New tires or tire liners?
#1
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New tires or tire liners?
I have a set of Vittoria Diamante Pro tires, I like the comfort and traction they give but I get flats like crazy. They only have about 1250 miles on them, and starting to look like swiss cheese. Small rocks and glass just embed themselves into the tire too easily, causing flats.
So, I need some suggestions, should I just get new tires? If so, what would you recommend for 700cx23 and good cornering, minimal rolling resistance while have good puncture resistance.
Or should I just get some tire liners? If this, which ones? I keep hearing from LBS sales people that they are terrible. But my guess is that's just sales person talk.
I mostly commute, but do a little bit a of touring and training.
So, I need some suggestions, should I just get new tires? If so, what would you recommend for 700cx23 and good cornering, minimal rolling resistance while have good puncture resistance.
Or should I just get some tire liners? If this, which ones? I keep hearing from LBS sales people that they are terrible. But my guess is that's just sales person talk.
I mostly commute, but do a little bit a of touring and training.
#2
Bike touring webrarian
I use tire liners and very rarely get flats either around town or on tour.
They do eventually wear a hole in the tube (helps to sand down the ends) but that is much better than getting flats.
YMMV,
Ray
They do eventually wear a hole in the tube (helps to sand down the ends) but that is much better than getting flats.
YMMV,
Ray
Last edited by raybo; 07-16-11 at 08:46 AM.
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Or, you try one Gator on the back, since that's most of your flats prolly. This would allow you to keep the nice grip you like, twice over!
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#7
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IMO tire liners just are a complication, I'd suggest GatorSkins or better still Marathon plus
#8
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Perhaps try some Tire Savers (looks like "loose screws" carries them).
Maybe try a different road position, if you are currently riding too far to the edge of the roadway.
Maybe try a different road position, if you are currently riding too far to the edge of the roadway.
#9
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Mr Tuffy's are tricky to install without destroying your tube in short order. Spinskins reduce the number of flats, but they are pricey. Marathon Plus definitely reduce flats, but they nevertheless can be defeated by thorns - and they are heavy. Tire savers don't work if your tire even has a slight tread. No free lunch.
Schwalbe Durano Plus are available in 622-23.
Schwalbe Durano Plus are available in 622-23.
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Mr Tuffy's are tricky to install without destroying your tube in short order. Spinskins reduce the number of flats, but they are pricey. Marathon Plus definitely reduce flats, but they nevertheless can be defeated by thorns - and they are heavy. Tire savers don't work if your tire even has a slight tread. No free lunch.
Schwalbe Durano Plus are available in 622-23.
Schwalbe Durano Plus are available in 622-23.
My bike company told me the same--that the liner would eventually wear out the tube, but if I can get 1500 or so miles out of a tube, heck, that sure beats getting flat after flat. I'll willingly buy new tubes just for the convenience of not having to stop and fix another flat. But I'm lazy that way, YMMV.
#11
Senior Member
The fact that the OP is running 700X23 Vittoria Diamante Pros at 220 grams makes me think he wants a performance tire. The Marathon plus is about as far from that as you can get. It looks like 700x25 is as narrow as the MP comes and it not only weighs a whopping 580 grams, but has a very stiff sidewall that makes for a very "un-lively" ride. The ride was bad enough that I took them off after a few hundred miles. That said, some folks don't seem to mind.
So, if the OP decides on different tires something like the ultragatorskin might be more suitable.
I have no comments on the idea of liners, since I have never used them.
Nobody asked, but I will also say that I do not especially recommend heavy duty tubes and even less so for slime tubes. I have found that for me both of those have more negative impact on performance than positive impact on robustness.
So, if the OP decides on different tires something like the ultragatorskin might be more suitable.
I have no comments on the idea of liners, since I have never used them.
Nobody asked, but I will also say that I do not especially recommend heavy duty tubes and even less so for slime tubes. I have found that for me both of those have more negative impact on performance than positive impact on robustness.
#12
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I live in goat-head thorn country. It is quite possible to get a 10 punctures per tire in the space of 10 feet of riding if you hit a mess of those thorns. I use a combination of a tire with a builtin-in kelvar lining (schwalbe marathon extreme 57-559 or dureme 50-559), plus Stan's sealant inside the tubes. My tubes have scrader-valves, but I think you can get presta tubes with a removable valve cores, which you really need in order to use Stans. Stans recommeds 60g (2 oz) of sealant per tube, but that is for mountain bikes. If you are running narrow road tires, you might be able to use as little as 30g per tire. However, I am not sure if Stan's will work on very high pressure narrow tires.
There is no reason for tire liners if the tire itself has a Kelvar lining.
My own tests with Stan's involved using a sewing machine needle held in a pair of pliers and puncturing my tire 8 times on the rolling surface and 2 times on the sidewalls, while spinning to tire to make the sealant circulate, then waiting two hours to test for slow leaks, then repeating the test and waiting overnight to test for slow leaks. Stan's passed this test with flying colors. Pressure went from the original 45psi to 40psi, but I think most of that was because I hadn't yet figured out how to apply the pressure gauge without letting some air slip out. By contrast, Slime failed the test, even when I only punctured the rolling surface rather than the sidewalls, and even when I allowed the Slime plenty of time to "cure" or whatever it does to make a seal.
I think you should consider the trade-off between the time you gain by rolling fast on narrow lightweight tires, and the pleasure from rolling fast, versus the time you lose by fixing flats and the displeasure of sitting at the side of the road fixing flats. By not insisting on rolling fast, you have the option of either heavyweight Marathon Plus tires, or wider and lower-pressure tires that will work with Stan's sealant inside. Either of these options should drastically reduce your puncture flats.
There is no reason for tire liners if the tire itself has a Kelvar lining.
My own tests with Stan's involved using a sewing machine needle held in a pair of pliers and puncturing my tire 8 times on the rolling surface and 2 times on the sidewalls, while spinning to tire to make the sealant circulate, then waiting two hours to test for slow leaks, then repeating the test and waiting overnight to test for slow leaks. Stan's passed this test with flying colors. Pressure went from the original 45psi to 40psi, but I think most of that was because I hadn't yet figured out how to apply the pressure gauge without letting some air slip out. By contrast, Slime failed the test, even when I only punctured the rolling surface rather than the sidewalls, and even when I allowed the Slime plenty of time to "cure" or whatever it does to make a seal.
I think you should consider the trade-off between the time you gain by rolling fast on narrow lightweight tires, and the pleasure from rolling fast, versus the time you lose by fixing flats and the displeasure of sitting at the side of the road fixing flats. By not insisting on rolling fast, you have the option of either heavyweight Marathon Plus tires, or wider and lower-pressure tires that will work with Stan's sealant inside. Either of these options should drastically reduce your puncture flats.
#13
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The fact that the OP is running 700X23 Vittoria Diamante Pros at 220 grams makes me think he wants a performance tire. The Marathon plus is about as far from that as you can get. It looks like 700x25 is as narrow as the MP comes and it not only weighs a whopping 580 grams, but has a very stiff sidewall that makes for a very "un-lively" ride. The ride was bad enough that I took them off after a few hundred miles. That said, some folks don't seem to mind.
So, if the OP decides on different tires something like the ultragatorskin might be more suitable.
I have no comments on the idea of liners, since I have never used them.
Nobody asked, but I will also say that I do not especially recommend heavy duty tubes and even less so for slime tubes. I have found that for me both of those have more negative impact on performance than positive impact on robustness.
So, if the OP decides on different tires something like the ultragatorskin might be more suitable.
I have no comments on the idea of liners, since I have never used them.
Nobody asked, but I will also say that I do not especially recommend heavy duty tubes and even less so for slime tubes. I have found that for me both of those have more negative impact on performance than positive impact on robustness.
Also, I was just recommended the Vittoria Rubino Pro III's at my LBS. Cause I mentioned that I do own a set of Rubinos, and only had one flat (because I forgot to file the valve opening inside the wheel) But I didn't like the traction or cornering with them. I had a few wipe outs. The Rubino Pro III supposedly improves on that.
I just got done comparing the 3 bikes at home. One bike with Micheline (approx 400 miles) no wear. Rubinos (approx. 2150 miles) little wear. Diamante Pros (approx 1250 miles) HOLY crap, terrible in contrast! Holes that you can see 6' away.
Also, how is the cornering with the Gatorskins in wet or damp conditions?
#15
Senior Member
Edit: To be clear that last comment is based on my experience with the ultra gatorskin. I expect the gatorskin to be similar but have not yet used it so I really can't say for sure.
Last edited by staehpj1; 07-16-11 at 05:59 PM.
#16
This question would be better answered by the commuting forums. We deal mostly with tires in the 400 gram and above range here.
The Schwalbe Marathon Supreme comes in 28mm at 310g per tire. The 35mm version of this tire lasted me through 4000km of loaded touring on the rear wheel, so it's more than durable enough for commuting. Its weakness is the thin sidewall. At around 3500km I experienced a blowout while riding on gravel, the result of a sidewall cut. I sewed cut together, booted it, and rode the tire another 500km until it received a similar cut in the tread. A similar repair was deemed unsafe for the massive descents I was doing on a regular basis at that time, and I gave the tire to a farmer in a hut at the side of the road.
The Vittoria Rubino Pro is a great tire. I've been using the same set on and off for three years now, including 900km of loaded touring around Lake Ontario. They probably have 2000km total on them and are still going strong, and have had very few flats. They're light and cheap as well. I never experienced the cornering problems you describe.
The Schwalbe Marathon Supreme comes in 28mm at 310g per tire. The 35mm version of this tire lasted me through 4000km of loaded touring on the rear wheel, so it's more than durable enough for commuting. Its weakness is the thin sidewall. At around 3500km I experienced a blowout while riding on gravel, the result of a sidewall cut. I sewed cut together, booted it, and rode the tire another 500km until it received a similar cut in the tread. A similar repair was deemed unsafe for the massive descents I was doing on a regular basis at that time, and I gave the tire to a farmer in a hut at the side of the road.
The Vittoria Rubino Pro is a great tire. I've been using the same set on and off for three years now, including 900km of loaded touring around Lake Ontario. They probably have 2000km total on them and are still going strong, and have had very few flats. They're light and cheap as well. I never experienced the cornering problems you describe.
#17
Senior Member
I don't know that to be true. Lot's of folks here use 28mm ultra gatorskins that are well under 400 grams. Some even use 25mm tires that are lighter than the gatorskins.
#18
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It seems that the GP4000S are a noticeably better than the Gatorskins in speed, but just a little more wear.
I am thinking it might be a good idea to get one of each. Use the GP4000S for the rear.
This question would be better answered by the commuting forums. We deal mostly with tires in the 400 gram and above range here.
The Schwalbe Marathon Supreme comes in 28mm at 310g per tire. The 35mm version of this tire lasted me through 4000km of loaded touring on the rear wheel, so it's more than durable enough for commuting. Its weakness is the thin sidewall. At around 3500km I experienced a blowout while riding on gravel, the result of a sidewall cut. I sewed cut together, booted it, and rode the tire another 500km until it received a similar cut in the tread. A similar repair was deemed unsafe for the massive descents I was doing on a regular basis at that time, and I gave the tire to a farmer in a hut at the side of the road.
The Vittoria Rubino Pro is a great tire. I've been using the same set on and off for three years now, including 900km of loaded touring around Lake Ontario. They probably have 2000km total on them and are still going strong, and have had very few flats. They're light and cheap as well. I never experienced the cornering problems you describe.
The Schwalbe Marathon Supreme comes in 28mm at 310g per tire. The 35mm version of this tire lasted me through 4000km of loaded touring on the rear wheel, so it's more than durable enough for commuting. Its weakness is the thin sidewall. At around 3500km I experienced a blowout while riding on gravel, the result of a sidewall cut. I sewed cut together, booted it, and rode the tire another 500km until it received a similar cut in the tread. A similar repair was deemed unsafe for the massive descents I was doing on a regular basis at that time, and I gave the tire to a farmer in a hut at the side of the road.
The Vittoria Rubino Pro is a great tire. I've been using the same set on and off for three years now, including 900km of loaded touring around Lake Ontario. They probably have 2000km total on them and are still going strong, and have had very few flats. They're light and cheap as well. I never experienced the cornering problems you describe.
My girl friend told me that she is sick of seeing me repair flats. That she wants to buy me a new set of tires. How awesome is she!
#19
I've put 2000 miles on Conti Grand Prix 4 Seasons (28c) without any flats, and mostly replaced them as a preventative measure. I think I'm on 1000 miles on the Conti GP4000s 24's I mentioned, no flats yet.
Something to keep in mind, if you are riding at 15mph or less you can use wider tires, up to 25c's, without taking a performance hit. If you're comparing a 23 and 25 of the same tire, the 25 will be slightly less aero (which doesn't matter at 15mph or less) and have slightly better rolling resistance (which improves performance at these slower speeds).
#20
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I would check to see if your tire is also offered with Kelvar wrapping. They're almost twice the cost, but, in my opinion, well worth it. They don't add weight to your wheel like tuffys do, you don't have to worry about tuffys wearing a hole in your tube,(and they do, I've used them), and unless you are riding in thorn country, you'll enjoy far fewer flats. The tread on my kelvar tires is almost worn bald now, and I haven't had a flat with them.
#21
Banned
Triple thick Thorn Resistant Heavy duty inner tubes are another approach..
Rode from Southern Ireland. to the Larne Ferry to Northern Scotland ,
without flat from a puncture. mine a 700c 37 wheel set..
Rode from Southern Ireland. to the Larne Ferry to Northern Scotland ,
without flat from a puncture. mine a 700c 37 wheel set..
#22
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Mr. Tuffy's will eventually wear a hole in your tube where the two ends overlap. However, in over 15,000 commuter miles using My. Tuffy's I only had one flat, and it was caused by the Tuffy itself. After this one occurrence, and at my convenience, I'd occasionally rotate the tube in relation to the Tuffy overlap. Never had another problem. Talcum powder helps also.
#23
I've been reading up on the GP4000S and the Gatorskins. Are the GP4000S's just as durable? If not how much?
It seems that the GP4000S are a noticeably better than the Gatorskins in speed, but just a little more wear.
I am thinking it might be a good idea to get one of each. Use the GP4000S for the rear.
It seems that the GP4000S are a noticeably better than the Gatorskins in speed, but just a little more wear.
I am thinking it might be a good idea to get one of each. Use the GP4000S for the rear.
#24
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I can get the Continental Grand Prix 4 Season for $65, seems to be the cheapest I can find. Just $5 more than the GP4000s, I will get one of those for the rear. And a Gatorskin for the front.
FWIW, I live in the NW, so it rains here a lot and I am a all year rider.
I might as well try riding 23's in the front and 25's in the rear.
FWIW, I live in the NW, so it rains here a lot and I am a all year rider.
I might as well try riding 23's in the front and 25's in the rear.
Last edited by ben4345; 07-18-11 at 07:37 PM.
#25
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I think your doing it backward.
I'm in Seattle, and in the rain I put a GP 4 Seasons on the front and the Gatorskin on the rear. The 4 Seasons is softer rubber so it grips well on wet roads but will wear very quickly on the rear. I also sometimes do one size wider tire on the front for more grip on uneven pavement and comfort for your hands. You can recover a slip on the rear wheel but your going to eat pavement if your front slips.
I'm in Seattle, and in the rain I put a GP 4 Seasons on the front and the Gatorskin on the rear. The 4 Seasons is softer rubber so it grips well on wet roads but will wear very quickly on the rear. I also sometimes do one size wider tire on the front for more grip on uneven pavement and comfort for your hands. You can recover a slip on the rear wheel but your going to eat pavement if your front slips.