Ron Harry

I hate starting new threads [unless it's really interesting], but I've done several forum searches for the info I'm needing with no luck...sooo...

I just need to understand about dropout widths, the proper hub widths to use on a given drop out [ie mountain vs touring vs road etc] for sake or switching out wheels between a new touring bike [LHT] and my road bikes [several] [ie as in back and forth].

I've only owned only road bike configurations until I got the surly recently, which I think has a dropout width of 135mm [is this right?]. It has standard XT hubs on the wheels [alex rims etc]. I think this is a wider width than my road bikes, right? I hadn't even considered this...

I want to change out the wheels for daily rides [touring is a specific planned event]...and the larger, bulky treaded schwalbe marathon tires are a bit slower...so thought I'd just trade over some of my ultegra hubbed road wheels [with narrow tires] onto the surly so that I can ride a bit faster 'unloaded' on my daily joy rides. Otherwise, I'll probably just be storing the surly until I go loaded [such a nice bike too].

But then I find out about the dropout widths being wider on the surly etc...and now I'm confused.

So, anyone have the low down on interchangeability between, say dropouts where shimano XT hubs are used [the LHT], and say, another wheel that uses shimano ultegra hubs [off a road bike]? I have five bikes now and that's one of my objectives to create interchangeable wheelsets etc [I have concentrated on 10 speeds as my benchmark; and now surly offers the 10 speed off the floor]. I can just slap on any wheel I have onto any bike...and it makes for great 'flexibility' in my rides.

But what about Bob...uh...I mean, the surly.

Hope I explained this properly and sorry if there's been other threads on this similar subject [just didn't find if so].

hueyhoolihan

AFAIK, shimano Alivio, Acero, Deore, XT, LX, XTR hubs are or were designed for 135mm (possibly 130mm for some very old, mid 80's ones) width rear dropouts. those are also known as MTB hubs. or mountain hubs. Shimano and other road bike component maker's road hubs have been 130mm wide now for close to three decades.

there is plenty of info on Wiki and Sheldon Brown's site concerning rear hub widths. it would be worthwhile to take a couple hours and peruse it.

rear hub widths have proliferated (all that i am aware of have increased the width) recently, with new designs targeted at more demanding bicycling disciplines, like downhill, and trials. it's hard to keep up. so i don't.

creating swappable rear wheels across bike disciplines is almost impossible. in many cases it can be difficult even within a discipline from what i can see. front wheels, OTOH, are a piece of cake.

MassiveD

The rear spacing on many bikes is set up at 132.5, so as to allow easy use between the two standards mentioned above. While the systems can be both used on such bikes, ore even on 135 spreads, I would not personally prefer to run two separate wheels of different sizes. And even if you did, you would need to be OK on the chains, and on the drive lines.

I like riding my touring bike without gear on it, and do not consider it a lousy bike to ride. It would depend how serious this training was. Even a touring bike with two sets of wheels is not a racing bike. Other than that, I would consider building a different wheel set for the bike, since that would allow me to deal with drive train and ride issues.

bradtx

Ron Harry, No argument that reducing rotational mass will aid in acceleration and deceleration, but the bike won't be 'roadie-like' due to geometry and wheelbase.

I'd used my touring bikes a lot for unloaded riding. Once up to cruising speed there's no difference between the two designs, at least during straight line riding. The added rotational mass may also have a beneficial flywheel effect, I don't have empirical data to base this opinion on.

A tire swap maybe all that you want and perhaps relabeling joy rides as training rides.

Brad

Ron Harry

Hmm...appreciate everyone's input here. Still confused. And yes, I tried to research this beforehand, but I only get more confused [my brain starts swimming from all the numbers; old age brain shrinkage I think, sorry]. There' so much info on the net these days that there is no need for people to even talk to one another anymore, right, LOL. But wading through the swamp...that wears you out...so, you ask questions. Sorry. Sheldon Brown notwithstanding etc.

I somehow think swapping wheels [the ultegra hub wheel for the XT hub wheel] is workable. Somewhere I seem to remember something about spacers or some such. As far as ride quality, I find that wheel/tire configuration makes a world of difference, and I like to try different variations. Swapping wheels is nothing compared to swapping tires [one suggestion here]...swapping tires impractical. Truth of the matter is, I had wheels 'BUILT' specifically that I would have manually tensioned spokes...but put the ultegra hubs on them not even considering dropout width. It's just something I had not come across since all my bikes are roadies. The surly is a nice bike, but it can't really compare with the quickness of my road bikes...and from experience, most of that difference IS in the tire/wheel config [IMHO of course]. I won't be 'touring' but every so often...while I ride everyday [and it a great JOY for me...not just training, in all respect of course]. If I can't use the ultegra hubbed 'touring' wheels on the surly...hmm...I wonder what I'm going to do with those wheels? And I guess that's my DIRECT 'black and white' question...can I use the ultegra hubbed wheelset on the surly LHT bike. I mean, why would they even make a "touring" wheelset with ultegra hubs if that can only be used on road bikes if these dropout widths are pretty standard?

I had plans [for these wheelsets involving generator hubs and such, over time], but I hadn't even thought about dropout widths. Always something. My bad of course but it's just something I hadn't come across before.

Tourist in MSN

Agree that Sheldon Brown website is an outstanding resource for such questions.

I have a second set of wheels with skinny high pressure supple tires too. Don't forget to budget a second cassette to make the wheel swap faster.

Some older wheels are 126mm or 120mm, so it can get complicated.

Tourist in MSN

With some hubs, spacers and a longer axle can be used to increase from 130 to 135. Your rim would then be offset to one side, that needs adjustment too.

mdilthey

Luckily, the Surly LHT uses 132.5mm dropouts so you can use both road wheels and mountain wheels. Interchange all you like.

robert schlatte

I may be wrong but I think LHT dropouts are 135mm spaced. It sounds like you will be riding the LHT unloaded more than loaded and you will want narrower tires on the bike more often than not. Rather than switching wheelsets between the LHT and road bikes, , I would run narrower tires on the LHT the majority of the time and then change them to wider when you want to use the LHT for its intended purpose as a tourer. I wouldn't switch wheels with different hub widths, gearing, chainline, etc. That is too much of an effort. Just change tires when you need to.

Ron Harry

thank you, thank you, thank you...I somehow suspected this.

Maybe I need to go into more detail on my dilemma to explain [to any others trying help]. I put the 'cart before the horse' last month, while in the market for a touring bike. I ordered the 'wheels' before I even considered the bike. WHY? I have a trek hybrid [carbon, but has rear rack braise ons I can use for panniers] that I thought I'd try using for 'credit card' 2 or 3 day touring...and then just switch out the new 'touring wheelset' I'd order to the new 'full load' tour bike I was about to purchase [I hadn't decided on the LHT at the time].

I had read much input here about the ONE thing that is most problematic to 'loaded touring' which is wheels that aren't tensioned properly [ie manually]. I've had excellent luck with Bicycle Wheel Warehouse with 3 other road wheelsets, and they offer a TOURING wheelset at a reasonable cost...so I order them [again, BEFORE I had purchased the surly bike]. I'm sort of embarrassed at all this [not knowing about dropouts and such]...so I hadn't gone into great detail on all this. All the rest is true enough as I like to switch wheelsets at times to see what rides good, better, best etc.

I saw the LHT's are 10 speed this year...so jumped on buying one after finally checking one out up close and personal, thinking "great, I can switch any wheelset I have, including the new touring wheels from Bicycle wheel warehouse" since I do try and get everything 10 speed [one would be surprised at the ride varations one can experience by changing out wheels; and I have five bikes now with the surly].

BWW [Bicycle wheel warehouse] only offer roadie hubs [tiagra, ultegra etc] on their builds...and on the 'advertised' touring wheels, I ordered the ultegra hubs. The surly wheels, alex rims with LX hubs [sorry, I think I was saying XT before]...well, I just screwed up ordering the 'touring wheels' even before I had the touring bike [all the posts about manually tensioned wheels got to me I guess]. I toured a lot when younger and remember wheels going out of true while on the road was just something I hated. It just takes that 'JOY' out of things, ha.

So, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it I suppose. I have the BWW wheels and haven't even put tires on them yet, wondering what I'm going to do with them [for the TREK carbon hybrid, or for the Surly for loaded touring; or both if interchangeable]. If I put a bit 'thinner' tire with lighter thread on the BWW wheelset for 'daily use' [I have schwalbe marathons on the alex rims]...thinking about gatorskins for the BWW wheels etc.

So, thank you Mdilthey [and others here]. I suppose I'll experiment some and see what works [or not] though I'm not rich [trying to pinch pennies though often ends up costing more for some reason, ha]. I don't want to damage anything though [wheels or bikes...or my own tush, ha].

Ron Harry

actually, this probably makes most sense really. I just screwed up ordering wheels before I'd purchased the bike. I'm swimming in wheelsets just now, LOL. Plus, when I go to choose one of my bikes to ride last few days, I find myself passing over the Surly for a faster road bike...and I really like the surly.

cyccommute 

Not according to Surly

But there is a lot of spring in a Surly frame. 5mm is just barely over 1/8". Compressing the frame down isn't going to hurt much. If the bike were a short chainstay aluminum road bike, you might be asking for trouble but the LHT doesn't fit that description.

mdilthey

My local shop is a Surly dealer (aren't they all?) and the actual hub spacing is closer to the middle ground, at least for the past several generations. I suspect that this did not change in 2014/2015, and that the actual spacing is a hair narrower than the spacing listed on Surly's site. It's worth calling Surly to confirm.

According to my LBS (the owner, decades of experience with steel bikes like this), all the Surly road-geometry frames are built this way. And, as you said, the 2.5mm-5mm spacing difference won't matter for a steel bike with long chainstays, the Surly LHT's calling card.

BobG

Just for the heck of it I took off the rear wheel of my Litespeed Classic (130mm) and put it onto my Bruce Gordon R&R (135mm) as a test. Not a problem. You may have to back off the narrower QR skewer nut to engage the wider dropouts then tighten it manually to compress the extra space before tightening the QR lever.

Tourist in MSN

Are you thinking of the Cross Check? That is 132.5. LHT is 135mm.

palu

135mm is 135mm. All Surly's I've had (including the Trucker in my garage right now), were true to indicated width. Cross Check had the "tweener" sizing. Not the Trucker.

And although you can make 130mm hubs work, you may have to adjust the rear derailer. If you're not handy with how to do that, it could be a pain in the neck. You could also use 5mm worth of spacers on the Ultegra hub, but again, will have to adjust the derailer. I'd rather do a quick tire change than go through all of that, personally.

BobG

And also you may have to adjust brakes for a narrower rim. Ron, why not just use one of your other 5 bikes for fast rides that are set to go?

mdilthey

Mmm, I might be thinking of the cross-check. Sorry, OP. I've let everybody down.

Ronno6

OP, if you plan on having a set of race wheels specifically for the Surly, I would recommend replacing the Ultegra (or whatever road hub you like) axle with one 5mm longer, and adding a 5mm spacer to the non drive side.
Then redish the wheel 2.5mm towards the NDS.
This would not only (probably) alleviate the necessity to adjust the rear derailleur, but
would also result in a stronger wheel, as there would be less offset.
You will need to adjust your brakes, however.
Now I am $.02 poorer..........

Ron Harry

Just a follow up in case someone else has this question [unlikely, ha].
I slapped a spare 10 spd cassette on the ultegra-pure tour rim wheel and just traded it out for the alex wheelset that came on the Surly...and I've had no problems. The derailer limits [I call 'stops'] were right on [as they always are when I trade out wheels on my other bikes]. I may be compressing the drop outs slightly [can't see it though when I install]...what, 2.5 cm at most? Anyway, seems I made much ado about nothing and the pure tour wheels work fine on the Surly [so far anyway].

Again, I've done no touring with this bike yet [bought in prep for this spring and summer]; just joy riding on it for now.