When does a sidewalk become a bike path?
#26
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If a bike path is OK, when does it become a dangerous sidewalk (assuming it still has same driveways and minor road crossings)? When it is only 2' from the road? When it is directly adjacent to the road? When it is made of cement instead of asphalt? When has it become so dangerous that children should be told not to ride to school unless they do so in the traffic lane?
If it has driveway intersections that lack proper sight distances and turning radii, then it's not a path, it's a sidewalk.
It might still be a safer place for children to ride, depending on the street, but they need to understand they're riding on a sidewalk, not a bike path.
On a sidewalk, every driveway is a potential conflict point with motorists who are looking for pedestrian-speed traffic.
On a sidewalk, if bicycling is legal, there's no "right" direction of travel like there is on a path, so you must be constantly aware of more potential conflicts.
On a sidewalk, cyclists should generally limit themselves to pedestrian speeds when they're near any pedestrians, any driveways or intersections, any cyclists heading other directions.
#27
In the last few weeks I saw quite a few people riding on the sidewalks due to the road condition (snow, ice, slush). Some deliverymen rode too fast on the sidewalks passing pedestrians, not good. On the rare occasions when I need to ride on sidewalks, I ride almost at pedestrians' pace.
#28
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Where I live the distinction between sidewalk and multi-use path is murky. Not only is it legal to ride on sidewalks, but some of them are designated as multi-use paths and are shown as bike routes on the city's bike map. These range from a path about 7 feet wide that is separated from the road and and has few intersections or driveways to ordinary 3 foot wide sidewalks in residential neighborhoods. There is even one place that has a marked, signed bike lane on the sidewalk.
#29
Collisions tend to occur at intersections where traffic paths can conflict and on a sidewalk every driveway becomes an intersection. I would consider any bike path that has just as many driveway crossings as a typical residential suburban sidewalk to be just as dangerous as the sidewalk and would avoid it.
#30
#31
So, should we tell the hundred or so kids who ride along here every day to school that they shouldn't because it is too dangerous due to the driveways? Should we tell them that instead they should ride in the motor traffic lane with fairly heavy 45-55 mph traffic?
#32
In the last few weeks I saw quite a few people riding on the sidewalks due to the road condition (snow, ice, slush). Some deliverymen rode too fast on the sidewalks passing pedestrians, not good. On the rare occasions when I need to ride on sidewalks, I ride almost at pedestrians' pace.
#33
Where I live the distinction between sidewalk and multi-use path is murky. Not only is it legal to ride on sidewalks, but some of them are designated as multi-use paths and are shown as bike routes on the city's bike map. These range from a path about 7 feet wide that is separated from the road and and has few intersections or driveways to ordinary 3 foot wide sidewalks in residential neighborhoods. There is even one place that has a marked, signed bike lane on the sidewalk.
#34
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About a year ago there was a fairly in-depth report, I think by people-for-bikes but couldn't find it there, that looked at this. If I remember correctly something like 60% of fatalities were riders being hit from behind and about 40% were at intersections. Maybe someone else on here has a link to it.
Index - Crash-Type Manual for Bicyclists
Unfortunately I think it only makes the serious/not serious distinction, but doesn't count fatalities.
I find it is a little frustrating because it is broken down into about 60 separate pages. I have summarized some of the data in a personal spreadsheet. Here is my summary. A couple of fields are calculated (giving fractions of an accident), or were my attribution of fault based on the description.
Younger kids especially were most affected by driveways and intersections.
About half the accidents were caused by actions of the bicycles such as failing to stop at a stopsign, or not looking.
About half were caused by actions of the car such as rear-ending, or also failing to stop or yield.
#35
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About a year ago there was a fairly in-depth report, I think by people-for-bikes but couldn't find it there, that looked at this. If I remember correctly something like 60% of fatalities were riders being hit from behind and about 40% were at intersections. Maybe someone else on here has a link to it.
#36
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About a year ago there was a fairly in-depth report, I think by people-for-bikes but couldn't find it there, that looked at this. If I remember correctly something like 60% of fatalities were riders being hit from behind and about 40% were at intersections. Maybe someone else on here has a link to it.
#37
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drivers also often fail to notice cycling-speed traffic at driveways and intersections so your critique applies to cyclists using bike lanes and vehicle lanes
Last edited by spare_wheel; 03-05-15 at 03:31 PM.
#38
When it becomes driveways.
Sidewalks in of themselves are not dangerous... the fact that motorists may drive across them in certain areas is what makes them dangerous... and driveways are what allow motorists to drive on sidewalks.
There are areas where sidewalks are nothing more than sidewalks for huge distances... those sidewalks are fine for peds and cyclists (as long as the cyclists watch out for the peds), but as soon as a driveway crosses a sidewalk, both peds and cyclists have to watch out for motorists... motorists who often blindly cross sidewalks as an entitlement of using driveways.
Interestingly the same areas where driveways appear can also be dangerous to cyclists riding on the road... as where right turns are allowed is also where right hooks occur... again largely due to the same "entitlement" issue mentioned above.
Thus driveways present a hazard to sidewalk riders, walkers and to those riding right most on the road. TEACH that right turns and driveways can be dangerous to peds and cyclists.
Sidewalks in of themselves are not dangerous... the fact that motorists may drive across them in certain areas is what makes them dangerous... and driveways are what allow motorists to drive on sidewalks.
There are areas where sidewalks are nothing more than sidewalks for huge distances... those sidewalks are fine for peds and cyclists (as long as the cyclists watch out for the peds), but as soon as a driveway crosses a sidewalk, both peds and cyclists have to watch out for motorists... motorists who often blindly cross sidewalks as an entitlement of using driveways.
Interestingly the same areas where driveways appear can also be dangerous to cyclists riding on the road... as where right turns are allowed is also where right hooks occur... again largely due to the same "entitlement" issue mentioned above.
Thus driveways present a hazard to sidewalk riders, walkers and to those riding right most on the road. TEACH that right turns and driveways can be dangerous to peds and cyclists.
Notice I did not say bike path. It is a walking or riding path, often separated from the street by 20-30 feet and with views badly obstructed and crossed by driveways going into expensive homes. Idylic and a wonderful break, but dangerous as all heck for kids or adults who do not click to the danger and realize they have to turn into pedestrians on wheels. Only rode it once or twice. I did not have the patience to be a good pedestrian on wheels.
It did take a bit before it registered the first time. It was a strange sort of Oh Crap moment.
One thing that made it especially dangerous is that I never saw anyone else on it. That means there is a temptation to go fast (at least by pedestrian on wheels standards) and that car drivers do not expect any cross traffic. Not a good combination.
#40
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#41
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My commute to work is significantly faster than my commute home.
Going to work I'm fresh, and its mostly down hill. Going home after working 8 to 10 hours with a mile long 15% grade to climb tends to slow me down.
The big hill is on a main 4 lane arterial that has no shoulders or bike lanes, so going down in the am. I use the lane, going up in the pm. I use the sidewalk. It was in terrible shape, but the city is redoing it a couple blocks at a time and its almost done.
Going to work I'm fresh, and its mostly down hill. Going home after working 8 to 10 hours with a mile long 15% grade to climb tends to slow me down.
The big hill is on a main 4 lane arterial that has no shoulders or bike lanes, so going down in the am. I use the lane, going up in the pm. I use the sidewalk. It was in terrible shape, but the city is redoing it a couple blocks at a time and its almost done.
#43
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No but nobody makes anybody sit on a couch, as the poster I replied to want to "makes people ride instead of sitting on their couches".
#44
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I will say that I was "tapped" by a car coming out of a commercial driveway while on the sidewalk years ago. I was probably walking my bike on the sidewalk going in the opposite direction of traffic, and he just didn't see me as his attention would have been in the direction of the traffic. No damage, nothing hurt, but it does illustrate that cars don't expect bikes to be quickly traveling on sidewalks in the opposite direction of traffic... or even those traveling at pedestrian speeds.
I suppose now I'm more likely to divert my course while walking to go behind a car that looks like it is ready to exit a drive, or stop and wait, or at least make sure a driver acknowledges me. Sometimes cut behind the first car and in front of the second car in a line of cars.
I suppose now I'm more likely to divert my course while walking to go behind a car that looks like it is ready to exit a drive, or stop and wait, or at least make sure a driver acknowledges me. Sometimes cut behind the first car and in front of the second car in a line of cars.
The law is also simple regarding the use of sidewalks: sidewalks are for pedestrian. However, a cyclist may use the sidewalk except in locations where it is prohibited. Typically within the central or downtown district. Cyclist on the sidewalk must also yield to pedestrians.
#45
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True, but there are minimum standards for sight distances in travel lanes, unlike bike lanes and sidewalks. The farther you are from the travel lane, the less likely a driver will be looking for vehicular speeds.
#46
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Then they need to read the Driver handbook. In Florida, the law is simple: before crossing a sidewalk you must stop and yield the right of way. Its essentially the same as a stop sign.
The law is also simple regarding the use of sidewalks: sidewalks are for pedestrian. However, a cyclist may use the sidewalk except in locations where it is prohibited. Typically within the central or downtown district. Cyclist on the sidewalk must also yield to pedestrians.
The law is also simple regarding the use of sidewalks: sidewalks are for pedestrian. However, a cyclist may use the sidewalk except in locations where it is prohibited. Typically within the central or downtown district. Cyclist on the sidewalk must also yield to pedestrians.
#47
And just how many drivers also actually come to complete stops at stop signs, drive below the speed limit, and actually come to a complete stop before making a right turn on red and use turn signals before turning or changing lanes? All things that are covered in the Driver Handbook that they are supposed to have read. Dream on.
#48
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Yep. Regardless of where you ride (or drive) you can never count on people simply obeying laws. Better to design roads, bikeways, and sidewalks to encourage or force people to take safer actions. Narrow driving lanes do a much better job of slowing people than speed limit signs do. Tight radius corners at intersections do this even better and at one of the most critical points. Tabling (raising) crossings make people more aware of them and force them to slow (and reduce water and snow buildup). One place where paint does have an impact is sharks teeth (give-way) at crossings which do an amazingly better job of getting drivers to give appropriate ROW than any other type of marking — something about these things pointing at drivers is very effective.
#49
The Dutch CROW manual on bicycle traffic design lays out some pretty specific details on sight lines. Bikeways are usually designed for 18 mph (20 kph) minimum speed so sight lines have to be enough so that drivers can see faster riders approaching if the riders have ROW which is most of the time.
Last edited by CrankyOne; 03-06-15 at 10:36 AM.
#50
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However, narrow lanes and tight radius corners discourage or eliminate the possibility for public transit busses to use those streets. I also am skeptical of US drivers adjusting properly to the necessary restrictions, and the ability of public officials to convince the 95% or so of the public who do not use bicycles as transportation to accept reductions in traffic flow.