electrik

Well they're all using platform pedals! I know your hip/butt hits first(depending on terrain, angle of fall)but your shoulder and head will hit pretty darn hard also. If you look at the video there is one person who make the corner and a few who are left standing up. The people who land the hardest are those who ride the bike into the ground(i.e. do nothing) which is what happens when you stayed clipped in. Some of them tripod around. There is even a gentleman in there who does what i would like todo which is ditch the bicycle down and put both feet down in a sorta jump. He is left standing i will add!

My tablecloth analogy was only to illustrate the differences between pedals. If your glassware is "clipped" into the tablecloth then it's all going flying when you pull that cloth. If the glassware is sitting lose held only by it's weight there is a better chance the glassware will stay vertical when the tablecloth is ripped out from under it. Of course it is only an analogy, but the effect is similar on ice.

Juha

I have to admit, I didn't read through the great tuck & roll debate, so apologies if any of this has been posted already.

My main gripes with clipless in winter are, 1st the cleat is a great heat sink in really cold weather. I cannot use my normal summer SPD shoes anyhow, because there's not enough room for added socks/insoles. I have proper winter boots for that, and I'm not going to put cleats on those. Besides, a mechanical problem that you'd be able to fix in 5 minutes in summer may force you to walk the bike in winter. Better have shoes that actually make that possible.

2nd, I've fallen once while clipped in (the good ole "forgot to unclip at red light" incident). The worst part of it was, it's extremely difficult to get up again when you're lying on the ground still clipped in. And this was in summer, I'd think it's even worse in winter. I'd rather have my bike under the bus than the bike plus my still-clipped-in self.

In my experience studded tyres help a lot on black ice. I have been able to recover small front brake lockups on ice with studded tyres. Lots of luck is usually involved (front tyre pointing straight forward and/or no pressing need to stop right there), I just let go of the front brake, but I know I would crash more if it weren't for the studs. That, or ride a lot slower.

--J

ThermionicScott 

I feel bad saying this, but that video made me lol.

alan s 

Instinct takes over, and you can save yourself from falling if you are not clipped in. However, it is extremely hard to unclip when you are already falling, and you will certainly go down if clipped in. Personally, I feel safer riding on platforms with studded tires, so even if I fall, at least my ride up to that point was less stressful than riding clipped in.

alan s 

Me too, except for the small child on the back of the bike in the beginning of the clip. Who would take their kid out riding in those conditions?

cyccommute 

The cleat being a heat sink is easy to fix. Insulate it. I use inserts that are insulated and tape the cleat hole closed with aluminum furnace tape. It makes the shoes warm and dry.

I also were shoes that are at least one size larger to accommodate thicker socks. I also were shoe covers to insulate my feet.

cyccommute 

Instinct taking over is when you get hurt. Instinct says throw your hand out to catch yourself when you fall. It's not a good idea. Instinct says brace yourself, i.e. tense up, for the impact. Being tense is a way of getting hurt.

Look at the video again. People who saved themselves by throwing out a leg didn't really save anything. Several of them suffered bad impacts to their knees as well as wrenching their legs (look at what happened to the person at around 59 sec or 1:16). They still crashed. One poor woman (30 sec) even threw her leg out, kept herself from falling over on the low side but went over...hard...on the high side.

cyccommute 

Exactly my point about studded tires. For those that need them, get them. But in 30+ years of commuting all year 'round and thousands of trips, I've never found more than a few days when they would be useful in the Denver area.

cyccommute 

No I think pkpyro's black ice is glare ice or freezing drizzle. It's the same kind of ice you see in the video that Rob3 posted and in the first video link I provided. It's the kind of ice that makes the world look like a glazed donut.

Bekologist

mmmm...donuts.

Rob3

You are right there, last winter I had studded tires and did fall down only one time because a low-powered motorcycle from the opposite direction crashed into my front wheel. These 'perfect' black-ice conditions like on the video where quite common here in the last 2 winters. My commute has a lot separate cycle tracks so I can't complain too much and I just keep on cycling.

pkpyro

OP (me) lives in Vancouver, BC. Not a crapload of ice / snow here. Studded tires ($50 / wheel, cheapest I can find in town) is hard on a student budget and might not be worth it considering that it's not habitually black iced over.

I have yet to see anyone actually rag doll themselves when they go down. I've seen a roadie rider tense up as much as he could because he pedal struck and was still clipped in.

I MTB, and I've NEVER seen someone go down with the bike. First thing you do when you realize you're not in control of the bike is to push it away from you. The only time where you might have someone hold on to the bike even after he or she's fallen off is if he or she deems it safer to grab the brakes on the bike to slow down to avoid a bigger crash.

I posted originally to help out people struggling with black ice or to remind those who have not had black ice this year so far. I didn't post to spice up an argument about what's better. Do what you feel is best and convince thoroughly and with civilized manner if you must convince. I'm thinking of foregoing some food to save up for winter tires if the winter gets worse, because so many have said that studded tires are the bomb.

Please, we're all riders here, let's not turn against each other.

mander

Hey OP. I live in Van too, after smashing my chin and chipping eight teeth on black ice in Burnaby (freezing marine fog) I am in the market for studded tires. I might go with just the front wheel. What shops were you looking for tires at?

Burnaby seems especially bad for black ice. I come into Vancouver in the morning from Port Moody along the Barnet Highway and then Adanac. things always seem to go sideways when i get up to the top of the hill in Kensington.

ps lol great thread

rumrunn6

studs rule

Stealthammer

I agree with most of what has been stated here, but after several dozen years commuting in East coast, West coast, Midwest, and Mountain conditions I have developed a fairly simple strategy that has kept me upright and in control of my bike in even the worst conditions.

First, if you are putting studs on your tires, put studs on your shoes.....
I wear clipless pedals whenever I ride and I feel that having the ability to control the attitude of the bike through the solid connection gives me an advantage in staying upright (although I do back off the release tension a bit in winter). I can relate to your experience though cyccommute, which is why I add 10 #7 slotted hex-head sheetmetal screws to the bottom of each of my Bontrager MTB shoe for winter ( I have couple other pairs of Sidis that I use when there is no ice). These shoes work like Nokian 294 Extremes for your feet on ice, but you do have to take caution when walking on tiled floors.

BTW: These are 1/2 size larger than my other shoes to accomodate wool and polypropolene socks.



Second, choose the right tires so that you are not tempted to switch to non-studded tires, just before you need the studs.
+1
Nokian Mount & Grounds or Marathon Winters have very little more rolling resistance than a standard MTB tire when fully inflated and traveling in a straight line (but they can slide around a bit in corners). They also work quite well off-road for non-icy conditions so there is really no need to swap them out between storms. Nokian 294 Extremes are for seriously harsh conditions that even more seasoned winter riders will not ride in, or for off-road use primarily, and they are probably overkill for most rider's needs due to high rolling resistance. This is why many riders swap them out for standard MTB wheels as soon as the ice melts, and then they get caught riding home on plain rubber when a storm surprises them. I do have a separate set of wheels with Nokian 204 Extremes, but I only use them when the Mount & Grounds just won't cut it.


Third, consider wearing some basic DH MTB protective gear under you winter outer wear. Elbow pads, or a jersey with built-in elbow pads, a pair of DH shorts with hip pads, a pair of knee/shin pads, and a properly padded pair of DH gloves will make an amazing difference in how you feel when you get up from a crash if you have one.

Stealthammer

I don't believe any of the riders in cyccommute's videos was on studded tires, and certainly not on Extremes. A very biased attempt to prove a nonsense position..... There is no down-side to having studs in snow, and you won't know that you need studs until you are headed for the ground, and that's a bit late to change the tires.

rumrunn6

+1 on those studded bike shoes! nicely done sir!

Rob3

I also had that idea to put spikes in my cycling shoes, I think it will work good.
I saw them in a shop where you can repair your shoes.
Currently I use continental top contact II winter tires and they are great in rolling resistance, but I have yet to put them to the test as this winter I had only one morning where the there roads were a bit icy.
I think the winter is cancelled here as it's currently above 10C and yesterday on the thermometer hanging outside in the sun it was 20C

cyclocommuter

I have Top Contact Winter II's on my commuter right now and while they are excellent on wet conditions and better than other non-studded tires when rolling through small patches of ice so long as you keep the bike steady and straight, they will still slip when the road is covered with long stretches of black ice. I tested them in a park nearby on black ice formed by water runoff. If you are faced with conditions where these long stretches of black ice form on the roads early in the morning before sunrise, it is still safer to use studded tires. I have a pair of Schwalbe studded tires arriving soon. I wouldn't want to take the risk of crashing because my tires slipped on black ice then get run over by vehicles behind me. I ride on busy streets in the suburbs while headed to the city. On at least some stretches of roads I negotiate, I always see ice forming where water runs off from the gutter/sidewalk and also in front of construction areas where the water/mud is splashed to the streets by tires of trucks which then becomes ice at night and is still solid ice early in the morning.