Uncaged bottom bracket bearings?
06-11-19, 07:28 PM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Evanston, IL
Posts: 5,094
Bikes: many
Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1444 Post(s)
Liked 1,393 Times
in
761 Posts
Uncaged bottom bracket bearings?
I bought a Sugino MW-68 bottom bracket to use with an early Superbe crank on my Griffon. The cups and spindle are in good shape. It came with loose bearings. Is there any reason to prefer caged bearings over loose other than the challenge of keeping loose bearings in place during assembly?
06-11-19, 07:37 PM
#2
~>~
No there is not, but I've never seen a Japanese OEM BB from the '60's onward w/ loose bearings.
Used I'd be very careful to get the bearing size/number correct.
-Bandera
Used I'd be very careful to get the bearing size/number correct.
-Bandera
Last edited by Bandera; 06-11-19 at 07:42 PM.
06-12-19, 01:09 AM
#4
señor miembro
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Pac NW
Posts: 6,624
Bikes: '70s - '80s Campagnolo
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3888 Post(s)
Liked 6,488 Times
in
3,211 Posts
06-12-19, 05:28 AM
#6
www.theheadbadge.com
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,513
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2422 Post(s)
Liked 4,395 Times
in
2,092 Posts
Glob those BB cups full of nice, sticky grease, and pop them in. You should be fine 
-Kurt
-Kurt
__________________
06-12-19, 07:44 AM
#7
Senior Member
Caged bearings are superior to loose and there is no point unless you just want to be really really old school . Lots of conjecture about being able to install more loose balls versus a cage , but that is all that it is. Those cages arent there for a cost savings, they maintain properly spacing
06-12-19, 08:14 AM
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Down Under
Posts: 1,936
Bikes: A steel framed 26" off road tourer from a manufacturer who thinks they are cool. Giant Anthem. Trek 720 Multiroad pub bike. 10 kids bikes all under 20". Assorted waifs and unfinished projects.
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1188 Post(s)
Liked 1,154 Times
in
640 Posts
Caged bearings are superior to loose and there is no point unless you just want to be really really old school . Lots of conjecture about being able to install more loose balls versus a cage , but that is all that it is. Those cages arent there for a cost savings, they maintain properly spacing
Cartridge type roller bearings (except for full complement) have cages because of the way they are assembled. The balls are placed together in the outer race, the inner race inserted then the balls evenly distributed and the cage fitted to maintain spacing so the bearing doesn't fall apart. This is a different situation to a bottom bracket. Full complement bearings have indents in the side of the races so the balls can be inserted one by one with the indents lined up.
06-12-19, 08:25 AM
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Middle Earth (aka IA)
Posts: 20,435
Bikes: A bunch of old bikes and a few new ones
Mentioned: 178 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5888 Post(s)
Liked 3,471 Times
in
2,079 Posts
Suntour also made caged bearings that could take 11 to a side. I'd run them loose 11 to a side rather than use a cage that only takes 9.
06-12-19, 08:55 AM
#10
Senior Member
@Trevtassie
I am going to assume you are aware that many engineering studies have been performed concerning this very topic. Yes there is definitely manufacturing efficiency and cost savings in using caged balls , however they are also better at what they do.
There is a lot of information available out there concerning this very topic. As I said earlier if you want to use them because it makes you feel better being a traditionalist fine, there is no performance benefit to be realized however .
I am going to assume you are aware that many engineering studies have been performed concerning this very topic. Yes there is definitely manufacturing efficiency and cost savings in using caged balls , however they are also better at what they do.
There is a lot of information available out there concerning this very topic. As I said earlier if you want to use them because it makes you feel better being a traditionalist fine, there is no performance benefit to be realized however .
06-12-19, 11:10 AM
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Madison, WI USA
Posts: 6,157
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2363 Post(s)
Liked 1,749 Times
in
1,191 Posts
+1; keyword sticky. For those who like to use waterproof marine grease, I found (by chance) that Liquid Wrench brand marine grease (reddish [almost Shimano] color) is definitely stickier than the other brands you typically find at a FLAPS or home store.
06-12-19, 11:17 AM
#12
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Evanston, IL
Posts: 5,094
Bikes: many
Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1444 Post(s)
Liked 1,393 Times
in
761 Posts
Thanks for all the responses. The spacing argument seemed like it would be worth investigating, so I hunted around a bit to see what Jobst Brandt had to say about the topic. In this rec.bicycles.tech thread, he wrote:
Hmmm. Sir Sheldon disagrees:
Unfortunately, we can't ask either Jobst or Sheldon. 
I do have some Campy caged bearings, not in front of me, though what I've read suggests they probably hold 11 bearings. The reason for buying the Sugino was that I lacked a suitable Campy spindle. This bb was cheap enough that even if I didn't use the cups and bearings, I'd have a spindle I could use. I think I will try 11 loose bearings and see how it goes. Unless the ride is so magical that I sell every other bike I own and start riding 20k miles per year, based on what I've read I rather suspect there will be little effective lifetime wear difference between 9 caged, 11 caged or 11 loose bearings.
Full complement ball bearings, as I mentioned, can also have cages,
whose purpose is ease and reliability of assembly rather than to alter
friction or wear characteristics.... The reason for ball or roller cages in
bearings is for assembly rather than a load related one except in ones
where the cage allows using fewer balls for economic effect.
whose purpose is ease and reliability of assembly rather than to alter
friction or wear characteristics.... The reason for ball or roller cages in
bearings is for assembly rather than a load related one except in ones
where the cage allows using fewer balls for economic effect.
Most newer bicycles come with "caged" bearing balls-the balls are held in a metal or plastic retainer. This makes it easier to install the balls, but usually at a cost in performance. A standard three-piece type bottom bracket takes 11 loose 1/4-inch balls per side. Most retainers hold fewer balls, so each ball and its contact points with the cup and cone are more heavily stressed. This causes higher friction and more rapid wear.
I do have some Campy caged bearings, not in front of me, though what I've read suggests they probably hold 11 bearings. The reason for buying the Sugino was that I lacked a suitable Campy spindle. This bb was cheap enough that even if I didn't use the cups and bearings, I'd have a spindle I could use. I think I will try 11 loose bearings and see how it goes. Unless the ride is so magical that I sell every other bike I own and start riding 20k miles per year, based on what I've read I rather suspect there will be little effective lifetime wear difference between 9 caged, 11 caged or 11 loose bearings.
06-12-19, 12:13 PM
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Madison, WI USA
Posts: 6,157
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2363 Post(s)
Liked 1,749 Times
in
1,191 Posts
06-12-19, 12:23 PM
#14
~>~
06-12-19, 12:34 PM
#15
Old fart
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 24,787
Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3588 Post(s)
Liked 3,400 Times
in
1,934 Posts
https://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.c...m_id=US-GR1411
06-12-19, 01:35 PM
#16
Bike Butcher of Portland
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,639
Bikes: It's complicated.
Mentioned: 1299 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4682 Post(s)
Liked 5,800 Times
in
2,284 Posts
Sealed.
__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
06-12-19, 01:41 PM
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Middle Earth (aka IA)
Posts: 20,435
Bikes: A bunch of old bikes and a few new ones
Mentioned: 178 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5888 Post(s)
Liked 3,471 Times
in
2,079 Posts
Campagnolo bottom bracket bearing retainers hold 11 balls each. Other companies also used 11-ball retainers, and replacements are available. These will work with pretty much any bottom bracket that uses 1/4" balls:
https://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.c...m_id=US-GR1411
https://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.c...m_id=US-GR1411
06-12-19, 04:35 PM
#20
Classic, Vintage Mechanic
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Posts: 117
Bikes: '65 Legnano Gran Primeo || '76 Holdsworth Mistral || '82 Specialized Stumpjumper
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked 40 Times
in
25 Posts
@Trevtassie
I am going to assume you are aware that many engineering studies have been performed concerning this very topic. Yes there is definitely manufacturing efficiency and cost savings in using caged balls , however they are also better at what they do...
I am going to assume you are aware that many engineering studies have been performed concerning this very topic. Yes there is definitely manufacturing efficiency and cost savings in using caged balls , however they are also better at what they do...
06-12-19, 05:29 PM
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Down Under
Posts: 1,936
Bikes: A steel framed 26" off road tourer from a manufacturer who thinks they are cool. Giant Anthem. Trek 720 Multiroad pub bike. 10 kids bikes all under 20". Assorted waifs and unfinished projects.
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1188 Post(s)
Liked 1,154 Times
in
640 Posts
There are advantages in high speed bearings, especially to do with grease retention and friction between the balls when centripetal forces come into play . There aren't any high speed bearings on a bicycle, derailleur pulleys maybe get into the bottom end of medium speed bearings. There's probably not even that much point using ceramic bearings, they are actually designed for extremely high speeds, where the lightness of the rolling elements means less angular forces on the outside race.
06-12-19, 05:55 PM
#22
señor miembro
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Pac NW
Posts: 6,624
Bikes: '70s - '80s Campagnolo
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3888 Post(s)
Liked 6,488 Times
in
3,211 Posts
06-12-19, 08:49 PM
#23
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Evanston, IL
Posts: 5,094
Bikes: many
Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1444 Post(s)
Liked 1,393 Times
in
761 Posts
OK, I installed the Sugino MW-68 with Campagnolo caged bearings. Thanks for the inputs. I suppose next time I need to replace the bottom bracket on this bike I can go "full @gugie" and source a Phil bottom bracket.
06-12-19, 10:04 PM
#24
Senior Member
Will the Vice President of engineering at a company which builds precision manufacturing equipment do?
Caged balls are widely deployed in motion systems throughout industry. Whether used in ball bearings, linear guides, or ball screw actuators, caged balls bring both performance and practicality. The addition of the cage minimizes wear, reduces noise, and extends maintenance intervals. The technology also significantly boosts the lifetime of the device compared to non-cage versions. These attributes have made caged balls the go-to technology for a variety of applications.
all cages provide a number of benefits, including:
- Minimizing metal-to-metal contact
- Ensuring orderly ball movement
- Improving high-speed performance
- Retaining grease for longer lifetime
The ability to retain lubricant reduces maintenance, decreases unscheduled downtime, and enhances performance. It is also useful from a business standpoint. OEMs typically specify lubrication intervals for their equipment, but end-users often don’t comply. Designing in caged balls means that even if the asset owner doesn’t follow proper maintenance procedures, the OEM can still have confidence that the equipment will operate as expected.
Caged balls are not always a perfect fit, of course. In a few cases, non-caged balls may be a better fit:
Caged balls are not always a perfect fit, of course. In a few cases, non-caged balls may be a better fit:
- Applications with temperatures over 80°C
- High-vacuum applications
- Extreme-radiation environments
- Applications with extremely light loads, for which the friction introduced by ball cages can present issues
I have read countless articles and technical studies and have yet to find a single one that advocates loose bearings as being superior for most applications where caged bearings are used. I am not against you or anyone else using loose balls because it makes you feel better, but it does not outperform quality caged ball bearings .
06-12-19, 10:05 PM
#25
Senior Member