On spinning vintage hubs... How smooth is “smooth?”
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 1,326
Mentioned: 64 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 535 Post(s)
Liked 346 Times
in
196 Posts
On spinning vintage hubs... How smooth is “smooth?”
Take these early 80’s Record hubs for instance. Opened them up, cleaned ‘em, and observed beautiful surfaces inside. Repacked with grade 25 loose balls, and a liberal amount of Mobile 1 synthetic red. (NOTE: Previously & mistakenly mentioned Sta-Lube as that is being used in BB & HS but not the hubs)
Adjusting cones for a minor amount of axel play that disappears when the QR is closed, the hubs spin nicely, quietly, and they spin a long time.
Here’s my hang up though... Off the frame, spinning them in hand, I can sense less than “perfect” surface conditions within the hubs. Let’s call it the sensation of minor surface imperfections, or perhaps the evidence of a certain minor degree of friction. In other word’s they’re not what I would describe as “buttery smooth.”
So what are your thoughts when it comes to vintage cup, and cone hubs? With the likes of high end hubs such as Campy Record, in observably good condition, and assumed to be properly adjusted, is it reasonable to expect a bit of surface feedback when spun by hand? Or should the action of such a hub be held to a higher standard, and have an almost “invisible” feeling in the hand? Is that how smooth “buttery smooth is?
Adjusting cones for a minor amount of axel play that disappears when the QR is closed, the hubs spin nicely, quietly, and they spin a long time.
Here’s my hang up though... Off the frame, spinning them in hand, I can sense less than “perfect” surface conditions within the hubs. Let’s call it the sensation of minor surface imperfections, or perhaps the evidence of a certain minor degree of friction. In other word’s they’re not what I would describe as “buttery smooth.”
So what are your thoughts when it comes to vintage cup, and cone hubs? With the likes of high end hubs such as Campy Record, in observably good condition, and assumed to be properly adjusted, is it reasonable to expect a bit of surface feedback when spun by hand? Or should the action of such a hub be held to a higher standard, and have an almost “invisible” feeling in the hand? Is that how smooth “buttery smooth is?
Last edited by deux jambes; 08-22-19 at 08:45 PM.
#3
Extraordinary Magnitude
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Waukesha WI
Posts: 13,653
Bikes: 1978 Trek TX700; 1978/79 Trek 736; 1984 Specialized Stumpjumper Sport; 1984 Schwinn Voyageur SP; 1985 Trek 620; 1985 Trek 720; 1986 Trek 400 Elance; 1987 Schwinn High Sierra; 1990 Miyata 1000LT
Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2609 Post(s)
Liked 1,709 Times
in
939 Posts
Here’s my hang up though... Off the frame, spinning them in hand, I can sense less than “perfect” surface conditions within the hubs. Let’s call it the sensation of minor surface imperfections, or perhaps the evidence of a certain minor degree of friction. In other word’s they’re not what I would describe as “buttery smooth.”
So what are your thoughts when it comes to vintage cup, and cone hubs? With the likes of high end hubs such as Campy Record, in observably good condition, and assumed to be properly adjusted, is it reasonable to expect a bit of surface feedback when spun by hand? Or should the action of such a hub be held to a higher standard, and have an almost “invisible” feeling in the hand? Is that how smooth “buttery smooth is?
The smoothest cup and cone hubs I have are the Maillard 700 hubs.
It's a hard call as to which sealed bearing hubs seem the smoothest...
__________________
*Recipient of the 2006 Time Magazine "Person Of The Year" Award*
Commence to jigglin’ huh?!?!
"But hey, always love to hear from opinionated amateurs." -says some guy to Mr. Marshall.
Commence to jigglin’ huh?!?!
"But hey, always love to hear from opinionated amateurs." -says some guy to Mr. Marshall.
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NW Burbs, Chicago
Posts: 12,083
Mentioned: 201 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3026 Post(s)
Liked 3,903 Times
in
1,426 Posts
Hands down without comparison (in my experience), the smoothest hubs I have ever known are a NIB set of 1937 FB hubs. Still have them. Still quite surprised at their perfection.
Likes For iab:
#5
Senior Member
FWIW, I noticed back way back when that Campy hubs were never as glass smooth as new if they were rebuilt with aftermarket grade 25 bearings. As a result, I only used OEM campy bearings on my own hubs. If someone has an explanation for this, I'm all ears.
Most of the time I just cleaned everything and put it back in with fresh grease. There's no need to replace the balls every time you repack.
When Campy Record hubs were new they spun glass smooth, like a quality modern cartridge sealed bearing hub. If they are not like that now, could also be some subtle invisible wear or slightly bent axles. There's always the issue of getting grit in the grease.
Most of the time I just cleaned everything and put it back in with fresh grease. There's no need to replace the balls every time you repack.
When Campy Record hubs were new they spun glass smooth, like a quality modern cartridge sealed bearing hub. If they are not like that now, could also be some subtle invisible wear or slightly bent axles. There's always the issue of getting grit in the grease.
Likes For Salamandrine:
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: GWN
Posts: 2,538
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1858 Post(s)
Liked 606 Times
in
403 Posts
FWIW, I noticed back way back when that Campy hubs were never as glass smooth as new if they were rebuilt with aftermarket grade 25 bearings. As a result, I only used OEM campy bearings on my own hubs. If someone has an explanation for this, I'm all ears.
Most of the time I just cleaned everything and put it back in with fresh grease. There's no need to replace the balls every time you repack.
When Campy Record hubs were new they spun glass smooth, like a quality modern cartridge sealed bearing hub. If they are not like that now, could also be some subtle invisible wear or slightly bent axles. There's always the issue of getting grit in the grease.
Most of the time I just cleaned everything and put it back in with fresh grease. There's no need to replace the balls every time you repack.
When Campy Record hubs were new they spun glass smooth, like a quality modern cartridge sealed bearing hub. If they are not like that now, could also be some subtle invisible wear or slightly bent axles. There's always the issue of getting grit in the grease.
The nicest Hubs I have now are a NOS set of Swiss Edco's.
But alot of Companies made great Hubs, Dura Ace 7400 and 7700 come to mind. And of course Campag Record.
#7
señor miembro
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Pac NW
Posts: 6,659
Bikes: '70s - '80s Campagnolo
Mentioned: 93 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3919 Post(s)
Liked 6,554 Times
in
3,248 Posts
OP is saying his Record hub races look smooth, work fine, but don't spin smooth in hand. (Does he mention the cones?) I wouldn't say that's normal for the Record hubs I've owned. If a Record cone I'm gonna keep has wear, I try to replace it. It's usually the non-campy hubs that need a lot of attention. But I have had some trouble with bent Record dust caps that brush the cone...
#8
Rustbelt Rider
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canton, OH
Posts: 9,105
Bikes: 1990 Trek 1420 - 1978 Raleigh Professional - 1973 Schwinn Collegiate - 1974 Schwinn Suburban
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 261 Post(s)
Liked 372 Times
in
177 Posts
Well, that is a pretty good question. I’m not 100% sure I know the right answer myself, but I can speak from my experiences. I’ve rarely, if ever repacked a hub and felt absolute perfection. I’ve gotten pretty close on quality hubs, but I’ve always been able to feel the bearings when the axle is in my hand. I just work until I feel confident that I’ve hit the spot between tight and too loose. I err to the loose side.
The only Campy hubs that I can remember were a pair of tipo hubs. The weyless and Suntour sealed hubs have been pretty close to sublime.
The only Campy hubs that I can remember were a pair of tipo hubs. The weyless and Suntour sealed hubs have been pretty close to sublime.
#9
~>~
Install said wheels w/ proper closure of the OEM QRs and ride for a few dozens of miles letting the excess grease find it's way out, wipe off same.
Now, w/ the bike in the work stand give the Fr & Rr a good pull, if the wheels don't spin freely w/ zero perceptible vibration and if the Fr eventually swings back and forth oh so slowly balancing the slight valve weight vs the mfg rim sticker: Good to Go.
Otherwise not Perfect, like everything else in Life.
-Bandera
Now, w/ the bike in the work stand give the Fr & Rr a good pull, if the wheels don't spin freely w/ zero perceptible vibration and if the Fr eventually swings back and forth oh so slowly balancing the slight valve weight vs the mfg rim sticker: Good to Go.
Otherwise not Perfect, like everything else in Life.
-Bandera
#10
Senior Member
I always put new balls in everytime I repack. Why would you not? They are cheap. I use grade 10 balls only because I know somebody in the buisness.
The nicest Hubs I have now are a NOS set of Swiss Edco's.
But alot of Companies made great Hubs, Dura Ace 7400 and 7700 come to mind. And of course Campag Record.
The nicest Hubs I have now are a NOS set of Swiss Edco's.
But alot of Companies made great Hubs, Dura Ace 7400 and 7700 come to mind. And of course Campag Record.
BITD my hubs got new balls only for the yearly overhaul. Periodic repacks after riding in the rain or through a stream, no.
#11
Banned.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 27,199
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 378 Post(s)
Liked 1,412 Times
in
912 Posts
When the bike is hamging, and the air currents in the room keep the wheel in motion, the hubs are good.
DA7400
DA7700
DA7900
All are ball bearing.
DA wheelsets, you get sealed bearings.
DA hubs, you get ball bearings.
I've had Record and Super Record, too. Properly packed and adjusted, there is no comparison to great ball bearing hubs.
I've ridden with C&V riders many times.
Once the road tilts downward, nothing else is even close.
DA7400
DA7700
DA7900
All are ball bearing.
DA wheelsets, you get sealed bearings.
DA hubs, you get ball bearings.
I've had Record and Super Record, too. Properly packed and adjusted, there is no comparison to great ball bearing hubs.
I've ridden with C&V riders many times.
Once the road tilts downward, nothing else is even close.
#13
Me duelen las nalgas
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 13,513
Bikes: Centurion Ironman, Trek 5900, Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel
Mentioned: 199 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4560 Post(s)
Liked 2,804 Times
in
1,801 Posts
I'm not sure what the differences are because the guts of loose bearing hubs all look the same, but there seems to be a difference between my various bikes with Shimano Exage and 600 hubs, and Suntour GPX hubs. The Shimano 600 hubs on a Wolber Alpine rim shouldn't be any different from the nearly identical GPX with Araya CTL-600 (the wheelsets look identical at a glance).
But the Wolbers with 600 hubs sure seem to roll more effortlessly. On group rides I often need to brake to avoid coasting past other folks. Even given differences in body weight, bikes, etc., those wheels sure seem to roll nicely. They were that way when I got 'em so I left the wheels alone.
With the Exage and GPX hubs, I redid them to eliminate felt dragging and grittiness. Too many low and mid priced wheelsets come from factories with the hubs set way too tightly. I suspect the assemblers don't spend much time on anything but the top tier wheels, so they crank down the cones tight and call it a day. Problem is, after awhile the bearings crunch through the thin surface hardening and pit the cones, while the stamped races are still good. So I'll redo the hubs. It takes a few tries to get the cones just right, where there's no slack but no gritty feeling either. I suspect that's why the factories don't bother -- it probably takes them two or three tries and isn't cost effective for mid priced hubs.
But the Wolbers with 600 hubs sure seem to roll more effortlessly. On group rides I often need to brake to avoid coasting past other folks. Even given differences in body weight, bikes, etc., those wheels sure seem to roll nicely. They were that way when I got 'em so I left the wheels alone.
With the Exage and GPX hubs, I redid them to eliminate felt dragging and grittiness. Too many low and mid priced wheelsets come from factories with the hubs set way too tightly. I suspect the assemblers don't spend much time on anything but the top tier wheels, so they crank down the cones tight and call it a day. Problem is, after awhile the bearings crunch through the thin surface hardening and pit the cones, while the stamped races are still good. So I'll redo the hubs. It takes a few tries to get the cones just right, where there's no slack but no gritty feeling either. I suspect that's why the factories don't bother -- it probably takes them two or three tries and isn't cost effective for mid priced hubs.
#14
~>~
Wheel truing machines back-when required Zero side-play at the hub w/o QR compression, mfgs provided that for OEM wheel builds at the factory SOP.
It was up to the mechanic at the shop on higher-end bikes to re-set for "just a touch" of side-play for proper QR compression and a smoothly spinning wheel.
Did that always happen?
Of course not, the results of running a slightly tight set of hubs out of the box and indifferent maintenance in the intervening time >40 years on are mixed at best.
Caveat Emptor.
On re-builds you have the chance to do it properly, which does take practice.
Does that "matter" in "performance"? You decide.
-Bandera
It was up to the mechanic at the shop on higher-end bikes to re-set for "just a touch" of side-play for proper QR compression and a smoothly spinning wheel.
Did that always happen?
Of course not, the results of running a slightly tight set of hubs out of the box and indifferent maintenance in the intervening time >40 years on are mixed at best.
Caveat Emptor.
On re-builds you have the chance to do it properly, which does take practice.
Does that "matter" in "performance"? You decide.
-Bandera
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,515
Mentioned: 102 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1650 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 850 Times
in
553 Posts
I have three bikes with Campy Record LF hubs with the oil ports on them and they are the smoothest spinning hubs I ever had.
As described by many, they are as smooth as glass. I also never had the readjust them after servicing. Proves that Campy really took QA/QC seriously with those hubs very seriously and produced them to a very high stsndard. Only reason why they might develop any grinding would be either the bearings or races got damaged somehow.....
As described by many, they are as smooth as glass. I also never had the readjust them after servicing. Proves that Campy really took QA/QC seriously with those hubs very seriously and produced them to a very high stsndard. Only reason why they might develop any grinding would be either the bearings or races got damaged somehow.....
#16
Senior Member
That's the thing. 40+ years later, with mystery maintenance in the intervening time, and who knows what happened. New Campy hubs BITD were like magic, so smooth. But that was a long time ago. These days, treat it nicely and who cares. If it rolls smoothly enough, it's fine.
#17
aka: Dr. Cannondale
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 7,758
Mentioned: 235 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2165 Post(s)
Liked 3,484 Times
in
1,223 Posts
I've always felt that 'glide' is important in bicycle wheels. I actually measure this on a known hill and measure how many MPH are increased between wheel sets without pedaling.
I also always use Phil grease. In my experience, it results in the best glide. And I seldom replace ball bearings. Perhaps my extensive experience with miniature bearings in the radio control racing business has given me a slight edge in setup feel. Who knows?
But if you want to see good glide in action, perhaps some day Robbie will post that video of him following me down the back side of Thunder Ridge last year on the Merckx Century with tricolor hubs. Actually, would not mind seeing that one myself...
I also always use Phil grease. In my experience, it results in the best glide. And I seldom replace ball bearings. Perhaps my extensive experience with miniature bearings in the radio control racing business has given me a slight edge in setup feel. Who knows?
But if you want to see good glide in action, perhaps some day Robbie will post that video of him following me down the back side of Thunder Ridge last year on the Merckx Century with tricolor hubs. Actually, would not mind seeing that one myself...
__________________
Hard at work in the Secret Underground Laboratory...
Hard at work in the Secret Underground Laboratory...
#18
~>~
#19
Passista
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,638
Bikes: 1998 Pinarello Asolo, 1992 KHS Montaña pro, 1980 Raleigh DL-1, IGH Hybrid, IGH Utility
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 883 Post(s)
Liked 737 Times
in
405 Posts
Of course it's nice to have smooth, spinning-for-minutes-in-the-air hubs, but I doubt that has any effect on actual riding, placebo aside.
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Baton Rouge La
Posts: 1,215
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 394 Post(s)
Liked 346 Times
in
230 Posts
Take these early 80’s Record hubs for instance. Opened them up, cleaned ‘em, and observed beautiful surfaces inside. Repacked with grade 25 loose balls, and a liberal amount of Sta-Lube marine grease.
Adjusting cones for a minor amount of axel play that disappears when the QR is closed, the hubs spin nicely, quietly, and they spin a long time.
Here’s my hang up though... Off the frame, spinning them in hand, I can sense less than “perfect” surface conditions within the hubs. Let’s call it the sensation of minor surface imperfections, or perhaps the evidence of a certain minor degree of friction. In other word’s they’re not what I would describe as “buttery smooth.”
So what are your thoughts when it comes to vintage cup, and cone hubs? With the likes of high end hubs such as Campy Record, in observably good condition, and assumed to be properly adjusted, is it reasonable to expect a bit of surface feedback when spun by hand? Or should the action of such a hub be held to a higher standard, and have an almost “invisible” feeling in the hand? Is that how smooth “buttery smooth is?
Adjusting cones for a minor amount of axel play that disappears when the QR is closed, the hubs spin nicely, quietly, and they spin a long time.
Here’s my hang up though... Off the frame, spinning them in hand, I can sense less than “perfect” surface conditions within the hubs. Let’s call it the sensation of minor surface imperfections, or perhaps the evidence of a certain minor degree of friction. In other word’s they’re not what I would describe as “buttery smooth.”
So what are your thoughts when it comes to vintage cup, and cone hubs? With the likes of high end hubs such as Campy Record, in observably good condition, and assumed to be properly adjusted, is it reasonable to expect a bit of surface feedback when spun by hand? Or should the action of such a hub be held to a higher standard, and have an almost “invisible” feeling in the hand? Is that how smooth “buttery smooth is?
If you figure out how to achieve consistently, butterly smooth hub rebuilds, please let us know how you did it.
Of course, in all of the above, I'm talking about races with no observable pitting or excessive wear, or bent axles.
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,305
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3464 Post(s)
Liked 2,834 Times
in
1,998 Posts
45 years ago it was mechanics tale that one could reuse bearing balls provided they looked bright.
AND you kept the bearings on that ONE hub on the same side.
otherwise one used Campagnolo bearings- they were by SKF and allegedly the top grade.
i got as a gift once way back “grade 10” bearings- I forget the precision difference but they did spin nicely.
today- I keep the same side tradition and use Finishline grease.
adjust with my loose dropouts- skewer tensioned to confirm adjustment.
when I feel ANY roughness- redo the job.
AND you kept the bearings on that ONE hub on the same side.
otherwise one used Campagnolo bearings- they were by SKF and allegedly the top grade.
i got as a gift once way back “grade 10” bearings- I forget the precision difference but they did spin nicely.
today- I keep the same side tradition and use Finishline grease.
adjust with my loose dropouts- skewer tensioned to confirm adjustment.
when I feel ANY roughness- redo the job.
#22
I never finish anyth
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Western KY
Posts: 1,114
Bikes: 2008 Merckx LXM, 2003 Giant XTC mtb, 2001 Lemond Alpe d'Huez, 1997 Lemond Zurich, 1989 Cannondale ST, 1988 Masi Nuovo Strada, 1983 Pinarello Turismo
Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 294 Post(s)
Liked 137 Times
in
86 Posts
The preload setting on some Campy hubs can be set while the wheel is on the bike and the QR closed. These are the best, IMO. Close the QR, loosen the clamp screw, set the preload, tighten the clamp screw. Perfection. It really doesn't get any better than that.
__________________
Dale, NL4T
Dale, NL4T
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Baton Rouge La
Posts: 1,215
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 394 Post(s)
Liked 346 Times
in
230 Posts
I get that. You spin them on the bike on the stand and they spin and spin til the cows come home. But you hold the wheel and spin it- and you can feel... "grinding."
The smoothest cup and cone hubs I have are the Maillard 700 hubs.
It's a hard call as to which sealed bearing hubs seem the smoothest...
The smoothest cup and cone hubs I have are the Maillard 700 hubs.
It's a hard call as to which sealed bearing hubs seem the smoothest...
And, believe it or not, I acquired an '83 Trek 720 recently, sure I was going to have to replace the Helicomatic hubs based on my past experience with them, but they too were unbelievably smooth. They were 700 series Helicomatics. Kinda blew my mind.
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Baton Rouge La
Posts: 1,215
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 394 Post(s)
Liked 346 Times
in
230 Posts
45 years ago it was mechanics tale that one could reuse bearing balls provided they looked bright.
AND you kept the bearings on that ONE hub on the same side.
otherwise one used Campagnolo bearings- they were by SKF and allegedly the top grade.
i got as a gift once way back “grade 10” bearings- I forget the precision difference but they did spin nicely.
today- I keep the same side tradition and use Finishline grease.
adjust with my loose dropouts- skewer tensioned to confirm adjustment.
when I feel ANY roughness- redo the job.
AND you kept the bearings on that ONE hub on the same side.
otherwise one used Campagnolo bearings- they were by SKF and allegedly the top grade.
i got as a gift once way back “grade 10” bearings- I forget the precision difference but they did spin nicely.
today- I keep the same side tradition and use Finishline grease.
adjust with my loose dropouts- skewer tensioned to confirm adjustment.
when I feel ANY roughness- redo the job.
#25
aka Tom Reingold
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 40,560
Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem
Mentioned: 513 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7379 Post(s)
Liked 2,534 Times
in
1,474 Posts
Not true at all. There is a lot of leverage over them, and there is a lot of inertia. If you can feel friction in the hubs while riding, they are pretty much useless hubs. There can be far too much friction in a hub even when you don't feel it.
Spinning the axle in your fingers, a small amount of perceptible friction is OK, and you won't possibly feel it on the road.
Spinning the axle in your fingers, a small amount of perceptible friction is OK, and you won't possibly feel it on the road.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.