justin10054

Pictures Here

A guy posted this on R-e-d-d-i-t saying it belongs to his father who raced it in England back in the 60s. The father now wants to restore it by having the frame chromed. No indication as to who made the frame, but the lugwork looks very nice.

Apparently I can't link to the original thread because of the bikeforums filter. Not sure what they've got against R-e-d-d-i-t.

OldsCOOL

Love that BB lug and medieval looking seat stay!

USAZorro

60's? That had to have been a bit of an anachronism even then. I can't claim to be an authority, but I thought the skip-tooth chain ring's heyday was in the 10's, 20's and 30's. The lugwork on that is reminiscent of that on Hetchins'. Whether it is or not, and if not, which might have been inspired by the other, I cannot say.

thinktubes 

iab

i hope to god he doesn't.

You would think with that extremely extended headtube lug it would be easy to identify. But I know nothing about British bikes.

Also, skip-tooth chainrings were used well into the 60s. They did transition to aluminum during the 60s so this bike certainly could be earlier.

rhm

I would guess the frame was made about 1950. Not too much earlier on account of the headset; earlier frames typically had what looks like an integrated headset (the bearing cups fit into a recess in the head lugs). The lugs appear to be what's called "bilaminate" construction, which I won't explain because this page does it better than I could.

I would certainly look at all the photos of Claud Butler frames, to see if you can find one like this; but I suspect it's another builder, such as Mercian. Compare this bike, for example; it's made with Nervex lugs plus bilaminate extensions similar to what's on OP's frame.



I would definitely NOT have the frame chromed. I would try to keep the existing paint; it looks pretty good to me, even with the bare spots. I love the box lining; it will be really hard to replace that. I wouldn't even have the crank, stem, handlebar, etc. rechromed, because they'd make the frame look bad. They will clean up better than you expect.

The crank is a Chater Lea, typical top quality gear from the post war period. I don't know when they stopped production, but I don't think they made it past 1955.

JohnDThompson 

Block chain persisted on track bikes well into the 60s.

Nice bike, whatever it is.

smontanaro 

+1. Judicious use of oxalic acid or white vineger would probably do wonders for the finish.

USAZorro

Thanks. Never knew that. That frame still makes me think it's older than 60's.

rhm

Can you give us a little better hint how to find it on R-e-d-d-i-t? I tried a few different search terms and didn't find this bike. They guy who posted it might want to know about this thread so he can benefit from our collective wisdom.

lostarchitect 

https://www.******.com/r/bicycling/c...me_for_winter/

replace the *'s with you know what.

What a weird word to ban.

I'm alerting him to this thread.

justin10054

Yeah, the seatstay cap is really cool.

oldnfixed

The box lining and paint make me think Jack Taylor. I don't know if they ever used lugs like that, though. VERY cool.

justin10054

Oh man, Claud Butler was never even on my radar before, but now I really want one. I'm assuming they're hard to find and when you do find one, it's expensive.

Just out of curiosity, what makes you think this bike isn't a Butler? It seems to tick all the right boxes from what I can tell. Unless, did Claud Butler sell lug sets to other builders?

rhm

No, I don't think Claud Butler frames are that hard to find. Look at Hillary Stone's website now and then and you'll get a fair idea of what's available. I'm sure you can get a lovely classic Claud Butler for less than a new custom or even semi-custom.

Why don't I think this is a Claud Butler frame? Well, what do I know. The stay caps are a standard Brampton or Ekla product and I can't remember ever seeing a Claud Butler with those end caps... and likewise the long lug extensions on the down and top tubes. But I'm no expert, don't quote me!

By the way, somehow the paint looks original to my eye, at least very close to the frame in age, and if it were a Claud Butler it would have his decals. This also rules out Mercian, of course.

redcaymatt

I thought Gillot when I looked at the pics.

Velognome 

+1, that style stay cap was very popular just post war through the 50's.

USAZorro

I tried Googling "Spear Point Seat Stay", and the only builders I saw referenced that actually had anything remotely similar to what was shown were Flying Scot, Hetchins, and Holdsworth I saw reference to EKLA lugset which Flying Scot was purported to use. The spear point had that similarity, but was otherwise quite different in the lugs.

Holdsworth and Hetchins (Vade Mecum and Nulli Secundus) pictures show more fantastical lug cuttings, and I might find that plausible, however the seatstay spears illustrated at the site for Holdsworth are quite different.

I had fun attempting to research, but I can't say that I have reached any definitive conclusion.

Velognome 

Hard to say why not many pictures, here is my Holland with the same caps, I've seen them before on British built frames from that period. Frame #s would be most helpful

Lascauxcaveman 

What do the letters "C L" on the crank signify?

Velognome 

CL = Chater Lea, a very nice Crank set

see:Chater Lea

Velognome 

Here is what I find interesting:

Note the heavy brazing attaching the seat stays: The Holland
The brazing is much thinner on the Holland, you can see the definition of the point against the lug.

Mystery Frame
Here /\ it's like it the stay joins the lug in a sea of braze, the tip also has 4 facets and not as refined.

Then, the underside of the down tube has the lug uncut, leaving a large tab. Is this for support? A large rider?

Also the head tube is blue, is the frame original or a repaint? If it's repainted, are the box lines and chrome part of the repaint? Maybe a pre-war frame?

Bicycle Addict

Grab a cup of coffee, start going through [url]www.classiclightweights.co.uk you should find it there, if it is British that is.
Hilary Stone The site for Classic and Vintage bicycles and their parts, email Hilary, I did with questions on a incredibly rare frame I have, he got back to me within 4 days with was great, the Brits were in a league of their own with lightweights 20's-50's
try not to spend too long looking at British lightweights because you will end up wanting 1 or 20

USAZorro

Note that Hilary is one L and is a man.

Either he, or Norris Lockley would seem very good references here.

Bicycle Addict

^ Thank you for that, should have noticed.