The most underrated vintage bikes?
10-10-20, 04:17 AM
#76
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I had a Takara Deluxe Touring when I was in HS and I rode the hell out of it. I recently came across an '81 Deluxe 12 all original survivor. While it won't climb hills for me like my modern bike, it tickles me to death to take it out for spins on the local path system.
10-10-20, 05:19 PM
#77
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Bikes: 82 Trek 710, 90 Trek 750, 86 Vitus, Nishiki Cervino, 1989 Bianchi CdI, 2 Nashbars, an Italian Steel MTB, Sears Spaceliner, and a 74 Schwinn Speedster. I also manage a fleet of Volcanic Patrol bikes, 83 of them.
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83 Nishiki Cervino. American company with Japanese name, the bike was hand crafted in Italy.
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11-19-20, 12:02 AM
#78
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Ron Stout
This, all freakin' day long. I'm always amazed/thrilled at how little it can cost to land a really well-made handbuilt frame from one of the lesser-known US builders. Then I'm always amazed/depressed/traumatized at how little I can get when I try to sell one. I understand few ever heard of them, and so they are therefore seldom dream/grail/nostalgia buys for anybody. Obscurity is not the kind of rarity that brings high prices. Great when you're buying, crappy on the other end.
You can add a few smaller, semi-production builders to the mix as well.
It's the fundamental equation that bothers me. You have very skilled builders, often with hundreds/+ frames under their belts, building frames one at a time, with much more care and attention than can be done on a production line. Yet clean factory production frames, granted some of them iconic, can sell for lots more. Or the used small-volume frames/bikes sell for a much lower percentage of original price than factory/production frames/completes.
On one level I totally get it, but on another level I just can't wrap my brain around it.
There are also apparently sellers more stubborn than me, who keep relisting stuff like this at prices they think/hope it's worth, but nobody's buying.
The US builder list could be exhaustive, from my own experience I've bought/ridden/sold/kept:
Walter Croll: first only Croll himself, then sold to a small group of builders after some drama
Davidson: small group of builders; Impulse are tight/racy, Navigator are sport-tour, with better tire clearance
Giuseppe Marinoni: well, Canada, but Marinoni's built heaps o' frames, and they seldom sell for big $$$
Bernie Mikkelsen: very prolific, Bernies built thousands of frames since the '70s
Peter Mooney: current/recent frames are very elaborate, but '70s-'80s stuff not so much, with lower prices
Dave Moulton/Fuso: high asking prices, low-ish actual selling prices, when they sell
Serotta: maybe a stretch, but phenomenal builders went through there, and earlier frames aren't pricey
Spectrum/Kellogg: 21st-century bikes sell high, but '80s-era not so much
Ron Stout
Rob Stowe/Phase 3
Waterford: I have a W'ford connection and am biased, but even relatively recent W'fords can sell for a fraction of new pricing
I don't know a lot about one-man British builders, but there are smaller-volume British brands that are often overlooked. Bob Jacksons often seem to get good prices, probably because so many were imported in the '70s-'80s and so in a lot of catalogs. Not so much for:
Holdsworth
Mercian: still in business, you can still order yourself a new one; recent ones can still bring some dollars, but older ones can be relative bargains
MKM
Chas. Roberts
Woodrup
As for Italian, oy vey. My nephew is stationed in Italy now, got a hankering for "an Erioca bike," and was texting me photos of the affordable stuff in his local shops, near Vincenza. So many Italian names I never, ever heard of, on really nice-looking frames. Some small builders, some major brands I had never heard of.
You can add a few smaller, semi-production builders to the mix as well.
It's the fundamental equation that bothers me. You have very skilled builders, often with hundreds/+ frames under their belts, building frames one at a time, with much more care and attention than can be done on a production line. Yet clean factory production frames, granted some of them iconic, can sell for lots more. Or the used small-volume frames/bikes sell for a much lower percentage of original price than factory/production frames/completes.
On one level I totally get it, but on another level I just can't wrap my brain around it.
There are also apparently sellers more stubborn than me, who keep relisting stuff like this at prices they think/hope it's worth, but nobody's buying.
The US builder list could be exhaustive, from my own experience I've bought/ridden/sold/kept:
Walter Croll: first only Croll himself, then sold to a small group of builders after some drama
Davidson: small group of builders; Impulse are tight/racy, Navigator are sport-tour, with better tire clearance
Giuseppe Marinoni: well, Canada, but Marinoni's built heaps o' frames, and they seldom sell for big $$$
Bernie Mikkelsen: very prolific, Bernies built thousands of frames since the '70s
Peter Mooney: current/recent frames are very elaborate, but '70s-'80s stuff not so much, with lower prices
Dave Moulton/Fuso: high asking prices, low-ish actual selling prices, when they sell
Serotta: maybe a stretch, but phenomenal builders went through there, and earlier frames aren't pricey
Spectrum/Kellogg: 21st-century bikes sell high, but '80s-era not so much
Ron Stout
Rob Stowe/Phase 3
Waterford: I have a W'ford connection and am biased, but even relatively recent W'fords can sell for a fraction of new pricing
I don't know a lot about one-man British builders, but there are smaller-volume British brands that are often overlooked. Bob Jacksons often seem to get good prices, probably because so many were imported in the '70s-'80s and so in a lot of catalogs. Not so much for:
Holdsworth
Mercian: still in business, you can still order yourself a new one; recent ones can still bring some dollars, but older ones can be relative bargains
MKM
Chas. Roberts
Woodrup
As for Italian, oy vey. My nephew is stationed in Italy now, got a hankering for "an Erioca bike," and was texting me photos of the affordable stuff in his local shops, near Vincenza. So many Italian names I never, ever heard of, on really nice-looking frames. Some small builders, some major brands I had never heard of.
Ron Stout Fixie
11-19-20, 10:11 AM
#79
Senior Member
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...ese-bikes.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...ron-stout.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...ut-1987-a.html
Nice Stout! I'll often do a first fixie build on a frame I'm impatient to ride. All that multispeed junk just takes time and gets in the way!
Here's 3 Stout threads above to start off with, right here on BF/CV. They include a couple peeps who hung at Stout's shop back in the day, somebody who had Stout working for him part-time, not long before Stout passed, and I think even some posts from Stout's nephew, who visited looking for info after Ron passed. These are the first 3 threads that started as Ron Stout threads, there's plenty more where his frames turn up. All you gotta do is type "Ron Stout" into Search This Forum and it all turns up. I'm meaning that to be helpful, not snarky. I never cease to be amazed at how much info there is here on absolutely everybody and everything.
You'll also find more on the internet, there've been Stout discussions on Classic Rendezvous, paceline, probably even ibob, likely elsewhere.
I think there was a Stout-sponsored RAAM rider, he's posted about how much he loved the bike, and having sold it years ago was hoping he could either find it again, or at least get a similar one.
Like a lot of smaller regional framebuilders, Stout isn't exactly well-known, but there's actually imho a fair amount of Stout info out there for somebody who only built around 500 frames. He's not a household name even around these parts, but he seems to have a presence that exceeds his actual market penetration.
His work is impeccable, I've never seen a Stout that wasn't very nicely done. I'd still probably have my two Stouts if they only fit wider tires.
I probably should be careful how I use "regional," just remembering I have a Stout catalog somewhere that I picked up at the New York International Bicycle And Toy Show in '81 or so. He did spend time and money to schlep out to NYC and have a show booth. So his aspirations weren't regional.
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...ron-stout.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...ut-1987-a.html
Nice Stout! I'll often do a first fixie build on a frame I'm impatient to ride. All that multispeed junk just takes time and gets in the way!
Here's 3 Stout threads above to start off with, right here on BF/CV. They include a couple peeps who hung at Stout's shop back in the day, somebody who had Stout working for him part-time, not long before Stout passed, and I think even some posts from Stout's nephew, who visited looking for info after Ron passed. These are the first 3 threads that started as Ron Stout threads, there's plenty more where his frames turn up. All you gotta do is type "Ron Stout" into Search This Forum and it all turns up. I'm meaning that to be helpful, not snarky. I never cease to be amazed at how much info there is here on absolutely everybody and everything.
You'll also find more on the internet, there've been Stout discussions on Classic Rendezvous, paceline, probably even ibob, likely elsewhere.
I think there was a Stout-sponsored RAAM rider, he's posted about how much he loved the bike, and having sold it years ago was hoping he could either find it again, or at least get a similar one.
Like a lot of smaller regional framebuilders, Stout isn't exactly well-known, but there's actually imho a fair amount of Stout info out there for somebody who only built around 500 frames. He's not a household name even around these parts, but he seems to have a presence that exceeds his actual market penetration.
His work is impeccable, I've never seen a Stout that wasn't very nicely done. I'd still probably have my two Stouts if they only fit wider tires.
I probably should be careful how I use "regional," just remembering I have a Stout catalog somewhere that I picked up at the New York International Bicycle And Toy Show in '81 or so. He did spend time and money to schlep out to NYC and have a show booth. So his aspirations weren't regional.
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11-19-20, 10:25 AM
#80
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2002 Kestrel 200 SCi. Full carbon. Campagnolo groupset. My first bike that I picked up during covid. Sadly too large for me so I had to let it go. Still looking for a replacement in my size.
11-19-20, 10:34 AM
#81
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The Austro Daimlers and Puchs built in Graz with 531 were silver-brazed, and if you're patient they can be picked up at bargain prices. My long-lost '76 Royal X surfaced on FB marketplace for $100, full 531 with its original Dura-Ace crankset, BB and headset, Cyclone front derailleur and power ratchet DT shifters and first generation Weinmann Carrera sidepulls. A little while later my broke self watched a clean full 531 A-D and a Schwinn High Sierra package deal for $150 go by on that same platform.
Batavus is indeed another one to watch for - I still kinda hope one of the green Batavus Pros with 531 and chrome socks from the mid-70s will surface somewhere nearby and cheap. The mid-range Batavus Course I had for a while was a pretty decent bike, too.
Batavus is indeed another one to watch for - I still kinda hope one of the green Batavus Pros with 531 and chrome socks from the mid-70s will surface somewhere nearby and cheap. The mid-range Batavus Course I had for a while was a pretty decent bike, too.
11-19-20, 07:14 PM
#82
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Rusty Strings, my first vintage bike , when I got back into bikes in 2007, was a Batavus Champion I bought at a flea market not far from you in Lexington, SC. I later learned that the US distributor for Batavus and Torpado had been headquartered in Lexington at one time.
11-19-20, 08:12 PM
#83
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Anything built by Kuwahara is underrated. Including Apollo & everything else including my American Flyer.................
11-20-20, 09:10 AM
#84
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11-20-20, 10:23 AM
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OH! Thread convergence! Now I know this guy's problem - he must be riding a Takara! "Good Neighbors to Know!" was the wrong tagline for them, it shoulda been, "Nobody Said Cycling was Fun."
11-20-20, 11:06 AM
#86
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I'm going to say steel framed REI Novara branded bikes.
I've owned several and there's some real gems out there. The early mtbs were designed by Scott Nicol. Some high-end steels used on some, fillet-brazing on others. I wish someone had kept their old catalog or info sheets from the early 90s, because there were some cool bikes.
Fillet brazed XR hybrid.
1993 Novara Team, originally with Tange Struts fork.
Japanese made, Tange Ultimate Ultralight tubing.
Fillet brazed XR hybrid.
1993 Novara Team, originally with Tange Struts fork.
Japanese made, Tange Ultimate Ultralight tubing.
11-20-20, 06:38 PM
#87
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For different reasons, I find myself impressed with the entry level Torpados of the late sixties or early seventies. I have found a half dozen or more. Built up four or five...
And presently have two, both planned projects.
This entry level steed is this Winter's project...
Might get back to the early sixties Professional next Summer...
And presently have two, both planned projects.
This entry level steed is this Winter's project...
Might get back to the early sixties Professional next Summer...
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"98% of the bikes I buy are projects".
"98% of the bikes I buy are projects".
12-08-20, 05:54 PM
#88
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Another Vote for Ross Signature
My ROSS Signature. I bought it for the Shimano components but after removing them, I see that the frame is very well made with Ishiwata triple butted tubing. I was going to sell it but decided to build it up as a touring bike. The frame is mint but not a looker, kind of bland 80's blue and gray.
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12-08-20, 05:57 PM
#89
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Regarding Schwinn Prologues- extremely well done framesets, every bit as nice as my '84 Paramount, one of the early ones from Waterford (sold in '86). I think it rides better, too. Mine is the grey/charcoal fade scheme.
12-08-20, 06:07 PM
#90
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+1 on Van Tuyl mid range steel...Great geometry.
I am going to add the Basso Gap. Might be the best all around frame I have ridden.
I am going to add the Basso Gap. Might be the best all around frame I have ridden.
Basically any brand from different countries that are unknown/less known in different markets. Koga-Miyata, Batavus, Eroba, Van Tuyl, Phoenix and Magneet to name a few Dutch market models. Most of these have made some really nice bikes with butted tubing, though sometimes with tubing designed by themselves so people gloss over them because they are mostly focused on Reynolds 531.
Kessels (maker of Main d'Or, Eddy Merckx and Alcyon) from the Belgian market.
Kessels (maker of Main d'Or, Eddy Merckx and Alcyon) from the Belgian market.
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1987 Crest Cannondale, 1987 Basso Gap, 1992 Rossin Performance EL, 1990ish Van Tuyl, 1985 Trek 670, 1982 AD SLE, 2003 Pinarello Surprise, 1990ish MBK Atlantique, 1987 Peugeot Competition, 1987 Nishiki Tri-A, 1981 Faggin, 1996 Cannondale M500, 1984 Mercian, 1982 AD SuperLeicht, 1985 Massi (model unknown), 1988 Daccordi Griffe , 1989 Fauxsin MTB, 1981 Ciocc Mockba, 1992 Bianchi Giro, 1977 Colnago Super
1987 Crest Cannondale, 1987 Basso Gap, 1992 Rossin Performance EL, 1990ish Van Tuyl, 1985 Trek 670, 1982 AD SLE, 2003 Pinarello Surprise, 1990ish MBK Atlantique, 1987 Peugeot Competition, 1987 Nishiki Tri-A, 1981 Faggin, 1996 Cannondale M500, 1984 Mercian, 1982 AD SuperLeicht, 1985 Massi (model unknown), 1988 Daccordi Griffe , 1989 Fauxsin MTB, 1981 Ciocc Mockba, 1992 Bianchi Giro, 1977 Colnago Super
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12-08-20, 06:14 PM
#91
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The lugged frame Free Spirits. I have no idea what year those were made. Why does every one hate them? I have thousands of around town miles on mine. Never have replaced anything other then chain tire and tubes. Maybe I was lucky and got the only good one made. For pavement it rides decent. Definitely not as nice as my fuji though.
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12-10-20, 09:33 AM
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For different reasons, I find myself impressed with the entry level Torpados of the late sixties or early seventies. I have found a half dozen or more. Built up four or five...
And presently have two, both planned projects.
This entry level steed is this Winter's project...
Might get back to the early sixties Professional next Summer...
And presently have two, both planned projects.
This entry level steed is this Winter's project...
Might get back to the early sixties Professional next Summer...
