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1986 Custom Fuji Frame or is it?

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1986 Custom Fuji Frame or is it?

Old 10-25-17, 06:53 PM
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Don Buska
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1986 Custom Fuji Frame or is it?

Just acquired this frame (52cm C-T) and it was sold as being Fuji and all indications I come up with seem to agree with that. However, this is NOT a standard frame from a bike presented in their catalogs! I am providing pictures that show some of the items I will discuss here. My goal is to get any additional insight from the Fuji experts on the forum. Here are some of the pictures and highlights:



- Bottom Bracket (BB) underside has the serial number C652. That means it was made in March of 1986 and was the 52nd frame produced. These special four (sometime five) character serial numbers were reserved for the Fuji Opus III from 1984 onward or their hand-built 'Design Series' from 1986-1988 time frame. Also, perhaps used for any fully custom builds, like perhaps this frame?

- The BB is almost identical to what appears on the mid-80's Opus III bikes.






- The color of this bike matches nothing I've seen in any of the Fuji catalogs, i.e. a metallic purple. Paint job is very well done and professional. Notice there are no decals on this frame at all. Nor do I see any remnants of there ever being any decals on it.

- The fork is standard Fuji. It is an Ishiwata make, which was common for the Fuji's in the 70-80's time frame. Fork tube has the standard JIS stamp, ISHIWATA and the '6.C' Not sure if the 6.C is a date code? Naturally the sloping fork crown has the engraved F surrounded by a circular leafing. I think this is a post 1984 fork engraving style. Bottom line is this is a Fuji fork and appear to be the exact model they used on their custom Design Series. This fork is all chrome and there are no signs of residual paint if it had ever been painted - but that doesn't mean it wasn't at one time.



- The chroming on the rear stays is very reminiscent of that used by many companies in the 1970's. Usually by the mid-80's chrome was reserved for dropout ends and lugs, maybe the chain side of the chainstay too. However, remember the S/N dates this frame to 1986!

- The dropouts front and rear are chromed Suntour Superbe Pro's. So this is definitely a higher-end frame.



- The shift cables ran below the BB. You can even see the cable rub marks indicating they were being used. Also, the rear derailleur cable stop braze-on is located on the underside of the chainstay (5mm casing stop).

- Really Weird Item #1. On the lower portion of the non-driveside on the top-tube are two braze-on cable guides. When I saw this frame initially I thought these were cable stops, but they are not. The weird part is they are made for the 4mm cable jacket size. Their placement indicates these would most likely be for the rear brake cables, but 4mm is usually reserved for derailleur cables only! Yes, I thought it could be a drop-down run for a front derailleur, but that doesn't make sense as the BB has the guides for both derailleur runs and they have been used. Anyone have a guess why they would have used 4mm guides along the top tube? BTW, I plan on using these for the rear brake run by inserting 4mm to 5mm stop ferrule reducer adapters into each of these guide braze-ons. I will run 5mm cable jackets fore and aft and only bare cable between the two guides along the top tube.






- Really Weird Item #2. The lugs on the head-tube are a bit more fancy than the Ishiwata brand versions I've seen on 70-80's vintage Fuji's. So these may be made by a different manufacturer. Does anyone recognize these lugs? Note: These front lugs have no cutouts! My 1980 Fuji Newest has the heart shaped cutouts on the top of both tube lugs.



- Both brake mounts are designed for sleeve nuts (hidden).

- I have no idea what frame material is used. In this time frame the Opus III and the Design Series used Ishiwata 019E (Fuji 9658 Quad-butted CoMo). There is a bit of the down-tube that I can access via the BB inside, but I will need to make a measurement tool to get at it, as my dial calipers won't do it. Knowing the end thickness of that tube might tell me if it is possibly 019E. BTW, the frame and fork weigh in at 5.92lbs (2685 grams). Normally they take away the brazing and lugs when specify frame weight in tubing catalogs and a good reference weight for those would be around 625-650 grams. So that puts this frame set at around 2025 grams which is in line with the 019E tubing specs +/- 100g.

- Overall the finish has survived well on this frame. I'd rate the chrome at a 9 out of 10. I will need to keep it waxed due to fine pitting that is occurring in some areas. The paint has the most chips on the drive-side on the top-tube and upper seatstay. I should be able to touch those up fairly easily. Funny there are no scratches near where the front derailleur would be mounted. That's something I rarely see!

- Components that came with this frame: It appears that parts must have been swapped out over the years. It did come with a Suntour Superbe SP-SB00-L seatpost (@ 26.8mm another standard for Fuji high-end frames), WooHoo (which also has a Fuji branding on the front side). A Hatta Vesta headset and the Shimano BB Set. The person I bought the frame from told me it had Shimano 600 and Suntour XC Components On it, so definitely a hodgepodge of components.

I've been wanting a frame to build up a last generation Suntour Superbe Pro Group set on. I've had my mind set on a frame with chromed Superbe Pro dropouts and this one fit the bill. I will use the final Accushift derailleurs with the handlebar Command Shifters (7-Speed Freewheel). SB Pro hubs too. Basically a bike that shows the best and final hurrah lineup that Suntour had to offer. I even plan on a final decal workup to replicate the Suntour SUPERBE tradeshow demonstrator bikes that appears in some of the catalogs of that timeframe.

I'd be interested in any input on this frame that anyone here can provide. Did Fuji make many custom frames during the mid-to-late 1980's? Outside the items presented as 'Weird #1 and #2' and the overall color, this frame is very much like those offered under the Design Series in 1986 and 1987.

Last edited by Don Buska; 10-25-17 at 08:07 PM.
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Old 10-25-17, 07:58 PM
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No idea, but glad you got it. I was watching this on the bay and was interested in its details as well
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Old 10-25-17, 08:14 PM
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I have no answers to your questions, but I like the frame. I hope you enjoy it.
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Old 10-25-17, 11:14 PM
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Update #1 - Frame Tubing Identified.

Paul (pcb) was very observant in noticing the angled contact (brazing) point between the chainstay and the rear dropout. He said he's only seen that on some older Cherubim bikes before. That got me to thinking about that Fuji Design Series again. I could almost see that same angled contact point on the catalog pictures when blown way up. I then remembered a really nice series of pictures in a flickr album for a Fuji Design Series and sure enough it's the same frame (chainstay) styling. A closer review of that bike also shows that all my lugs, except for the head tube are the same. So basically my frame appears to be an early version of what later became the Design Series.

Conclusion: I am 90% certain that the frame is Ishiwata 019E Quad Butted tubing. Which I think is equivalent to the Fuji 9658 tubing. If anyone has a Fuji Design Series frame can you post a picture of the tubing sticker on the seat-tube.

Last edited by Don Buska; 10-25-17 at 11:17 PM.
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Old 10-26-17, 07:21 AM
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Nice frame, Don! It's definitely one of the hand built artisan frames. The decals on these bikes were water slides, and they're very delicate. They come right off and won't leave a trace. That appears to be the original paint, and it's not a standard color from the Design Series or Opus models. The brake cable stops are unusual, too. So between the color and the cable stops I think it might be a custom, perhaps a JDM (Japanese Domestic Market) custom frame. That's my guess.

I have a Design Series bike, so here's a photo of that tubing decal you'd requested:
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Old 10-26-17, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Don Buska

- Really Weird Item #1. On the lower portion of the non-driveside on the top-tube are two braze-on cable guides. When I saw this frame initially I thought these were cable stops, but they are not. The weird part is they are made for the 4mm cable jacket size. Their placement indicates these would most likely be for the rear brake cables, but 4mm is usually reserved for derailleur cables only! Yes, I thought it could be a drop-down run for a front derailleur, but that doesn't make sense as the BB has the guides for both derailleur runs and they have been used. Anyone have a guess why they would have used 4mm guides along the top tube? BTW, I plan on using these for the rear brake run by inserting 4mm to 5mm stop ferrule reducer adapters into each of these guide braze-ons. I will run 5mm cable jackets fore and aft and only bare cable between the two guides along the top tube.
Your plan is exactly right. I am 99.9% sure that using the top tube braze ons with step down ferrules was the original intent. It would have been a slightly retro thing in 1986 to have lower side mount top tube cable stops, but not that unusual really. Maybe it was a JDM thing. 5 mm cable stops at that time were generally intended for MTBs and would look kind of bulky on a fine road frame. Helmet stops were a better choice.


Beautiful frame. Clearly artisan built. A notch above the normal top model.
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Old 10-26-17, 08:00 AM
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Great looking frame. Are you checking Fuji catalogs from other countries especially Canada? It's possible your frame is just not something marketed in America but somehow ended up here.

Were brake and derailleur cables different sizes when this was made? Or perhaps those cable brazeons were intended to be used with a stepped ferule to keep the cable in a straighter line.
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Old 10-26-17, 08:23 AM
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The inside of the bottom bracket shell shows a square cut chain stay end. I would expect a custom frame to be mitred. The square cut is typical of a mass production model, though I've never had the opportunity to inspect the inside of a Fuji Design Series.

However, we have seen atypical Design Series bicycles before. I've seen one serialized October 1985 with stay chroming beyond the brake bridge, atypical livery and a pump peg. I'm not sure if these are indicators of a custom build or a foreign market model. I'm leaning towards the latter, as I doubt they were doing custom decals.

We know that Fuji went to rear brake cable routing under the down tube on American models in 1987, so it's conceivable they were using it slightly earlier on foreign market models. Regarding the size, it's possible that they are meant to be stops and used with necked ferrules. The presence oftwo eyelets, as opposed to three, also suggests they are stops.

Even assuming it is custom, I'm surprised by the lack of decals. By this era, Fuji was clear coating over decals, so they wouldn't be easy to remove. IMO, the lack of decals suggests a very high probability of a repaint and, ifit's been repainted,that opens up the possibility of changes in fittings.

Regarding the steerer tube stamping, 6.C is a date code, indicating March 1986, so it's a good match with the frame.

I do not believe that Fuji 9658 is Ishiwata 019E. I believe that 9658 corresponds to the four butt gauges and if so, corresponds to Ishiwata EXO-M. If Ishiwata 019E had a four digit Fuji number, it would likely be 8547. An Ishiwata 019E frame would theoretically use a 27.0mm post,while a Fuji 9658 frame would theoretically use a 26.8mm post. Unfortunately, these are so close that things like corrosion, scale, burrs and distortion can easily result in misinterpretation when trying to measure the tubes and could result in an undersize post being employed. Similarly, overzealous reaming, could require an oversized post.

The bottom line is that I can't say if it is custom, though it may have been customized after being manufactured. There's also the distinct possibility that it is simply a foreign market model. However, I do think it is a repaint.

Last edited by T-Mar; 10-26-17 at 08:28 AM.
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Old 10-26-17, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by tinkerbike
Nice frame, Don! It's definitely one of the hand built artisan frames. The decals on these bikes were water slides, and they're very delicate. They come right off and won't leave a trace. That appears to be the original paint, and it's not a standard color from the Design Series or Opus models. The brake cable stops are unusual, too. So between the color and the cable stops I think it might be a custom, perhaps a JDM (Japanese Domestic Market) custom frame. That's my guess.

I have a Design Series bike, so here's a photo of that tubing decal you'd requested:
Thanks for the frame decal. I'm going to send it over to JR at Velocals as this one is not part of their current line up, but it should be a very easy modification to the computer artwork for their existing line-up. It would be neat to find a Ishiwata 019E decal, but I've never seen one of those, only the plain 019's.

Thanks for your evaluation too. Don
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Old 10-26-17, 10:05 AM
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Can't really help on saying if it is custom or a top of the line lower production frame. The Superbee dropouts/ braze on's and numbers indicate it is a hand built frame from 1986. As for the cable guides I'm pretty sure these were designed to work with fitted Superbee cables but can also be used with 4mm stepped furrels.

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Old 10-26-17, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar
The inside of the bottom bracket shell shows a square cut chain stay end. I would expect a custom frame to be mitred. The square cut is typical of a mass production model, though I've never had the opportunity to inspect the inside of a Fuji Design Series.

However, we have seen atypical Design Series bicycles before. I've seen one serialized October 1985 with stay chroming beyond the brake bridge, atypical livery and a pump peg. I'm not sure if these are indicators of a custom build or a foreign market model. I'm leaning towards the latter, as I doubt they were doing custom decals.

We know that Fuji went to rear brake cable routing under the down tube on American models in 1987, so it's conceivable they were using it slightly earlier on foreign market models. Regarding the size, it's possible that they are meant to be stops and used with necked ferrules. The presence oftwo eyelets, as opposed to three, also suggests they are stops.

Even assuming it is custom, I'm surprised by the lack of decals. By this era, Fuji was clear coating over decals, so they wouldn't be easy to remove. IMO, the lack of decals suggests a very high probability of a repaint and, ifit's been repainted,that opens up the possibility of changes in fittings.

Regarding the steerer tube stamping, 6.C is a date code, indicating March 1986, so it's a good match with the frame.

I do not believe that Fuji 9658 is Ishiwata 019E. I believe that 9658 corresponds to the four butt gauges and if so, corresponds to Ishiwata EXO-M. If Ishiwata 019E had a four digit Fuji number, it would likely be 8547. An Ishiwata 019E frame would theoretically use a 27.0mm post,while a Fuji 9658 frame would theoretically use a 26.8mm post. Unfortunately, these are so close that things like corrosion, scale, burrs and distortion can easily result in misinterpretation when trying to measure the tubes and could result in an undersize post being employed. Similarly, overzealous reaming, could require an oversized post.

The bottom line is that I can't say if it is custom, though it may have been customized after being manufactured. There's also the distinct possibility that it is simply a foreign market model. However, I do think it is a repaint.

Thanks T-Mar for the valuable insights as always. I agree that the EXO-M butting sizes do agree with the 9658 numbering and I did have that on my list of possible tubing earlier. The weird thing is the Fuji catalogs (86-88) indicated the Design Series used the 019E which I couldn't find any data on and the tubes are marked with the 9658 decals on the physical bikes (see tinkerbike's message). From your message it appears that 019E is QB with .8 X.5 X .4 X .7 wall thicknesses. That's good to know and I will update my text file that I keep records on the various Ishiwata tubing in. Do you have a catalog page on the 019E you can share? Now the dilemma, do I use an EXO sticker or have Velocal make up a new 9658? I'd opt for giving Fuji the credit as I don't plan on adding the big FUJI stickers to the seat and down tubes. I was only going to add the Fuji mountain logo to the head-tube and the remaining decals would honor Suntour and the SUPERBE PRO lineup.

Also, thanks for the fork date code confirmation and the additional insight into the brake cable run.
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Old 10-26-17, 10:16 AM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by zukahn1
Can't really help on saying if it is custom or a top of the line lower production frame. The Superbee dropouts/ braze on's and numbers indicate it is a hand built frame from 1986. As for the cable guides I'm pretty sure these were designed to work with fitted Superbee cables but can also be used with 4mm stepped furrels.
That's the first I've ever heard of "Superbe Fitted cables". I'll look through the old Suntour catalogs, but that just doesn't ring a bell. Thanks, I'll investigate.
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Old 10-26-17, 10:22 AM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by Bianchigirll
Great looking frame. Are you checking Fuji catalogs from other countries especially Canada? It's possible your frame is just not something marketed in America but somehow ended up here.

Were brake and derailleur cables different sizes when this was made? Or perhaps those cable brazeons were intended to be used with a stepped ferule to keep the cable in a straighter line.
Thanks. The only Fuji catalogs I had access to were the ones on the Classic Fuji site. All those appear to be USA versions. Always on the lookout for any Fuji catalogs from the 60-80's period in any language. I'm sure the Classic Fuji site would post them too. I often consult my Japanese Suntour catalog, even though I can't read much of the text, except for the numbers
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Old 10-26-17, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine
Your plan is exactly right. I am 99.9% sure that using the top tube braze ons with step down ferrules was the original intent. It would have been a slightly retro thing in 1986 to have lower side mount top tube cable stops, but not that unusual really. Maybe it was a JDM thing. 5 mm cable stops at that time were generally intended for MTBs and would look kind of bulky on a fine road frame. Helmet stops were a better choice.


Beautiful frame. Clearly artisan built. A notch above the normal top model.
Thanks - that seems to be the current consensus on those top tube braze-ons. My 95 Gary Fisher has those multitude of open cable runs across the top-tube. Understandable on a MTB with all the dirt flying around, less water to get into the cable jackets when cleaning. I've seen more of these external top tube runs on some European road bikes in the 70-80's time frame. It sure does add to the uniqueness of this frame though.
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Old 10-26-17, 10:50 AM
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Here's the gauge chart for 019 & 019E. I'm sure you can figure out the columns and save me a little cutting and pasting. If I did the whole page, it would be too small to read.
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Old 10-26-17, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Bianchigirll
Great looking frame. Are you checking Fuji catalogs from other countries especially Canada? It's possible your frame is just not something marketed in America but somehow ended up here...
I'm pretty sure it's not Canadian market. While I didn't carry Fuji when I managed the LBS, I did have to keep abreast of the competition and the Canadian Fuji models always seemed to be identical to the USA offerings. However, I definitely wouldn't rule out an Asian or European variant.
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Old 10-26-17, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine
...Beautiful frame. Clearly artisan built. A notch above the normal top model.
Agreed, it is nicely finished but I have a very hard time applying "artisan" to a frame which does not have mitred chainstays. It would be interesting to know if this was standard practice on other, known Design Series frames. I would hope not!
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Old 10-26-17, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar
Agreed, it is nicely finished but I have a very hard time applying "artisan" to a frame which does not have mitred chainstays. It would be interesting to know if this was standard practice on other, known Design Series frames. I would hope not!
Artisan like the special hamburgers at mickey D's? Yeah, that's a reasonable point of view. You're right, it isn't technically truly artisan because it's basically a fancy factory model with some production shortcuts still in place -- as you point out.

Regardless of nomenclature, I'll stick to my assessment of the frame being one notch above normal production top of line. Clearly there's some hand filing and extra prep in the lugs and other features.
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Old 10-26-17, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Don Buska
Conclusion: I am 90% certain that the frame is Ishiwata 019E Quad Butted tubing. Which I think is equivalent to the Fuji 9658 tubing. If anyone has a Fuji Design Series frame can you post a picture of the tubing sticker on the seat-tube.
Hmm, I don't have great photos, but these two might do... Oops, I see that someone beat me to it.

After I bought what was once Bianchigirll's Fuji Pro SR, I reached out to some New England Fuji dealers to find info on the bike. I got in touch with one dealer who claimed to have a Fuji customized from the factory. I cannot confirm that happened, but I don't know why he would lie. Seeing the one-off black Fuji pursuit/road a few years ago, and my white early track frame, I don't see any reason to doubt it.
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Last edited by beech333; 10-26-17 at 05:53 PM.
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Old 10-26-17, 06:13 PM
  #20  
kcblair
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Nice frame Don, love that color. So, when will we see the final build ???
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Old 10-26-17, 06:25 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by T-Mar
Here's the gauge chart for 019 & 019E. I'm sure you can figure out the columns and save me a little cutting and pasting. If I did the whole page, it would be too small to read.
Thanks T-Mar. I have added your graphic to my Ishiwata document for future reference. I totally agree with your assessment of how Fuji chose the part numbers for their tubing by contracting the butted 10th mm digits. However, in this case all the Fuji catalogs indicate the Design Series (DS) used 019E tubing. I have three first hand examples now of the physical decals on DS road bikes and all are labeled Fuji 9658. Wonder why Fuji doesn't agree with your analysis? Seriously, I'm not trying to be cocky as they seem to be breaking their own rules.

It is interesting they had that VALite 9568 QB Steel tubing which I assume is Mangy EXO QB stuff. Same butting dimension in a different order.

BTW, my frame dimensions are very much the same as the DS 52cm version, except my top tube is a wee bit longer at 540mm vs 525mm in their catalog. Which makes my seat-tube angle around 74 degrees vs their 75 degrees. My wheel base might be a little different too, but right now I don't have the fork installed so such measurements would be very inaccurate at this point. Also my frame weight is about 1/3 lb (160 grams) heavier than the catalog DS version, but the fork weights are exactly the same. That could be due to my little longer frame and slightly different front lugs. It does kind of point out that mine was never really a repainted DS version.

On the observation you made regarding internal BB mitering. From the Fuji DS catalog page;"Our Fuji Craftsmen hand braze, miter and file each and every frame with uncompromising attention to detail". Another indication mine is probably not a DS model. or as the saying goes 'What goes on inside the bottom bracket, stays inside the bottom bracket"

Last edited by Don Buska; 10-26-17 at 07:03 PM.
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Old 10-26-17, 06:35 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by kcblair
Nice frame Don, love that color. So, when will we see the final build ???
Thanks Ken. Well I need to stop finding these frames and get building/restoring. I have the 75 'The Finest', 75 S10-S (my first YELLOW bike) and now this 86 Fuji 'Whatever' Beside some upgrades and yearly lubing on the existing fleet winter may not be long enough. I did get a 30 miles ride in today as it was sunny, but only in the lower 50's. Still was able to wear shorts though. Next week it falls below my outdoor minimum of 50 so it moves to the indoor trainer and basement bike work season begins
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Old 10-26-17, 06:38 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by beech333
Hmm, I don't have great photos, but these two might do... Oops, I see that someone beat me to it.

After I bought what was once Bianchigirll's Fuji Pro SR, I reached out to some New England Fuji dealers to find info on the bike. I got in touch with one dealer who claimed to have a Fuji customized from the factory. I cannot confirm that happened, but I don't know why he would lie. Seeing the one-off black Fuji pursuit/road a few years ago, and my white early track frame, I don't see any reason to doubt it.
Thanks for the additional tubing decals. Solidly Fuji indicated their 9658 was 019E - at least if one believes three years of catalog pages on the DS line.
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Old 10-26-17, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Don Buska
Thanks Ken. Well I need to stop finding these frames and get building/restoring. I have the 75 'The Finest', 75 S10-S (my first YELLOW bike) and now this 86 Fuji 'Whatever' Beside some upgrades and yearly lubing on the existing fleet winter may not be long enough. I did get a 30 miles ride in today as it was sunny, but only in the lower 50's. Still was able to wear shorts though. Next week it falls below my outdoor minimum of 50 so it moves to the indoor trainer and basement bike work season begins
Same here, tomorrow , I will have to start my ride at 48, but should be 50 in an hour. I've put over 600 mi. on my BS500. I find it to be a nice , long distance bike. Got rid of the 52T chainring, and have a 50T, makes great for cruising.

I'm trying to better my longest mileage in 2010 of 2164 mi. Only 66 mi. to go. Two days to do it, before rain sets in again. KB
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Old 10-26-17, 08:17 PM
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If it helps, I just snapped a shot of the BB on my 1985 Opus III. As you can see, it does look the same except for the method of cable routing

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