BoSoxYacht

Thanks for your thoughts.

I'll likely end up with a 50-36 crankset, and use 11-23 as my primary cassette.

Most rides are flat, and if I need to use the little ring, 36t should be plenty.

KlingOn

6800 11-32 cassette only works with Campy if rear derailleur is extended to limit of lowest setting and then shifting isn't so great. It's clunkier than normal clunky Campy. Campy states the limit spec on 11 speed rear mech as 29. But I tried my Centaur 12-30 wheel as a fitting trial (10sp) and still had some space to play with in the rear mech adjustment, so I thought I could make the leap to 32. It can make it, but at the expense of shifting the other gears well. 11-28 cassette shifts flawlessly and is indistinguishable from a Campy cassette. I only purchased this hub (Powertap G3 Shimano 11) so that I could unify all my serious bikes with one meter. It's really not worth the effort on my part, as 34x32 is only marginally lower than 34x29. But it will allow me to sell my Campy SRM and free up some cash for fun things (i.e. mortgage payment.)

The Power Torque hate squad is so boring. Yes, PT sucks. So just buy a NOS Ultra Torque Athena crank on eBay.

I would never say that Centaur is "vastly superior to DA 7900," especially if you're running Power Shift like my newer Centaur. The older Centaur was Ultra Shift and Ultra Torque, and in that case, you might have a case. But that's antiquated now, and is relegated to the argument "my 7 year old computer is faster than your 7 year old computer."

halfspeed

It's a fair question. This place is full of opinions from people with strong opinions based on zero experience. If you want to say X is better, worse than, or the same as Y, then I expect you've got some experience with both or your opinion is crap.

I won't give you an opinion on Chorus vs. 6800 or 9000 because I've only ridden Chorus, Record, Athena, Centaur, various mixes of the same, 7900, 7800, 6700 and various older 105 and Tiagra groups. I'll have something to say about Ultegra Di2 at the end of March, but no sooner.

embankmentlb

Sorry,That is funny!!!

halfspeed

I wasn't asking you. You were asking a legitimate question, not expounding based on suspect experience.

BoSoxYacht

Thanks for clarifying.

RollCNY

If it's flat there, you could just get a single speed and save all the angst.

Carbon Unit

What makes it better?

rpenmanparker 

Well you got me. It sure is hard to fool you. I know nothing about nothing. In fact I don't even bicycle. I can't get the damn things to stay upright. I am just here to see what kind of trouble I can stir up. Downtalking Chorus is actually an Al Qaeda terrorist plot to which I am excitedly signing on. Whew! I sure am glad I got that off my chest. A real catharsis. You might even say purge. No, that is going too far. At my age that is too much to ask for.

halfspeed

Well, that post tells me everything I need to know.

Homebrew01

Hard to avoid, based on the thread title.

sced

Or even a cheaper group. You have to admit it won't matter one way or another.

Campag4life

Wrong on so many levels.
1. Derailleur capacity. Campy makes three different cage lengths. If opting to mount a 32-11 Shimano rear wheel/cassette with Athena RD, opt for the Athena triple RD which will have plenty of cage length for that very broad cassette. Shifting will be perfect. I have a mid cage in fact at 75mm and it shifts perfectly with 29-13t Campy 10s cassette.

2. Power Torque hate speak isn't boring. Its relevant if the OP is considering buying a PT crank and not because a puller is required to remove the left crank arm but rather the tapered spline and lack of solid shoulder is a poor design.

3. You would never say Centaur is superior to DA 7900 but unless you have lived with both and I have or really don't understand groupsets which is common in this sport, there is only one verdict. All the panning of DA 7900 is deserved. Its lousy on many levels, from ergonomics to shift quality with low spring rate relative to pull ratio and shifter throw. It sucks. Centaur is head and shoulders better, even late model Power Shift. Yes the Centaur I ride with multiple shift is even better and it is far from antiquated or irrelevant. If there is room for debate it is the cost/benefit difference between 10 and 11s groupsets. Bang for buck either Centaur or new Ultegra 6800 are hard to beat as many won't miss the extra cog either way. Ultegra 6800 is the new sheriff in town. Ultegra 6700 was every bit as bad as DA 7900 and good riddance to both. A dark period in Shimano lineage. Anybody who rode previous generation DA 7800 knew it was much better. DA 7800 was universally loved and why so many were disappointed in shift performance when Shimano went under the bar tape with DA 7900 without changing derailleur spring rates and Shimano really messed up with hood design. Hood rubbers fit poorly, had pressure points and also had a big hole on the side. A huge disappoint to Shimano fans which has all been corrected with their new stuff.

Campag4life

The reason I believe it is not a Shimano versus Campy thread is because now....wasn't the case before....but now with new Ultegra 6800 and DA 9000 Shimano once again has game. Game on with Campy. Also can't deny new Red. It is excellent as well and vastly better than Red pre-2013. Campy hasn't improved much in fact in the last 3 years because they really didn't have to. This was on the heels of their premature release of Ultrashift in 2009 which was awful compared to previous slimmer and more complex Campy shifter designs. Campy quickly addressed this in 2010 and for all intents, their groupsets have changed very little since.

KlingOn

Yeah, the Athena triple on a Record groupset is also "wrong on so many levels." And anyone willing to spend 100€ on a derailleur to give them five extra gear centimeters from 34x29 to 34x32 is "wrong on so many levels." Why not lose 2kg and reap the same benefit?

I'm glad your 7 year old Centaur is better than an equally now-antiquated Dura-Ace. How about your opinion on late 60s NR Campag against Simplex CR?

English isn't my first language, so unlike you guys, I am in the habit of reading all the words. My point was that Power Torque does suck, but there are NOS Ultra Torque alternatives that are at the exact same price point for the same groupsets like Centaur and Athena, so the pointless arguments on PT engineering viability and practicality are moot. And being that most of the folks reading this will never take their cranks off, it's moot by default.

Thanks for blanketing judgment on my groupset experience, involving your own anecdotal commentary lines, and offering a swift cynical criticism on my comments and knowledge.

Don't think this is the place for a level-headed dude not interested in confrontation.

Campag4life

Let me give you some credit. If English isn't your first language, you are most articulate.
The reason you are wrong about saying 7 year old Centaur is irrelevant is because if you took my bike with 2010 Centaur shifters out for a ride and then tested a 2013 bike with Super Record, shift performance would be identical. There is no change to the design or even difference in shifting between different level Campy groupset levels. The same can be pretty much said for old Ultegra 6700 and DA 7900, both were lousy and about the same and new Ultegra 6800 and DA 9000, both shift about the same and are excellent.
I will leave you with some common ground. You at least know that Power Torque isn't a good design. I am unconvinced you really understand why this is because few do that don't have a design background but at least you are correct in this regard.

KlingOn

Power Torque has a terribly-designed spring washer to accommodate multiple bottom bracket widths against a common torque protocol. That's a lame and lazy engineering solution.

Ultra Torque's hirth joint is awesome and expensive, so Campy dropped it at lower group levels in favor of the one-piece axle. This requires, at minimum, a 50€ bearing puller to remove the NDS arm, and another 50€ tool to service the one bearing that remains on the other side of the crank. This makes PT a cheaper quality crank that's more expensive to service, an anomaly and a lunacy on Campy's part.

The PT bearing set up for the external cups is equally ridiculous, with unequal stress forces generated by having an in-set bearing cup on one side, and a faux bearing cup which "holds" the bearing which is on the crank arm.

These terrible engineering factors, while unknown to 99% of riders, will likely never affect any of them, as expensive bicycles tend to sit in garages and never accumulate the kilometers they so deserve.

Since you and I are the 1%, maybe we should not argue about semantics when we could easily find more to agree on than disagree.

I meant no offense, and simply meant that I did not believe Centaur was "vastly superior" to DA. I would simply say "it's better." However, I really do not have your ground as I've never owned DA, only Campy and SRAM.

KlingOn

I also only have a the "normal" Chorus 11 and Record 11 rear derailleurs, and although these can accommodate my 6800 11-32, I do not have the quality of overall shifting that I do on the 6800 11-28. The shifting on my 6800 11-28 is indistinguishable from my shifting on my Chorus 12-29 cassette, and although these are not "identical" spacings, I think the float offered within the derailleur pulley offers the accommodation.

I would like to try your triple rear mech solution. If you think that provides a complete solution, maybe I could put aside groupset snobbery and sell off some bits from the parts bin.

Campag4life

Quite right, lets say we are the 1%'ers when it comes to discriminating the nuances of groupset design but I do have one point to make with you. Having a wave spring to accommodate BB shell build tolerance is not a lazy design. In fact it is what UT (we do agree the expensive hirth joint UT is excellent) has and a myriad of other top cranks including Specialized and Sram and many others. In fact a wave washer design if properly executed is better than a mechanical preload design like Shimano DA...or at least as good. This is for the simple fact that as bearings bed and they will from time of installation as miles accumulate, a mechical preload will lose its preload unlike a wave washer which adjusts to the bedding process with a linear spring rate over distance provided it is spaced correctly. This is has nothing to do with why PT is beleaguered. PT is poor because it relies on a tapered spline for interference fit with female splined crank arm with 'no solid shoulder' to build fastening torque. So build tolerance between male and female splines creates a delta in left crank arm position based upon bolt torque. This is needless and unlike any crank in the industry and for good reason. A straight fluted left crank arm interface with hard shoulder is more secure and less variable and why it is by far the most common connection used on cranks in the industry.

Btw, no offense taken. We are simply doing what we like to do which is talk bicycles.

Campag4life

A lot of things at play as you know. Cage length as mentioned is a big factor because chain length is so important. Have to keep good tension on the chain and a longer cage is required if running something like 32-11. Also, there is chain wrap. On Campy derailleurs there is a racked screw that adjusts the position of the top jocket wheel relative to the largest cog in back. Campy spec is 5mm for this and if greater than this value, insufficient chain wrap is achieved to optimize shifting and lower tooth stresses by greater chain interface to the cassette.. But no doubt as you say Ultegra 6800 shifting is excellent. Honestly if an owner likes if not prefers the ergonomics of a dual lever shifter like Ultegra, Ultegra 6800 I believe is the groupset to buy. I personally don't want a 32t rear cassette. I prefer 29t FWIW. This is in part because of tightness of cog spacing in back. If I need tremendous gearing diversity...say if living in the mountains, I will swap out a compact for a triple with slightly smaller diameter cassette in back and have all the gear inches I need on both sides of the spectrum.

WhyFi

Are you really trying to argue that one doesn't need any practical experience with a product to justify damning it as being inferior?

BoSoxYacht

Thanks for the replies and explanation of the difference between Powertorque and Ultratorque. I've never seen any of the lower end Campagnolo groupsets, so I was unaware of the downfalls to their designs.

It looks like 6800 is going to be my choice. Now I need to find the best place to make the purchase. From what I have been able to find, PBK has the best deal($798 before any coupon code). Is there a shop I'm unaware of, with a better price?

MagicHour

If you want to order from states Nashbar has pretty good prices especially if you can get a 20% off order coupon. Keep an eye out-I read on hot deals on another site there may be one this week on the 3rd -4th.

Ribble has great prices and may still have the 12% coupon going. Problem with Ribble is they shipped Royal Mail which has no tracking-so who knows when/if my crankset shows up? I'm in Brooklyn which is a bit like Wild West for mail delivery. Fingers crossed for this week.

Smokehouse

I cannot speak about Campy...

But…I will add a few few things.

I have not used the 7900 DA, but I have used the 6700 Ultegra and 5700 105. The 6700 left me really unimpressed. I have read nothing but good things about the 6800 however and will definitely be going to that group as funds allow. I have upgraded my brakes to the 6800 and I can say the difference in build quality vs the 6700/5700 is night and day. If what I've read is true…the rest of the group is equally impressive.

I saw you mentioned a front gear set…I live in Illinois so all we have here is some shirt, steep climbs, rollers and flats. I ran a 10sp 11-28 last year and a 52/36 front. I felt my gear options were solid (aside from the cross chain issues with the extremities). I do more climbing than high speed runs so for next season, I shed the 11-28 for a 12-30. I'll see how that goes.

Either way…the 6800 seems like a seriously nice group set, I look forward to trying it out myself. Congrats on whatever set you go with.

dmcdam

Eurobikeparts.com also has pretty good pricing. I'm going 6800 as well but my local guy got within $300 including install and taxes so I'm going with him.