ianbrettcooper

The problem is, as long as some cyclists are behaving like particularly immature 6 year-olds, we're not. We can only be in this together if we all act for the best interests of cyclists. When we don't, we may as well be one of those idiots in a truck yelling "Get off my road!"

There are some cyclists who are actively trying to destroy cycling. They are certainly not in this with me, and I hope they don't speak for anyone else here.

genec

It can... my motivation is to ride a bicycle well... others may not be so motivated... and thus may do things on a bicycle that are dangerous and stupid and give others motivation to curtail cycling.

This is not exclusive to cycling... it happens in other areas of life too. In San Diego, a "booze ban" has been enacted on the local beaches as some folks displayed very bad behavior when drinking. These people were a tiny minority of all the people who did drink on the beach, but that tiny group managed to influence a larger population as a whole into enacting laws that prohibited the use of alcohol for everyone.

While indeed those folks riding a bicycle may be called "cyclists," in as much as you might call me a "musician" (in spite of my utter lacks of musical skills), those "persons on a bicycle" can "ruin it for the rest of us" in a similar fashion as the rowdy drinkers of the beach going sect.

genec

No... apparently I am a musician... I've picked up a violin before and made it squeak.

genec

Apparently there are enough "bad drivers caught on tape" that television shows have been made of them... just google "bad drivers caught on tape" and check out a few of the 249,000 "results." Bear in mind that each "result" shows several bad drivers or sites of loads of bad drivers "caught on tape."

genec

Really? People calling themselves "cyclists" actually actively trying to destroy cycling?

ianbrettcooper

Yes. The guy in the link for one. I'm sure he thinks he's a cyclist. Judging by his attitude he probably thinks he's an expert cyclist. But his activities and his attitude can only result in cycling being marginalized or criminalized.

mikeybikes

We'll have to agree to disagree on this I guess...

The longer we create a divide by cyclists and other people who ride bikes, the longer we continue this air of elitism. There are very few folks who would ride a bicycle to actively destroy the advocacy of bicycles.

We struggle to convince people who never ride a bike that we deserve to be on the road. People are going to be less willing to be sympathetic for our concerns if we continue to act elite and continue to separate expert cyclists from the people who go out on weekends or from the kids on BMXs.

We should be encouraging proper cycling from a young age with education. Not dismissing cyclists as "one of us" because they don't have the same motivations as us.

High Roller

The issue is not "elite" vs. non-"elite". The issue is a subset of bicycle riders exhibiting antisocial behavior that could motivate the non-cycling majority, who outnumber us 200 to 1, to enact sanctions that will deprive us of equal rights to the road, just like in genec's drinking-on-the-beach example.

Let's stop using the word "elite" to describe a bicyclist who follows the rules of the road and respects the rights of others to do likewise. The guys riding around in France a couple months ago are "elite". I'm just a regular person trying to get around on two wheels who doesn't want his freedom threatened by irresponsible, self-absorbed idiots.

ianbrettcooper

I argue that 'we' are not elitists creating a divide. The idiots who ride illegally and unsafely are creating the divide. I'm just pointing out that it exists - that is hardly elitist. It's not a good thing to try to ignore bad behaviour and just pretend that bicycle riders are one big happy family. Like every other group, we have good and bad elements mixed together. Just as society cannot exist without attempting to stifle harmful behaviour, so bicycle society cannot exist without doing the same.

I agree that we struggle to convince people who never ride a bike that we deserve to be on the road. But pretending that bad behaviour shouldn't be criticized is not a way to attract more cyclists. On the contrary, it will drive people away. Most of the reason people who don't ride bikes believe that we don't belong is that they see, all too often, bozo cyclists riding against traffic, running red lights, riding at 10mph on busy sidewalks, etc. Such cyclists indeed do not belong on the road. They should either learn to ride properly or quit cycling and sell their bikes to people who will act responsibly.

This is not about 'different motivations'. It's about a lack of healthy behaviour and a lack of mutual respect on the part of many cyclists who choose to act irresponsibly simply because they can. Chaos is not a foundation for growth - it's a recipe for disaster.

And I say 'Hear here!' to High Roller's post above. He says it better than I do. This is about the health of our cycling society and whether it will thrive or wither. This is not about elitism.

apricissimus 

It takes much less skill to ride a bicycle than it does to play an instrument competently.

So yeah, almost anyone can hop on a bike and be a cyclist.

genec

Yeah but he is not actively trying to destroy cycling... it is just something that he may happen to do.

genec

Hey more than anything, I just wanted to dispute you on the musician thing. I believe it takes more than just picking up an instrument and making some sound to be a "musician."

As far as cyclist... well I have to agree with you... cycling is an everyman thing. It really takes very little to learn how to bike... now learning how to bike well in traffic... well that's a different thing.

But if you can balance and make it go and stop, essentially you ARE a cyclist. To clarify, I think to be called a musician, you have to at least make a tune... not just noise. Let's hold the definition at that.

mikeybikes

Well, that's because you have to define what music is and that is purely subjective. A musician is someone who makes music. An instrumentalist would be someone who operates an instrument. Just like a cyclist is someone who operates a bicycle.

I know many trumpeters that would consider themselves a great trumpeter, but terrible musician.

Yes well, I sort of had to rethink what it took to be a musician as well and are inclined to agree with you.

trackhub

In answer to the OP's question, I'm not surprised. Last night, I saw two early teenaged males riding along Auburndale Ave In Newton, MA. They were:

-riding on the wrong side. I had to angle into the middle of the roadway to avoid them. Luckily, traffic was very light. Both stared at my and my headlight as though I were some sort of alien spacecraft.

-riding with no lights or reflective material of any type.

-Swerving and yelling.

In short, a "trifecta", if you like. How much of this type of thing do we all see, on a nearly daily basis?

A note here: Auburndale ave is a two lane road, not very wide, and quite curvy. While there is street lighting, some parts of the road are still quite dark at night. In other words, all it would have taken would be for a motorist to come around one of those curves, at the legal speed limit or below, and a tragedy would have ensued.

ianbrettcooper

I disagree. I mean 'actively' in the sense that he is going out and doing it - he is active in doing it. His 'action' rather than his inaction, is what's causing the problem. He may not believe he's doing it, but he most certainly is. Every one of his actions in the video are AGAINST cycling:

He rides against traffic.
He rides while reading!
He rides with one or no hands on the handlebars.
He rides in the door zone, which leads to...
He knocks over a pedestrian.
He doesn't accept responsibility.
He rides on the sidewalk.

None of these actions are good for cycling and anyone who sees him has one more piece of evidence showing why cyclists and cycling are bad.

Cyclists like this are against cycling. For a cyclist to be 'for' cycling, he/she must be an ambassador for it. You can't be for cycling if you make cycling look bad. It's as simple as that.

I wish this Philadelphia cyclist (Philadelphia - there's an irony - this guy exhibits no brotherly love) would either give up cycling altogether, or at least be inactive and just try to destroy cycling in a passive way - that way he'd be much less successful. The only person who saw this guy on that day who thought he was the good guy in the situation was probably the other idiot 'wrong-way' cyclist who asked if he was okay. It's not as if this guy is one bad apple - this is a systemic problem - a pandemic of morons who are trying to mess it up for the rest of us.

KD5NRH

Exactly; saying we're elitists for not accepting him is like saying environmentalists are elitist for wanting to distance themselves from the Discovery Channel hostage taker.

ianbrettcooper

Precisely. I live literally less than a mile from where that happened. Bringing my daughter back from school while the situation was ongoing was kinda freaky. At one point I was just two short blocks away.

Adrius

That's a pretty darn good analogy.

Regardless of terminology and whether or not the guy considers himself a cyclist, he still represents the rest of us to the public. Then again, the public shouldn't stereotype people either

I've encountered the no lights/reflective night riders before too. Scares the hell out of you at 45 miles an hour.

ianbrettcooper

Further thoughts:

I'm not saying everyone who has ridden a bike badly is 'against cycling'. Every cyclist rides badly occasionally. We've all, at one time or another, ridden on the sidewalk when it was clear or treated a stop sign as a yield sign when there are no cars around. Heck, I did the latter only yesterday, at least three times. I think some laws need to change to reflect cycling reality - 'Stop as yield' is one such example. Still, it's important for us to be aware that such activities are seen as bad by non-bike riders because they don't know why we do them - they don't know about how it's important to maintain our energy state or how coming to a complete stop can cause fatigue and/or balance issues that can, in some circumstances, make stopping unsafe. So when we do such things we still need to be mindful of when it's okay and when it's not. I mean let's face it - if we're at a stop light in the desert with no traffic for miles and no witnesses, is it really 'bad' to run it? I'd say no. Heck, everyone - drivers, cyclists, nuns, judges - does that. But when there are witnesses we need to be seen to be doing the right thing.

But there are many cases where cyclists routinely ignore road rules and treat pedestrians and even drivers with contempt. This abuse has to stop if we are to have any chance of getting cycling accepted as a mainstream activity.

High Roller

Excellent summary of this discussion.

Chalupa102

I can't account for the other college commuters, but I always go with the flow of traffic, stop at red lights and yield for peds in the crosswalks (which seems to surprise them when I stop so they can cross). I also go to a community college, so maybe that's what makes the difference.


There's a one-way road right by my college, and cars go the wrong way down it all the time. It used to be a two-way road well over a year ago, but still, there's signs everywhere telling cars to not enter, but they still do.

mikeybikes

You may not agree with the action of other people on bicycles, but they are every much of cyclists as you are. You may want to distance yourself from them, but the non-cycling public will not be able to distinguish us. They will lump us all together. So yes, the guy going the wrong way and hitting a ped is in fact a cyclist.

I'm sure everyone (including myself) who operates a car would like to separate themselves from the other car operators that do stupid mistakes, but unfortunately, they can't.

Chalupa102

Definitely well said.

genec

That sadly is indeed the truth. Probably why in my mind they AREN'T cyclists... but to the public, "anyone on a bike... " sigh...

ianbrettcooper

Oh no they're not! There are good cyclists and there are bad cyclists, just as there are good and bad people. I'm not going to let anyone lump me in with the likes of that Philadelphia idiot any more than I'm going to let anyone say that I'm the same as Jeffrey Dahmer or Ed Gein. I don't eat people and I don't cycle as part of some weird death wish.

Which is the very reason we have to distance ourselves from such idiots. The alternative is to say 'Yup, he's one of us'. I will not do that and I think it's a mistake for anyone else who loves cycling to do so.

No. He's an idiot who happens to use a bicycle to practice idiocy. It's not the same thing. If someone beats the crap out of someone with a baseball bat, that ain't 'baseball' and the guy with the bat is not a 'sportsman'.

Yes they can. All they have to do is say 'That guy is a freaking idiot'. The fact that some folks apparently win their licenses in packets of Cornflakes does not make them 'motorists'. It just makes them idiots who use a car to practice idiocy.

Any pursuit requires a certain level of competence and reverence for that pursuit. You may insist that a person who sits at a piano is a pianist, but if he's just banging on keys at random, it ain't a symphony.

Operating a bicycle is not necessarily 'cycling' and a person operating a bicycle is not necessarily a 'cyclist'. Abuse of a bicycle (which is what the guy in Philly was doing) is not 'cycling'.