flow and oxygen. The pain related to too much padding is also fairly well localized, but can reflect to areas around the affected area and is usually a dull aching type of pain.

But the tricky part is that the dull aching pain and the sharp pain can feel exactly the same for some people. Trying to differentiate between various types of pain and their causes can be difficult.
...
Very well said. Totally agree.
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Old 06-13-21, 01:11 PM
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All the issues I've ever had were because of padding (shorts or saddle). For more than 10 yrs I'm riding unpadded leather saddles,never wearpadded shorts or pants and have never had issues since.
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Old 06-17-21, 08:04 AM
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IMO In order of importance:

1. Correct shape/width for your arse
2.
3.


...
24. Thin, firm padding
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Old 06-17-21, 07:15 PM
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"This is an imperfect world of joy and sorrow mingled. There may be a better land where bicycle saddles are made out of rainbow, stuffed with cloud; in this world the simplest thing is to get used to something hard." - Three Men on the Bummel by Jerome K. Jerome, 1900.
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