Bogester 

Here's another 71 to compare/contrast. I just put new fenders on it yesterday and took it for a good long spin. Why I buy and ride other bikes I'll never know.

pastorbobnlnh 

Is the rake the distance between the center of the axle and the place where the fork would place the center of the axle if the fork were straight? So use a square to measure the distance?

Does this help show the difference on the rear brake bridge when a 27 inch wheel is shoved into a 700c space? Obviously I didn't need the drop bolt like I did on the '66 P-13.


Well Bike's P-13

well biked

Yes. The centerline of the headtube is the imaginary line you measure from, and you extend this line all the way down the fork. The offset, or rake, is the distance from this line to the center of the axle. I used a straight edge to establish the line coming out of the headtube down the fork, and a ruler to measure out to the center of the front axle. The line from the centerline to the axle should be horizontal (parallel with the ground).

pastorbobnlnh 

Just came up from the basement and measured just as I guessed and you mostly confirmed.

I used a carpenter's square so the centerline to the axle was at 90 degrees to the centerline of the fork and headtube. Does this make a difference? My P-13 fork appears to have the same rake, 1.5 inches.

well biked

I edited my earlier post and have now measured it for a third time, and even had a co-worker measure it to confirm. Keep in mind, it's hanging up and not easy to get to. But mine is definitely 2" of rake instead of the 1.5" I posted earlier. I made a mistake in reading the ruler earlier when I said it was 1.5"

I advise measuring yours again, using a fairly long straight edge to establish the line coming out of the centerline of the headtube, and then use a ruler to measure from that line to the center of the axle.

cudak888 

Near as I can figure it then, you have 2" rake, and Bob has 1.5," correct?

Strange thing, unless WB's frame has the earlier P13 blades - which would explain itself if it was made earlier than Bob's frame (unless the smaller frame was built with 2" rake for extra toe clearance, or someone simply borrowed the 2" blades when the 1.5's ran out). Well Biked, I cannot remember if yours is in the registry or not - what month is the build?

Bogester, could you measure your fork rake and post it here?


Bob, that photo is perfect. If I could have your permission to use it on The Headbadge, I'd appreciate it. Do you have a photo of the drop bolt setup you had on the '66?

Well Biked - if I could have your permission to use your photo, I'd be most grateful.

-Kurt

cudak888 

More annoyances - I just measured my '70 and '72. They may have different blade bends, but the rake is exactly the same: 2".



Back to square one. Bob, are you absolutely positive you measured your '71 correctly?

-Kurt

Scooper

The 1971 Paramount catalog says the P13-9 fork "has a 2" rake and is equipped with Campagnolo Gran Sport fork tips."

cudak888 

Isn't that statement is left over from the '60s literature, from when the Gran Sport fork tips were forged (before they were bumped up to Record status)?

This is what I know as a GS dropout:



-Kurt

well biked

I can't speak for Pastorbob, but my bike definitely has 2" of fork rake. Build date of frame/fork is April, 1971.

well biked

Yes, please use it; I'd be honored.

pastorbobnlnh 

I did remeasure using the methed well biked described and it came out to 2 inches. Sorry about the confusion.

Kurt, by all means, please use the photo. I'm honored as well.

cudak888 

Thanks, Bob - that puts my mind at ease. The geometries are the same; the rake different. Strange that Schwinn would go through the extra trouble of stocking extra fork blades.

Will keep you both informed on the site's progress.

-Kurt

ohjonnybegoode

If it helps, here's a pic of my '71....serial number H7184....

Scooper

Probably, although my point in quoting the '71 catalog was that it says the rake is 2". I suppose if the Gran Sport fork tips description is inaccurate, the fork rake might be too.

Bogester 

"Bogester, could you measure your fork rake and post it here?"


Using my less than perfect measuring techiques I get right around 2 inches. The bend looks more like your 72 than the 70.

cudak888 

Chris, could I ask of you get me a closeup of the crossover cable routing that you did at the back? I need an example of that for the Paramount pages I'm doing on The Headbadge - it explains why the later P13-9's went to cable clips.

-Kurt

well biked

I think we discussed when the rear brake cable clips began appearing on P13-9's in another thread, but both my P13-9 (April '71 serial #) and Pastorbob's red P13-9 (March '71 serial #) are earlier than ohjonnybegoode's bike (H7184 serial #), and our bikes (Pastorbob's and mine) have the clips while ohjonnybegoode's bike uses the braze-on guides. Just wanted to point out that when you say "later P13-9's went to cable clips" when referring to ohjonnybegoode's bike, that info's a little fuzzy during the 1971 model year apparently.

cudak888 

That brings up an interesting question (especially at the moment, for I'm writing the Paramount model hierarchy right now): Was the P10-9 available as early as 1971?

The Schwinn catalog doesn't list the P10-9 it until 1973, but the Schwinn catalog also fails to reflect the revised 1971 P13-9 until 1973. I realize the catalog pictures in Schwinn catalogs are usually a year behind (the GT300/LeTour RD hit the P15 in 1973, but it didn't show up in the catalogs until 1974), but the new P13-9 was definitely in existence early enough to have made the 1972 catalog.

Someone with a mid-'71 old-geometry frame ought to order a provenance report and bug the living daylights out of Richard Schwinn until we get a straight answer on when Schwinn started marking build sheets with "P10-9."

Another theory could be that ohjonnybegoode's frame was destined to be a P15-9 until someone stuck the wrong crankset on it.

-Kurt

cudak888 

P.S.: I finally wrapped up most of the new Paramount model ID page at The Headbadge. There's a new thread about it at this link:

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...7#post13590497

If you fellows would like to continue the geometry discussion there (and free Silvercreek of this massive thread hijack), feel free to do so.

-Kurt

silvercreek

What's up with all of the '71's? Is that the only model Paramount most of you have? There's lots of great information here and it will take a while for me to absorb all of it.

Right now I just want to get my '78 right. Right?

cudak888 

Take a look at the Registry. There are more 1973 Paramounts listed there than any other two years combined, but '72 and '71 give it a run for the money. These three years were the most popular for Paramounts, IIRC.

Your '78 is rather unusual - prices went up just as the Paramounts started to fall out of favor with the bike trends of the time.

-Kurt

repechage

Still yours? And I thought you auctioned that off as a frame set not too long ago.
Or did that not finalize?

ohjonnybegoode

Kurt...sending you a couple of snaps now...please let me know if these are along the lines of what you're looking for...thanks!

Sierra

I have a '71 also, but mine is a P15-9 tourer.

Please excuse the clumsy attempt to make it more like a P13. It will be returned to more how it should be when I can get to it.