Ironman mystique for a newbie ??
#26
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I 'm firmly in the camp that the Ironmen were very good, late 1980s models, but nothing special relative to the other mid-range Japanese bicycles on the market. They were a huge success for WSI but what made them so was not the bicycle itself but the marketing. They were wise enough to market it as triathlon model and get the license to use the Ironman logo and sign Dave Scott to a five year endorsement deal for 1985, just after he'd won his third consecutive (Kona) Ironman title. If you don't believe the magnitude of marketing in the model's success, just look at the number of 1985 Dave Scott Ironman that surface versus their previous triathlon model, the Comp TA.
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The marketing was excellent, and accurate.
However, one result was the Lemans/RS became a sales leader.
Despite the Ironman being 1/4 to 1/5 the price of Italian bikes, some found it too high priced.
The Lemans/RS at $200-$300 lower sold very well.
The 1987 Bicycling magazine Buyer's Guide is an excellent snapshot of the market at that time.
A marketing example:
However, one result was the Lemans/RS became a sales leader.
Despite the Ironman being 1/4 to 1/5 the price of Italian bikes, some found it too high priced.
The Lemans/RS at $200-$300 lower sold very well.
The 1987 Bicycling magazine Buyer's Guide is an excellent snapshot of the market at that time.
A marketing example:
Last edited by RobbieTunes; 01-28-19 at 10:46 AM.
#28
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TX, that sums it up pretty well. It seems like a good mid level starting point for me that will suit my age and condition. Nice starting point for not too much cash.
A few more pics on the IM data base thread.
Steve
A few more pics on the IM data base thread.
Steve
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Sorry to be such a newbie, but just wondering about things. Not being an aficionado, I am trying to figure out all the high praise for the Ironman, including my new to me 1985. I am 61 and not really a hobbyist of sporty bikes. It seems that there are loads of other fine Japanese makers from this era, that are all seen here too. I would have looked at a nice Lotus I saw advertised for a nice price, but too far away. The Ironman has its own sticky and quite a following.
Was there perhaps greater numbers imported and sold? Actually, not being "in the scene", I don't really even know where they were mostly sold. Was it because they capitalized on the triathlon scene, and hence sold more? It would seem to me quite a few others are of the same quality with the limited, but interesting reading I have done here.
I kinda just stumbled on my purchase. The guy also had a vintage aluminum Trek 1000? for a similar price. In reading, I went for the steel, as I had familiarity as a 40+ year owner of a Schwinn Super Sport.
Steve
Was there perhaps greater numbers imported and sold? Actually, not being "in the scene", I don't really even know where they were mostly sold. Was it because they capitalized on the triathlon scene, and hence sold more? It would seem to me quite a few others are of the same quality with the limited, but interesting reading I have done here.
I kinda just stumbled on my purchase. The guy also had a vintage aluminum Trek 1000? for a similar price. In reading, I went for the steel, as I had familiarity as a 40+ year owner of a Schwinn Super Sport.
Steve
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#30
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I 'm firmly in the camp that the Ironmen were very good, late 1980s models, but nothing special relative to the other mid-range Japanese bicycles on the market. They were a huge success for WSI but what made them so was not the bicycle itself but the marketing. They were wise enough to market it as triathlon model and get the license to use the Ironman logo and sign Dave Scott to a five year endorsement deal for 1985, just after he'd won his third consecutive (Kona) Ironman title. If you don't believe the magnitude of marketing in the model's success, just look at the number of 1985 Dave Scott Ironman that surface versus their previous triathlon model, the Comp TA.
But it was new to me because by the early 1980s I was in college full time and working full time and didn't have time to ride the 1976 Motobecane that I'd commuted on for several years. I didn't even look at bikes again until the 2000s. So I missed the whole Centurion era, and pretty much everything else related to bicycling for a couple of decades.
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PS: I had nothing to do with the sticky. I think it was just an acknowledgement of a universal truth.
#32
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That Cimarron looks pretty comfortable. I may add that to my local search list. I'm still pondering the perfect errand/casual group ride bike.
#33
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And I probably won't be satisfied until I at least try one of the Master models with Biopace chain rings. My knees really want to know whether those oval thingies help on climbs.
I just missed out on a local sale of a Shimano 105 crankset with Biopace 52/42 chain rings, for only $20. Darn me for not checking the bike parts category more often.
I just missed out on a local sale of a Shimano 105 crankset with Biopace 52/42 chain rings, for only $20. Darn me for not checking the bike parts category more often.
#34
Death fork? Naaaah!!
If you want to try them I;ll send you a set of 130/52-42 in steel for postage.
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The Comp TA and them the Ironman bikes when new were a great value when new.
they rode above their price point.
easy fir a shop to sell to someone, usually a guy who wanted a bike above a basic 10 speed and did not want comfort levers- a visual cue to being a disinterested rider.
backed by decent advertising too.
KHS answered with the Turbo and others did too. The ironman line set the tone for a number of years.
they rode above their price point.
easy fir a shop to sell to someone, usually a guy who wanted a bike above a basic 10 speed and did not want comfort levers- a visual cue to being a disinterested rider.
backed by decent advertising too.
KHS answered with the Turbo and others did too. The ironman line set the tone for a number of years.
The Comp TA and Ironmen were no better values than most of the other Japanese mid-range model of the era. When the triathlon craze hit, circa 1983, most companies simply took their existing mid-range models and re-designated them as triathlon bicycles. The existing mid-range models fit the needs of the newbie triathlete in that they were performance orientated and affordable bicycles. Most of these models were in direct competition with each other and none had a clear advantage over the other, so you can't really say that the Comp TA or Ironmen rode above their price point, as they were comparable to the majority of models in their price range. They were definitely a good value for the performance orientated rider, relative to high end models but that's simply the law of diminishing returns, which applies to most products.
KHS actually had the Turbo out prior to the Comp TA. KHS' Turbo goes back tot he 1982 model year. WSI trademarked the Turbo name prior to KHS but apparently KHS was able to prove prior use, causing WSI to abandoned its use. Similarly, they had to abandon Comp TA because it infringed on B,F. Goodrich's automobile tyre of the same name. However, it all worked for WSI, as they were able to license the high recognition Ironman name and logo.
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Well, I'm late to the Ironman game myself. All I can say is I get it...but I don't know why I get it. They are just dang good bike and cheap to get.
And look at this paint, how cool is that?
And look at this paint, how cool is that?
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Sorry, I need this to get ten posts.
#39
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#40
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Being a teen in the late 80's its the paint jobs that drew me to the Ironman's . our local bike shop carried Centurion, Diamond Back, Mongoose and Trek. Although i liked the treks alot, when my Dad and my Brother would do rides, It was really easy to pick out the Ironman's . the treks for the most part blended in with everything else.
So i was drawn to the Ironman's with their bright colors and full 600 component grouppos think, SIS , Biopace, that was the cool stuff at the time. at least for the 13 year old me. then a year later when the Magenta/Yellow Ironman Expert came out, i fell in love with it.
fast forward and finally got my Magenta/Yellow "Miami Vice" Ironman... and then a Bright Marine Green/ White
1987 Master and Expert
1988 Master
So i was drawn to the Ironman's with their bright colors and full 600 component grouppos think, SIS , Biopace, that was the cool stuff at the time. at least for the 13 year old me. then a year later when the Magenta/Yellow Ironman Expert came out, i fell in love with it.
fast forward and finally got my Magenta/Yellow "Miami Vice" Ironman... and then a Bright Marine Green/ White
1987 Master and Expert
1988 Master
#41
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Sometimes, the weight of subjective opinions veers towards objective.
Engineers almost never believe in magic. Mojo ain't numbers.
Next, you'll say the original Asics Gel Lite wasn't the best running shoe ever. Oh, c'mon!
Last edited by RobbieTunes; 01-29-19 at 06:51 PM.
#43
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We can compare price points and comparable offerings until Mount Fuji erupts, but that will never fully address the question of mystique. Mystique isn’t something that can be determined through a Consumer Reports-style table.
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The Comp TA and Ironmen were no better values than most of the other Japanese mid-range model of the era. When the triathlon craze hit, circa 1983, most companies simply took their existing mid-range models and re-designated them as triathlon bicycles. The existing mid-range models fit the needs of the newbie triathlete in that they were performance orientated and affordable bicycles. Most of these models were in direct competition with each other and none had a clear advantage over the other, so you can't really say that the Comp TA or Ironmen rode above their price point, as they were comparable to the majority of models in their price range. They were definitely a good value for the performance orientated rider, relative to high end models but that's simply the law of diminishing returns, which applies to most products.
KHS actually had the Turbo out prior to the Comp TA. KHS' Turbo goes back tot he 1982 model year. WSI trademarked the Turbo name prior to KHS but apparently KHS was able to prove prior use, causing WSI to abandoned its use. Similarly, they had to abandon Comp TA because it infringed on B,F. Goodrich's automobile tyre of the same name. However, it all worked for WSI, as they were able to license the high recognition Ironman name and logo.
KHS actually had the Turbo out prior to the Comp TA. KHS' Turbo goes back tot he 1982 model year. WSI trademarked the Turbo name prior to KHS but apparently KHS was able to prove prior use, causing WSI to abandoned its use. Similarly, they had to abandon Comp TA because it infringed on B,F. Goodrich's automobile tyre of the same name. However, it all worked for WSI, as they were able to license the high recognition Ironman name and logo.
I think it was geometry decisions and tire selection that nudged the Ironman to getting the nod. (prior to the unicrown fork versions... I think that was OK but an error)
The shop I worked for sold KHS, they did well with them. If in the selling conversation the Centurion offerings came up, (and often did, a shop down the street sold them) The owner would swap out the wheels and suggest a second test ride. Made a few sales that way for the Specialized tires or in a few cases tubulars even. Which brought up the ultimate upsell, a set of "race wheels".
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What gives any bike, really any object for that matter, mystique? Take a look at the bikes that you consider the best, the grails. Now honestly ask yourself if there are real, concrete reasons why those are the best bikes to you. I'm guessing you cannot find any real reasons. I never did understand the jonesing over red bikes with white decals. Then I saw one in person. There was an aura around it! Now I understand. Placebo effect with the IM? Maybe, but you push one through the transition area even now and rack it. You will see how real the mystique is. It doesn't matter why, it is there.
#47
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I posted a similar thread a few years ago--even used the apt word "mystique" in the title. Two Ironman Experts and a Semi--Pro later, I blame @RobbieTunes.
For me it's not that they are better than other excellent bikes, but that the forum produces a huge fund of enthusiasm for them. Arbitrary or not, it increases my enjoyment building and riding them.
I find this is true of the forum and vintage bikes generally.
For me it's not that they are better than other excellent bikes, but that the forum produces a huge fund of enthusiasm for them. Arbitrary or not, it increases my enjoyment building and riding them.
I find this is true of the forum and vintage bikes generally.
Last edited by belacqua; 01-29-19 at 08:46 PM.
#50
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