VaAu

The subject frame has no top tube braze-ons to serve as cable guides.

Is this expected or unusual and does this provide insight into the particular model of the 61 Paramount frame (assuming that Schwinn even marketed different Paramount 'models' in 1961)?

The stamp on the chromed, non-drive side campy dropout is G78.

Also, the stamp on the Nervex BB shell appears to be: 61 64 D22 F38

Thanks

mudboy

The lack of top tube cable guides is completely expected. Top tube cable guides can still be found fairly readily.

Scooper

The 1961 Paramount models were:

P12 Paramount Road Racer (dealer catalog illustration below includes rear brake cable top tube braze-ons)

P11 Men's Paramount Tourist (available with 10-speed, 3-speed, single-speed freewheel, or coaster brake rear hub)

P61 Ladies' Paramount Tourist

P14 Men's Paramount Track Bike

Unfortunately, the dealer catalog for 1961 didn't include illustrations of the P11, P61, or P14 models.

VaAu

Thanks Mudboy

Do you know if the angles coded into the Nervex bottom bracket shell provide additional insights into the particular 'model' that the 1961 paramount frame may be? Schwinn used Nervex Professional lugs I believe, but there were different angles available within the Nervex Professional category.

VaAu

Thanks Scooper.

I wonder if the Nervex BB angle info stamed onto the BB could help ID which of the three mens models you posted? I am leaning toward P14 track bike, based on assumption that both P12 and P11 may have had top tube cable guide braze ons. OR, possibly custom frame???

well biked

If it's a track bike, that's easy to identify by the rear dropouts. Track bikes have rear "dropouts" that open to the rear. Here's a pic:
https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3143/...881efeaa_z.jpg

Scooper

The 61 64 BB shell was for a more or less standard road frame with a 22" to 24" seat tube and 72 degree STA.





The P14 would have had track ends instead of rear dropouts. I'm just guessing here, but I don't think the coaster brake P11 tourist model would have had rear brake cable braze-ons.

elguicho 

Any pictures?

Oregon Southpaw

Yeah, we're going to need some pictures here.

VaAu

Thanks Well Biked. It is not a track frame based on dropouts shape.

VaAu

Scooper,

Wonderful Nervex lug data. There is only one braze-on, for the real derailleur cable, so not a P11, do you agree?

VaAu

I'll take some pictures and post soon

Scooper

If there's a rear derailleur cable braze-on, it obviously wasn't originally equipped with a coaster brake. Without some good photos, I'm stumped.

Scooper

There's always Waterford's provenance service if you're curious enough to spend $50 to find out more about the bike.

JohnDThompson 

No, they're more likely to be related to frame size.

VaAu

Trying to upload pics

VaAu

Upload from computer option doesn't seem to work ??

VaAu

pastorbobnlnh 

Hasn't this Paramount been here on C&V in the past? I seem to remember it was in the D.C./Maryland area.

It is an early '60s Paramount, and I think it is strange that the rear brake cable guides are not present. Removed and repainted? A special order?

VaAu

Yes, I bought the frame on Friday last week, DC Metro area. Two of the pictures I posted I copied from some other post somewhere on the WEB..the others I took this morning.

It looks to have been repainted and possibly rechromed. Seems like a really good paint job. I'm not a paint guy, but I've seen crappy paint jobs and this isn't one of them. I think either the cable guides were removed OR I wonder if G78 was a special order that requested guides not be attached??? (Bit of a stretch??).

I may drop $50 and see what Waterford has to say.

Scooper

Bob, I'm thinking the same thing about the rear brake cable braze-ons. It's possible a previous owner removed them in favor of using the three Campy 649 brake cable clips used on the later P13.

With the derailleur hanger and RD cable guide on the drive side chainstay, it just about has to be a P11 or P12.

...and you're right; that frameset looks very familiar.

VaAu

I see your one of those crazies who actually disassembles freewheels..very cool. I have a Schimano mega-range (11-34 I believe) which are not available anymore. Often though about taking it apart...one of these days.

VaAu

Scooper said:

The 1961 Paramount models were:
P12 Paramount Road Racer (dealer catalog illustration below includes rear brake cable top tube braze-ons)
P11 Men's Paramount Tourist (available with 10-speed, 3-speed, single-speed freewheel, or coaster brake rear hub)
P61 Ladies' Paramount Tourist
P14 Men's Paramount Track Bike

OK, so most likely it is P11 or P12.

I read somewhere that road racers tended to not bother with chrome. My frame is chromed, and assuming it was originally chromed as well, then I conclude it may be P11 10-speed.

The P11 3-speed would not have had a DR guide on the chain stay, correct?

well biked

Here's a pic of my '71 P13 with the Campy clips. Scooper, I have a couple of questions (not meaning to derail this thread). When they built frames such as my P13, they already had determined which brake set the bike would be equipped with, because if it were to be equipped with the standard centerpulls it would have the brazed on cable guides, correct? On bikes that were not custom ordered, I wonder how they determined which ones would come equipped with Campy sidepulls and which ones would be equipped with Weinmann centerpulls?

Beautiful frame, VaAu!

Scooper

Lots of P13-9s came with centerpull Weinmanns and continuous brake cable housings with the 649 clips, so they really didn't need to know whether the frame would be fitted with sidepulls or centerpulls. Beginning in abround 1971, the P10-9 and P15-9 models had the brake cable braze-ons and the P13-9 road racers used the 649 clips.

Here's my 1971 P13-9 with centerpull brakes and clips, and my 1972 P15-9 with centerpulls and braze-ons.





Many P12s were ordered with chrome plated head lugs, fork blade tips, and rear triangle tips, so the fact that the subject bike has chrome doesn't necessarily mean it's a P11. Schwinn eventually offered chrome head lugs, fork blade tips, and rear triangle tips as standard on the P13-9 instead of as a special order option on the P12.