A Yuuuuge Improvement in Braking Power!
#51
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,646 Times
in
6,054 Posts
Ok, I looked it up, disc brakes add at least 75 pounds to your bike.
#52
Non omnino gravis
#53
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 4,286
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1096 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Valid question. I don't feel THAT sorry for them. I also kind of feel sorry for the little kids I see whose parents make them wear helmets, knee and elbow pads just to ride a scooter or push bike. But what are you going to do? As for charity, well, seems to me it's the folks who spend extra for disc brakes, like the kids whose parents shower them with gear, who have the financial resources to spare.
#54
Voice of the Industry
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 12,572
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1188 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
8 Posts
Valid question. I don't feel THAT sorry for them. I also kind of feel sorry for the little kids I see whose parents make them wear helmets, knee and elbow pads just to ride a scooter or push bike. But what are you going to do? As for charity, well, seems to me it's the folks who spend extra for disc brakes, like the kids whose parents shower them with gear, who have the financial resources to spare.
For example, we may agree that disk brakes have less advantage compared to disadvantage on a road bike, but I don't feel sorry for those that prefer disk brakes in the least. In certain conditions, disk brakes work better. If you deny this, you haven't ridden them much IMO. I feel sorry for those that don't have enough money to buy any kind of decent bicycle however.
And we further disagree about making little Johnny wear a helmet. No I didn't grow up wearing a helmet, but helmets based upon personal experience save lives....even if riding a push scooter or a skateboard or rollerblading you didn't mention. So I encourage helmet use when in motion. Paradigms evolve sometimes for the good and helmet usage is one. Even with a helmet, head collisions can still cause brain damage. This is evidenced in football and will likely be sweeping changes to that sport as well. I would never let a child play football with what is known today either...and many pro football players feel the same way about their children.
Last edited by Campag4life; 08-17-17 at 05:04 AM.
#55
Senior Member
To put it politely, this ^ is total drivel. I overestimated the size disparity but the linear pull pads are nonetheless much larger (if not 4x the size in total surface area) and generate vastly more stopping power. Try it yourself on your road bike. You'll notice a similar advantage especially if the stock dual pivots are junk like the axis'. Armed with very large linear pull pads stopping power is excellent and very little effort is required at the lever.
2nd, it's not an assumption it's a hypothesis which could easily be tested. Go take a look at the GCN comparison. Only an idiot thinks a crabon rim is an ideal surface for braking. Common sense dictates that wet braking disparity is significantly reduced, likely halved with alu rims, if not more. Add a larger pad, re: the hack I describe, and that reduces the gap even further, possibly eliminating it altogether.
I dare anyone to conduct a valid comparison. I guarantee no one will do so because the entire cycling industry will look stupid. Even if discs wind up with a small advantage very few riders appreciate an extra lb of weight plus a 10 watt disadvantage due to aero drag.
Discs are a gimmick and a marketing scam. I can see discs being advantageous for riders who a) ride in sludge a large percentage of the time and b) are too lazy to wipe down rims and pads after wet rides. Otherwise, there's precious little to recommend discs for road use.
And there's no reason to avoid wiping down rims and pads after a ride in the rain or mud. After all, you have to clean and oil your chain-what's a couple of extra minutes to wipe down rims and pads?
And there's no reason to avoid wiping down rims and pads after a ride in the rain or mud. After all, you have to clean and oil your chain-what's a couple of extra minutes to wipe down rims and pads?
Let's say you ARE too lazy to wipe down rims and pads. What's the cost of total negligence? A durable entry level wheel costs $60 to $70 at an lbs. Even less online. Let's say you trash 2 wheels a year. That's an investment of $120 a year. Hardly a king's ransom.
How much does an entry level road bike with hydro's cost? $3K or so. It would take TWENTY FIVE YEARS of annual 2 wheel replacements every single year to match the expense of a new bike (after all you can't upgrade the brakes alone). And you wouldn't even be paying up front. You'd pay in tiny installments, and only if you totally neglected any semblance of maintenance whatsoever.
How much does an entry level road bike with hydro's cost? $3K or so. It would take TWENTY FIVE YEARS of annual 2 wheel replacements every single year to match the expense of a new bike (after all you can't upgrade the brakes alone). And you wouldn't even be paying up front. You'd pay in tiny installments, and only if you totally neglected any semblance of maintenance whatsoever.
#56
Senior Member
Let's fact check this claim.
Cervelo R5 Disc weighs 19 grams less than their R5 Rim, fameset only. Enve SES 3.4s with DT hubs are 50 grams heavier in disc. RS785 is 340 grams heavier in hydraulic disc. Grand total of 370 gram weight penalty.
Is a Cervelo R5 comparable to a Cervelo R5? Yes.
Is 370 grams 2 pounds? No.
Cervelo R5 Disc weighs 19 grams less than their R5 Rim, fameset only. Enve SES 3.4s with DT hubs are 50 grams heavier in disc. RS785 is 340 grams heavier in hydraulic disc. Grand total of 370 gram weight penalty.
Is a Cervelo R5 comparable to a Cervelo R5? Yes.
Is 370 grams 2 pounds? No.
#57
Senior Member
#58
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 4,286
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1096 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Now, I used to be a motorcyclist and was pretty much an ATGATT kind of guy, so I get your point, to a point. But it seems to me the key is not how we are moving, but rather how much control we have.
#59
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,646 Times
in
6,054 Posts
#60
Non omnino gravis
If we're only looking at the top-of-the-line,
DuraAce 9150 Di2 rim brake, total group weight 2051g
DuraAce 9170 Di2 hydro disc brake, total group weight 2389g
DuraAce 9100 mech rim brake, total group weight, 2097g
DuraAce 9120 mech disc brake, total group weight, 2445g
So for us Americans, that's 11.9oz weight penalty for the Di2, and 12.3oz for the mechanical. Add the rotors (which are not included in groupset weight) and you're there at the pound typically mentioned... but that's a pound added to DuraAce 9100 components, which are getting near as light as it gets. Many of us could go to the 9120 and our bikes would get lighter.
DuraAce 9150 Di2 rim brake, total group weight 2051g
DuraAce 9170 Di2 hydro disc brake, total group weight 2389g
DuraAce 9100 mech rim brake, total group weight, 2097g
DuraAce 9120 mech disc brake, total group weight, 2445g
So for us Americans, that's 11.9oz weight penalty for the Di2, and 12.3oz for the mechanical. Add the rotors (which are not included in groupset weight) and you're there at the pound typically mentioned... but that's a pound added to DuraAce 9100 components, which are getting near as light as it gets. Many of us could go to the 9120 and our bikes would get lighter.
#61
Voice of the Industry
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 12,572
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1188 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
8 Posts
Nothing to be gained by addressing all the ways you have mistaken my meaning, but I have to highlight this gem of yours, which I hope I am misreading - or do you in fact encourage people to put on a helmet as soon as they get out of bed?
Now, I used to be a motorcyclist and was pretty much an ATGATT kind of guy, so I get your point, to a point. But it seems to me the key is not how we are moving, but rather how much control we have.
Now, I used to be a motorcyclist and was pretty much an ATGATT kind of guy, so I get your point, to a point. But it seems to me the key is not how we are moving, but rather how much control we have.
How much control we have? You mean when the dog comes out of nowhere and gets caught under the front wheel and we endo? We have no control is the whole point behind wearing helmets. If accident avoidance was predictable, we wouldn't need them.
I too 'was' a ATGATT motorcyclist who quit riding because I saw too much carnage on the road...moronic driver pull outs basically. Saw one just the other day and the guy laid his bike down trying to avoid the collision and slid under the small truck, got stuck, caught on fire and burnt to death.
We have little control is the point. Helmets help but I have lost friends who had helmets on as well including on a bicycle where they didn't save them.
#63
pan y agua
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,339
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1472 Post(s)
Liked 758 Times
in
390 Posts
Let's fact check this claim.
Cervelo R5 Disc weighs 19 grams less than their R5 Rim, fameset only. Enve SES 3.4s with DT hubs are 50 grams heavier in disc. RS785 is 340 grams heavier in hydraulic disc. Grand total of 370 gram weight penalty.
Is a Cervelo R5 comparable to a Cervelo R5? Yes.
Is 370 grams 2 pounds? No.
Cervelo R5 Disc weighs 19 grams less than their R5 Rim, fameset only. Enve SES 3.4s with DT hubs are 50 grams heavier in disc. RS785 is 340 grams heavier in hydraulic disc. Grand total of 370 gram weight penalty.
Is a Cervelo R5 comparable to a Cervelo R5? Yes.
Is 370 grams 2 pounds? No.
Adding up component weights doesn't always end up squaring with actual weights of the assembled bikes.
There are a couple of things you're leaving out. The ENVE weights don't include the thru axle. Also, the frame weight is just the frame, not a frameset, so it doesn't include the fork.
When you look at published weights of actual bikes the difference is greater than your math suggests.
For example a Trek Emonda SLR8 disc weighs 15.26 pounds, and the SLR rim 13.73, more than a pound and a half.
While the weight difference is closing a bit, it's still more than a pound. Rather than ignoring that, the better question is whether it matters, and whether there's enough advantage to offset it.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
#64
pan y agua
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,339
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1472 Post(s)
Liked 758 Times
in
390 Posts
If we're only looking at the top-of-the-line,
DuraAce 9150 Di2 rim brake, total group weight 2051g
DuraAce 9170 Di2 hydro disc brake, total group weight 2389g
DuraAce 9100 mech rim brake, total group weight, 2097g
DuraAce 9120 mech disc brake, total group weight, 2445g
So for us Americans, that's 11.9oz weight penalty for the Di2, and 12.3oz for the mechanical. Add the rotors (which are not included in groupset weight) and you're there at the pound typically mentioned... but that's a pound added to DuraAce 9100 components, which are getting near as light as it gets. Many of us could go to the 9120 and our bikes would get lighter.
DuraAce 9150 Di2 rim brake, total group weight 2051g
DuraAce 9170 Di2 hydro disc brake, total group weight 2389g
DuraAce 9100 mech rim brake, total group weight, 2097g
DuraAce 9120 mech disc brake, total group weight, 2445g
So for us Americans, that's 11.9oz weight penalty for the Di2, and 12.3oz for the mechanical. Add the rotors (which are not included in groupset weight) and you're there at the pound typically mentioned... but that's a pound added to DuraAce 9100 components, which are getting near as light as it gets. Many of us could go to the 9120 and our bikes would get lighter.
Plus most disc frames are a bit heavier (although I have to admit the R5 is surprising in that regard) disc forks are heavier. Thru axles are heavier than QR's. And you really should build disc wheels with higher spoke count than wheels for rim brakes.
Thus my point is that it's more instructive to look at the actual weights of actual bikes.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
#65
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,623
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7702 Post(s)
Liked 3,615 Times
in
1,906 Posts
Discs weigh more and in certain situations stop better.
The Earth is Not flat.
Thirteen disc brake threads, and three pages here, and people are still trying to debate the facts as obvious as whether the sun is up during the daytime.
"Hi---What's this thread about?"
it's about people who are done making up their minds and bored, so they are trying to make up other people's minds as well.
The Earth is Not flat.
Thirteen disc brake threads, and three pages here, and people are still trying to debate the facts as obvious as whether the sun is up during the daytime.
"Hi---What's this thread about?"
it's about people who are done making up their minds and bored, so they are trying to make up other people's minds as well.
#66
Senior Member
#67
Senior Member
#68
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 384
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Calling what you don't seem to understand 'drivel' doesn't make it not so. You can try some simple experiments to prove the above to yourself, if you really care. Start by making a small box that weighs about a few pounds. Try to push it on a surface. Now make the box 10-20 times bigger in surface area contacting the floor but still weighing about the same. Is it 10-20 times harder to push? What you propose says that it should be.
In the meantime, I suggest you find a dictionary and look up the words "clamp" and "slide." Believe it or not, there is a difference. :-)
Not dual compounds but I have run linear pull brake pads on caliper brakes. I have also used a very wide variety of bicycle brakes over the past 20 years of riding regularly, ranging from very low to end to some of the best.
Whatever you call it, you seem to be proposing that you are so much smarter than Shimano, Campagnolo, SRAM, Cane Creek, Tektro, etc. all of whom equip their road calipers with normal size pads. If only they just made the pads bigger...Or not. Perhaps they've done a little more work on the problem and have a slightly better background of knowledge on the topic. I know it's hard to imagine
Whatever you call it, you seem to be proposing that you are so much smarter than Shimano, Campagnolo, SRAM, Cane Creek, Tektro, etc. all of whom equip their road calipers with normal size pads. If only they just made the pads bigger...Or not. Perhaps they've done a little more work on the problem and have a slightly better background of knowledge on the topic. I know it's hard to imagine
Furthermore, everyone knows that tektro calipers are of poor quality. I've ridden plenty of models of tektro's and have never ever been favorably impressed. They flat out suck and everyone knows it.
I know it's tough for you to wrap your rather small brain around, but component manufacturers are not staffed by gods. They are average people making average or even below average wages. They have produced such oddities as down tube shifters, cogs without hyperglide ramps, chainrings without superglide ramps, hydraulic brakes that fail and must be recalled, biopace chainrings, single pivot calipers, brake levers made of plastic, resin pedals, etc etc etc etc etc.
Cheap, heavily compromised components are the norm for the bicycling industry, even among the major players.
Bicycles, you see, occupy an odd grey area somewhere between transportation and kid's toys, and the level of engineering reflects the limited budgets, middling or below average engineering skills, and total lack of regulation bicycle component manufacturers face.
If you are a top engineering graduate at MIT, Caltech, Berkeley or Stanford, where do you want to work? At NASA or at SRAM?
"Engineers" or product designers at the bicycle component companies are poorly paid bike geeks who quite frankly cannot compete on the job market elsewhere.
What do you think Chris Chance did when he dropped out of bicycle manufacturing? Did he go for work for BMW or Porsche to help design carreras? No, he became a friggin' reiki "healer!"
The engineering skills of the employees at campy, sram, etc are mediocre at best. Disc brakes are not exactly a new groundbreaking technology designed specifically for bicycles. They are an established technology; yes, it does take some effort to develop lighter parts for bicycles, and it does take time for product proliferation and amortization to bring costs down, but these are issues of refinement and patient marketing, they don't involve extraordinary creativity or intelligence. The tech is already there, waiting to be applied to a new range of products, in this case mtn and road bicycles.
A new expert has been born! I'm sure the offers from the big three will be pouring in any day now so that they can roll out the next game-changer in brake tech on their new groups: bigger pads.
They either work as proposed or they are a scam. They can't be both. If you think wiping down rims after a ride solves any of the issues that discs solve, you are sadly mistaken.
This takes the cake and needs no further response
They either work as proposed or they are a scam. They can't be both. If you think wiping down rims after a ride solves any of the issues that discs solve, you are sadly mistaken.
This takes the cake and needs no further response
2nd, "axis" is not part of the big three. As a matter of fact, no one knows who produces "axis" brakes because specialized isn't saying. How's that for accountability?!?
"Axis" brakes are inferior products. You can find posts everywhere on the net documenting this problem.
And you are right, either axis brakes work or they are a scam. It is the latter. The brakes are in fact a scam. They don't work. At least you got that much right. :-)
3rd, wiping down rims and pads doesn't "solve" any of the problems discs "solve." If you have not figured this out already, and apparently you haven't, there was no problem to "solve." Both rim and disc brakes stop in the wet! The only documented figures we have of an alleged disparity in stopping distances is from GCN. They claim a 3 to 10 meter disparity. HOWEVER, as I have pointed out several times, this is because GCN used carbon rather than alu rims. I estimate the disparity would be halved with alu rims alone.
Use shimano calipers, and the disparity decreases further. Use linear pull pads and I would not be surprised if the gap were completely closed.
As I said earlier, no one will actually conduct such tests since it will expose the fact that discs offer at best a negligible advantage.
Last edited by speshelite; 08-17-17 at 02:44 PM.
#69
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 384
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#70
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 384
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Discs weigh more and in certain situations stop better.
The Earth is Not flat.
Thirteen disc brake threads, and three pages here, and people are still trying to debate the facts as obvious as whether the sun is up during the daytime.
"Hi---What's this thread about?"
it's about people who are done making up their minds and bored, so they are trying to make up other people's minds as well.
The Earth is Not flat.
Thirteen disc brake threads, and three pages here, and people are still trying to debate the facts as obvious as whether the sun is up during the daytime.
"Hi---What's this thread about?"
it's about people who are done making up their minds and bored, so they are trying to make up other people's minds as well.
a) crabon rather than alu rims for the rim brake test
b) sram red calipers rather than shimano dura ace or ultegra which are considered to be better brakes
Correct both problems and it is likely that the disparity in wet weather is reduced substantially.
With a simple hack such as installing linear pull pads, I bet the advantage is either negligible or zero.
#71
Voice of the Industry
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 12,572
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1188 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
8 Posts
I call your posts drivel because that's exactly what they are.
In the meantime, I suggest you find a dictionary and look up the words "clamp" and "slide." Believe it or not, there is a difference. :-)
I didn't make any such proposal. This is a false assertion you have pulled out of your anus as a strawman. If you had actually read my posts, you would know that the calipers in question are manufactured by a shadowy company called "axis," not shimano, campy, sram, cane creek or tektro. My claims are limited to claims about this particular model from one particular brand, although I do acknowledge the possibility that a linear pull pad could very well improve performance on a name brand model.
Furthermore, everyone knows that tektro calipers are of poor quality. I've ridden plenty of models of tektro's and have never ever been favorably impressed. They flat out suck and everyone knows it.
I know it's tough for you to wrap your rather small brain around, but component manufacturers are not staffed by gods. They are average people making average or even below average wages. They have produced such oddities as down tube shifters, cogs without hyperglide ramps, chainrings without superglide ramps, hydraulic brakes that fail and must be recalled, biopace chainrings, single pivot calipers, brake levers made of plastic, resin pedals, etc etc etc etc etc.
Cheap, heavily compromised components are the norm for the bicycling industry, even among the major players.
Bicycles, you see, occupy an odd grey area somewhere between transportation and kid's toys, and the level of engineering reflects the limited budgets, middling or below average engineering skills, and total lack of regulation bicycle component manufacturers face.
If you are a top engineering graduate at MIT, Caltech, Berkeley or Stanford, where do you want to work? At NASA or at SRAM?
"Engineers" or product designers at the bicycle component companies are poorly paid bike geeks who quite frankly cannot compete on the job market elsewhere.
What do you think Chris Chance did when he dropped out of bicycle manufacturing? Did he go for work for BMW or Porsche to help design carreras? No, he became a friggin' reiki "healer!"
The engineering skills of the employees at campy, sram, etc are mediocre at best. Disc brakes are not exactly a new groundbreaking technology designed specifically for bicycles. They are an established technology; yes, it does take some effort to develop lighter parts for bicycles, and it does take time for product proliferation and amortization to bring costs down, but these are issues of refinement and patient marketing, they don't involve extraordinary creativity or intelligence. The tech is already there, waiting to be applied to a new range of products, in this case mtn and road bicycles.
Again, your reading comprehension skills are at a kindergarten level or below. There is no "big three" in cycling componentry first of all. There is shimano and there is everyone else.
2nd, "axis" is not part of the big three. As a matter of fact, no one knows who produces "axis" brakes because specialized isn't saying. How's that for accountability?!?
"Axis" brakes are inferior products. You can find posts everywhere on the net documenting this problem.
And you are right, either axis brakes work or they are a scam. It is the latter. The brakes are in fact a scam. They don't work. At least you got that much right. :-)
3rd, wiping down rims and pads doesn't "solve" any of the problems discs "solve." If you have not figured this out already, and apparently you haven't, there was no problem to "solve." Both rim and disc brakes stop in the wet! The only documented figures we have of an alleged disparity in stopping distances is from GCN. They claim a 3 to 10 meter disparity. HOWEVER, as I have pointed out several times, this is because GCN used carbon rather than alu rims. I estimate the disparity would be halved with alu rims alone.
Use shimano calipers, and the disparity decreases further. Use linear pull pads and I would not be surprised if the gap were completely closed.
As I said earlier, no one will actually conduct such tests since it will expose the fact that discs offer at best a negligible advantage.
In the meantime, I suggest you find a dictionary and look up the words "clamp" and "slide." Believe it or not, there is a difference. :-)
I didn't make any such proposal. This is a false assertion you have pulled out of your anus as a strawman. If you had actually read my posts, you would know that the calipers in question are manufactured by a shadowy company called "axis," not shimano, campy, sram, cane creek or tektro. My claims are limited to claims about this particular model from one particular brand, although I do acknowledge the possibility that a linear pull pad could very well improve performance on a name brand model.
Furthermore, everyone knows that tektro calipers are of poor quality. I've ridden plenty of models of tektro's and have never ever been favorably impressed. They flat out suck and everyone knows it.
I know it's tough for you to wrap your rather small brain around, but component manufacturers are not staffed by gods. They are average people making average or even below average wages. They have produced such oddities as down tube shifters, cogs without hyperglide ramps, chainrings without superglide ramps, hydraulic brakes that fail and must be recalled, biopace chainrings, single pivot calipers, brake levers made of plastic, resin pedals, etc etc etc etc etc.
Cheap, heavily compromised components are the norm for the bicycling industry, even among the major players.
Bicycles, you see, occupy an odd grey area somewhere between transportation and kid's toys, and the level of engineering reflects the limited budgets, middling or below average engineering skills, and total lack of regulation bicycle component manufacturers face.
If you are a top engineering graduate at MIT, Caltech, Berkeley or Stanford, where do you want to work? At NASA or at SRAM?
"Engineers" or product designers at the bicycle component companies are poorly paid bike geeks who quite frankly cannot compete on the job market elsewhere.
What do you think Chris Chance did when he dropped out of bicycle manufacturing? Did he go for work for BMW or Porsche to help design carreras? No, he became a friggin' reiki "healer!"
The engineering skills of the employees at campy, sram, etc are mediocre at best. Disc brakes are not exactly a new groundbreaking technology designed specifically for bicycles. They are an established technology; yes, it does take some effort to develop lighter parts for bicycles, and it does take time for product proliferation and amortization to bring costs down, but these are issues of refinement and patient marketing, they don't involve extraordinary creativity or intelligence. The tech is already there, waiting to be applied to a new range of products, in this case mtn and road bicycles.
Again, your reading comprehension skills are at a kindergarten level or below. There is no "big three" in cycling componentry first of all. There is shimano and there is everyone else.
2nd, "axis" is not part of the big three. As a matter of fact, no one knows who produces "axis" brakes because specialized isn't saying. How's that for accountability?!?
"Axis" brakes are inferior products. You can find posts everywhere on the net documenting this problem.
And you are right, either axis brakes work or they are a scam. It is the latter. The brakes are in fact a scam. They don't work. At least you got that much right. :-)
3rd, wiping down rims and pads doesn't "solve" any of the problems discs "solve." If you have not figured this out already, and apparently you haven't, there was no problem to "solve." Both rim and disc brakes stop in the wet! The only documented figures we have of an alleged disparity in stopping distances is from GCN. They claim a 3 to 10 meter disparity. HOWEVER, as I have pointed out several times, this is because GCN used carbon rather than alu rims. I estimate the disparity would be halved with alu rims alone.
Use shimano calipers, and the disparity decreases further. Use linear pull pads and I would not be surprised if the gap were completely closed.
As I said earlier, no one will actually conduct such tests since it will expose the fact that discs offer at best a negligible advantage.
If you knew more about the subject you would understand there are many examples of creative genius without an engineering, physics or math degree. The creative genius Soichiro Honda, the founder of Honda is called as an engineer when he didn't have any engineering degree for example. He is a Japanese Henry Ford.
So sorry if I take exception to what you wrote but we do share agreement about Axis brakes. They do suck, but they are primitive and mostly a function of bean counters extracting profit. Reverse engineering aka copying other good designs...there is very little invention in any industry....isn't difficult for a graduate engineer. Plenty of great caliper brake designs to benchmark off of.
Last edited by Campag4life; 08-17-17 at 05:09 PM.
#72
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,764
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1975 Post(s)
Liked 232 Times
in
173 Posts
#73
Non omnino gravis
If you can't fit thru axle, ignore the weight and go straight to Shimano closed cam, or DT Swiss RWS if you're feeling fancy.
#74
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,764
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1975 Post(s)
Liked 232 Times
in
173 Posts
An external-cam Ti skewer isn't even in the same league (strength-wise) as a typical thru axle. We're talking about the strength of a 5mm solid rod compared to a 12 or 15mm tube. For strength and clamping force, nothing beats a thru axle.
If you can't fit thru axle, ignore the weight and go straight to Shimano closed cam, or DT Swiss RWS if you're feeling fancy.
If you can't fit thru axle, ignore the weight and go straight to Shimano closed cam, or DT Swiss RWS if you're feeling fancy.
#75
Senior Member
Explaining how your larger brake pads generate more braking force than a smaller version of the same thing would be a great start. I'll leave that ball in your court.
I didn't make any such proposal. This is a false assertion you have pulled out of your anus as a strawman. If you had actually read my posts, you would know that the calipers in question are manufactured by a shadowy company called "axis," not shimano, campy, sram, cane creek or tektro. My claims are limited to claims about this particular model from one particular brand, although I do acknowledge the possibility that a linear pull pad could very well improve performance on a name brand model.
Furthermore, everyone knows that tektro calipers are of poor quality. I've ridden plenty of models of tektro's and have never ever been favorably impressed. They flat out suck and everyone knows it.
Furthermore, everyone knows that tektro calipers are of poor quality. I've ridden plenty of models of tektro's and have never ever been favorably impressed. They flat out suck and everyone knows it.
I know it's tough for you to wrap your rather small brain around, but component manufacturers are not staffed by gods. They are average people making average or even below average wages. They have produced such oddities as down tube shifters, cogs without hyperglide ramps, chainrings without superglide ramps, hydraulic brakes that fail and must be recalled, biopace chainrings, single pivot calipers, brake levers made of plastic, resin pedals, etc etc etc etc etc.
Cheap, heavily compromised components are the norm for the bicycling industry, even among the major players.
Bicycles, you see, occupy an odd grey area somewhere between transportation and kid's toys, and the level of engineering reflects the limited budgets, middling or below average engineering skills, and total lack of regulation bicycle component manufacturers face.
If you are a top engineering graduate at MIT, Caltech, Berkeley or Stanford, where do you want to work? At NASA or at SRAM?
"Engineers" or product designers at the bicycle component companies are poorly paid bike geeks who quite frankly cannot compete on the job market elsewhere.
What do you think Chris Chance did when he dropped out of bicycle manufacturing? Did he go for work for BMW or Porsche to help design carreras? No, he became a friggin' reiki "healer!"
Cheap, heavily compromised components are the norm for the bicycling industry, even among the major players.
Bicycles, you see, occupy an odd grey area somewhere between transportation and kid's toys, and the level of engineering reflects the limited budgets, middling or below average engineering skills, and total lack of regulation bicycle component manufacturers face.
If you are a top engineering graduate at MIT, Caltech, Berkeley or Stanford, where do you want to work? At NASA or at SRAM?
"Engineers" or product designers at the bicycle component companies are poorly paid bike geeks who quite frankly cannot compete on the job market elsewhere.
What do you think Chris Chance did when he dropped out of bicycle manufacturing? Did he go for work for BMW or Porsche to help design carreras? No, he became a friggin' reiki "healer!"
The engineering skills of the employees at campy, sram, etc are mediocre at best. Disc brakes are not exactly a new groundbreaking technology designed specifically for bicycles. They are an established technology; yes, it does take some effort to develop lighter parts for bicycles, and it does take time for product proliferation and amortization to bring costs down, but these are issues of refinement and patient marketing, they don't involve extraordinary creativity or intelligence. The tech is already there, waiting to be applied to a new range of products, in this case mtn and road bicycles.
Again, your reading comprehension skills are at a kindergarten level or below. There is no "big three" in cycling componentry first of all. There is shimano and there is everyone else.
2nd, "axis" is not part of the big three. As a matter of fact, no one knows who produces "axis" brakes because specialized isn't saying. How's that for accountability?!?
"Axis" brakes are inferior products. You can find posts everywhere on the net documenting this problem.
And you are right, either axis brakes work or they are a scam. It is the latter. The brakes are in fact a scam. They don't work. At least you got that much right. :-)
3rd, wiping down rims and pads doesn't "solve" any of the problems discs "solve." If you have not figured this out already, and apparently you haven't, there was no problem to "solve." Both rim and disc brakes stop in the wet! The only documented figures we have of an alleged disparity in stopping distances is from GCN. They claim a 3 to 10 meter disparity. HOWEVER, as I have pointed out several times, this is because GCN used carbon rather than alu rims. I estimate the disparity would be halved with alu rims alone.
Use shimano calipers, and the disparity decreases further. Use linear pull pads and I would not be surprised if the gap were completely closed.
As I said earlier, no one will actually conduct such tests since it will expose the fact that discs offer at best a negligible advantage.
2nd, "axis" is not part of the big three. As a matter of fact, no one knows who produces "axis" brakes because specialized isn't saying. How's that for accountability?!?
"Axis" brakes are inferior products. You can find posts everywhere on the net documenting this problem.
And you are right, either axis brakes work or they are a scam. It is the latter. The brakes are in fact a scam. They don't work. At least you got that much right. :-)
3rd, wiping down rims and pads doesn't "solve" any of the problems discs "solve." If you have not figured this out already, and apparently you haven't, there was no problem to "solve." Both rim and disc brakes stop in the wet! The only documented figures we have of an alleged disparity in stopping distances is from GCN. They claim a 3 to 10 meter disparity. HOWEVER, as I have pointed out several times, this is because GCN used carbon rather than alu rims. I estimate the disparity would be halved with alu rims alone.
Use shimano calipers, and the disparity decreases further. Use linear pull pads and I would not be surprised if the gap were completely closed.
As I said earlier, no one will actually conduct such tests since it will expose the fact that discs offer at best a negligible advantage.