rhm

Yeah, something like that, I'm guessing. I don't know much about Herc's, but I'm guessing the situation there is similar to the situation at Norman, a company with a similar history. From what I've been able to figure out about Norman bikes, only a relatively small proportion of the bikes made actually got the characteristic chain ring, and those are the ordinary 3-sp ones from the early 50's. All the earlier and later bikes that I've seen (only in photos) had plain chain rings. Even when the characteristic Norman cranks were available, bikes at the higher end of the product line came with plain (but higher quality) cranks.

Andrew F

Hello all. I bought the Hercules you have been discussing for $75. It's pretty cool: brass oilers on the hubs and BB, nice oval cutouts on the lugs, the hub is a Herc Type A 3 speed, the brakes appear to be nickle, the rims and tires are Dunlop, the valves are brass ( the tires read " inflate to hard"). We did and they hold air. I did some research and found the Chainring on a Hercules Harrier club bike from 1934 and a '58, but this bike is badged "Renown". see the attachment. I'm hopping to establish a estimated date and configuration so I can restore it. An ideas are welcome.

Mos6502

Well a lot more pictures would really help.

rhm

Andrew, I'm glad you got the bike. I thought it sounded interesting, and that headbadge makes it more so. Are the tires 26 x 1 3/8, or 26 x 1 1/4?

Andrew F

The tires are 1 3/8 and are unridden, thought the rear brake pads have been replaced and the front shows lots of wear, so the tires are not original, just old and matching. The geometry of the frame is very slack, maybe 68 degrees or so. I've attached a few more pix to the early post

Andrew F

https://thecabe.com/vbulletin/attachm...1&d=1266024153

Sorry, here is the pic. I need to reduce the fomat of my pics. and learn how to post them.

lecky

FWIW I have a Hercules with a Sturmey Archer K6 (1936) with top tube quadrant shifter which looks quite original to the bike, so whilst many Hercules had their own hubs, it is very likely there were some with SA hubs.
I need to sort that bike out - the hub is ceased, which is a worry.

Andrew F

Lecky,

Do you know Hercules developed their own Hubs?

lecky

Yes Andrew, I know - I'm just adding that it may be that either they didn't just use their own hubs, or their own hubs were used from some point after 1936. Of course it's possible that the K6 is non original on my Hercules.

clubman 

I think that's a fairly accurate statement about the cranks. I have a mid quality Hercules club bike from the early 50's with the somewhat rare 3 speed Herailleur and Synchro shifter which first appeared in 1949. It has the plain and unadorned chainring. I also once owned a plain jane 3 speed sporting the fancy crankset.

David Newton

You look at the best catalogs Hercules put out, with all the color illustrations, most of those bike showed the regular spoked chain ring.
I have one of the ''H" chain rings, but it came on a very low spec bike, so the idea that only the highest quality bike got the "logo" parts is false, in a sense.

Andrew F

Lecky,

Sorry for the misunderstanding!!! I really didn't know when they started using the Herc. Hubs. Didn't mean to offend, please accept my apology!! I gather they began in '36? I assumed most of the older bikes would have had the SA Hubs. I found a number on the seat post lug, LY 859 5 does this offer any clue to it's vintage?

rhm

But remember, catalogs came from the marketing department (for lack of a better term), while the bikes came from a factory; and in many cases the catalogs came out before the bikes did. The catalogs are more prescriptive then descriptive, if you see what I mean.

Again, knowing nothing about Hercules, I can tell you something about Normans that is, I think, applicable.
My 1950 Norman 3 speed has no model name on it; just says "Norman" and "Norman of England" &c all over it. It has the fancy chain ring with five Norman soldier spokes. I also have the Norman product brochure for that model year. In the brochure, the bike like mine is clearly labeled "Norman Tourist Model", and those words appear on the seat tube of the bike pictured. The bike pictured is just like mine, even the color is listed (burgundy with gold lining); but the bike pictured has a plain chain ring. Elsewhere in the brochure are pictures of the fancy Norman components, including hubs and pedals marked "Norman of England" and a crank on which the chain ring has the little Norman soldiers, but six of 'em. Six! I've never seen a chain ring like that, and frankly doubt it ever existed; it's an artist's rendition of something s/he'd never seen.

Andrew F

I've looked a several adverts from the 30's-50's and there is no mention of a Renown. I did find a '39 Phillips Club bike on CL that is listed as all original, it has identical rims and the brakes look simular. It's hard to imagine that with all the Hercs still out there, no one has heard of this model. I e-mailed a Velo collector in Munich today, perhaps he may be have some knowledge of the model?

lecky

Hi Andrew - no need to apologise - rather I wrote a reply in a that could read as offended, and my apology for that! Was not offended at all.

I'm enjoying learning about Hercules bikes...

David Newton

This is from left field... are you sure it is built in England?
India made Hercules are patterned exactly after the English-made but had many odd-ball names.
The frame build "values" in hand should make it obvious though, but not in a tiny photo as we have seen here.

rhm

The fact that the model name is on the badge tells us something, probably that it's a pretty old bike. Once upon a time manufacturers had head badges unique to each model, but over time most manufacturers settled on one head badge design. So my 1940 Schwinn has "New World" badge, and other bikes from the same factory had "Superior" or other badges.

I haven't been able to see your pictures, by the way. The link took me to a login screen for The Cabe, where I'm not a member.

Where was the '39 Phillips Club bike on CL? That sounds interesting!

Andrew F

Here are some better sized pix. The badge reads Birmingham England. I don't think the bars, saddle and seatpost are original, but everything else seems to be. The pix of the Phillips Club bike from CL are on oldroads.com vintage roadsters forum. After a careful examination, the plain chain ring seems to be of a high quality, and the fact that the name is Renown seems to infer they have already established their reputation, post 20's? I'd like to find out when they developed their own hubs, that would help narrow things down a bit. I'm thinking this is a late 30's early 40's vinatage bicycle?

rhm

The handlebars have been flipped to make for a racier ride; hard to say whether they're original.

I'm sure the chain ring is well made, but its not at the upper end of the quality range; the single chain ring swaged to the arm indicates a bottom end chainset. Bbetter chainsets had removable rings attached to a swaged-on spider, and the best ones had the drive side crank arm forged together with the spider.

I wouldn't put much stock in the name "renown." It's just a name. Love that head badge, though!

Andrew, does this bike fit you? Are you riding it? And where? We should get a bunch of guys together for a "clubman" style ride-- basically three speeds with drop bars. When the weather improves, that is.

David Newton

The smashed fork ends point to a lower end model. It will make a great rider.
I've made mine one of those path-racer look-likes, with a single speed freewheel and a front brake. That old laid back geometry is so great.

Andrew F

I should have clarified my comment regarding "quality". I understand Hercules began and built their reputation on a well made and inexpensive rides. From that perspective the plain chainring is of a better quality than the 'H' and 'HERCULES' types I have seen. I don't think the bike was a purpose built Pathracer, but I did notice the same chainring on their '36 Harrier model which came with drop bars etc. making it look atleast look like a Club bike in their advert.

The frame is just a bit too small at 21", I've ridden around the block, it's a blast, I love the geomety of the frame! , I'm going to clean it up for my son.

I'd love to do a Clubman style ride! I have a '64 Raleigh Sport configured in the Club traditon that I ride. I'm in Central NJ just outside of Staten Island. I'd love to get a ""Clubman" style ride together once the weather warms. Can we finish at a Pub?

clubman 

Here's my early 50's Herc...similar colour scheme? Same cut out lugs and chainset. Came with EA1 wheels and 3 speed derailleur, fenders, same stem with drop bars. Standard Hercules badge.

Andrew F

Same Chainring, paint scheme is a little different, mine has remanents of pinstrip rectangles on the tubes. Does your frame have an oiler on the left side of the BB, if so how is it capped? They both have the same drop out configuration, pehaps that was standard or particular to deraillieur equiped models? Also I noticed your has a braze-on for the pump, mine has no braze-on's. Thanks for the post, let me know about the oiler please.

lecky

There's a Hercules on Ebay (UK) now with the same chainring and what is purported to be a '30's three speed derailleur with a pretty top tube shifter (trevelox) and those characteristic Hercules lugs. Components painted black, and marks of black paint on chrome are likely to have been a WWII blackout precaution. So I guess there are features, such as that chainring that ran through many years.

clubman 

It's serial number is XD13231. (seat lug, left side) There's a flip top oiler (nickel plate?) on the bottom left side. I forgot that it was called a Falcon. Hercs top racer of the day was the Kestrel so this fits with the theme.This is not that level of bike. I believe Herecules used Accles and Pollack tubes back in the day and were pinned and lugged. The lugwork is crude but clean enough. I've seen a 1930-ish Herc racer with track ends and braze on for a Cyclo 3 speed derailleur fore of the axle. The angles were much slacker as well. This Falcon and it's "Herailleur/Synchro" gear is rare. I once read it's the first indexed derailleur ever made...can anyone with The Dancing Chain confirm that? By the time it came out, cyclo had a 4 speed Benelux on the market and that was the end of further gear development. As noted earlier, most "racers" came equipped with Herc and SA hub gears.