jadocs

I think you are right. Same thing with Air Guns. Some states do not allow sending that product to a residence even though you can purchase the product in that same state. That's government for you....and nothing about California would surprise me.

eduskator

That's the result of too many systems, rules, policies, laws, regulations, etc. interfering with each other

eduskator

For all of the proven benefits (enhanced performance & extended lifespan of chain & drive train components), I don't mind soaking mine in a hot bath of wax once in a while

canklecat

Yup. The main advantage to molten wax (no added oil or solvent) appears to be low wear where the chain, cogs and chainrings rub together. It doesn't create an abrasive paste like wet lubes. Surfaces are easy to wipe clean with a dry paper towel.

But without disassembling a chain to sample wear on the internal bearing surfaces, preferably by a lab with appropriate expertise, we don't really know the effects. So far I haven't seen any studies specifying that kind of detailed analysis.

That will be my next step. I'm in an apartment now and can't mess with a bunch of flammable or combustible solvents. It would have been convenient in my former rural home where we always had some kind of maintenance projects going on in the barn.

And I'd occasionally use small amounts of gasoline as solvent out in the garden, far from any ignition source. Even then the risks were easy to demonstrate. I remember showing a cousin why his cavalier handling of gasoline was so dangerous. He'd already set fire to his property and our common fence line twice, requiring a visit from the volunteer fire department. He wasn't a bad guy, just a bit thick headed. His granddad was the same way. I remember back in the early 1970s watching the older guy trying to burn out the cattails overtaking the lake shore by tossing coffee cans full of gasoline onto an already raging fire. I told my granddad to keep a hose handy and be ready to call the fire department and ambulance. Granddad and I did it the hard way, hacking down the cattails and pulling up the roots, but that's the only effective method.

On a cool, damp day I poured a small amount of gas, maybe 1/4 cup, on a burn pile from dead wood from the orchard, etc. I made sure the gas can was 50 yards away and nothing else was at risk -- large open area covered in damp grass. I waited about a minute and told my cousin to step way back, about 10 yards. Even then the gas vapors had surrounded our feet, hugging the ground, and there was a brief flash and "WHUMP!" sound as we were encircled in flame. I knew it wasn't dangerous but it was worth it to watch him jump and shriek. I think that cured him of his recklessness with gasoline.

eduskator

Measuring chain stretching is a good way to start. It seems like you will get 2-3x more life out of a properly waxed chain VS one that was lubed with shelves products. Oz Cycle on Youtube has done a lot of testing over the last years and his videos are based on empirical data most of the time; he is quite the chain waxing guru!

Test results:

tombakerim

The path to inventing grease is complicated and thorny, but Greta Tunberg, of course, natural wax approves

DrIsotope

I would say that in practical use, over the span of some 30,000 miles, that wax will increase the life of an 11-speed chain about 10% compared to wet lubes.

Wax is cleaner, quieter, and in the long run, cheaper. I don't expect sudden increases in chain longevity, as the chain is still doing what the chain always does.

eduskator

30 000 miles for a chain? What kind you using?

Pretty sure you hit the .5 - .75 stretch mark after 5000miles or less.

DrIsotope

I never intended to imply 30k out of a chain, as that's absurd. I get, historically, around 3,500 miles out of a waxed chain, regardless of manufacturer.

On wet lubes under the same conditions, typically 3,100-3,200 miles.

Wax has the additional advantage of easily running pairs of chains (one is waiting in the crockpot while one is on the bike) so I get at least a year's mileage out of one pair of chains (split between two bikes.)

eduskator

Wow! That's good to know. According to the following data based on 20+ lubricants tested, it is quite interesting how low the stretch is after 100 hours of usage : 0.05 for the home-maid one, close to 0.2 for the Molten Speed Wax (MSW) one and somewhere between 0.9 and 1.0 when using factory lubricants. I would be interested into seeing after how many hours would the waxed chain reach 0.5 and 0.75.

-.05 .9 equals to 18 times more stretch
-100 hours at an average speed of 30 km/h equals to 3000kms (or roughly 1900 miles)

Riding conditions will most likely greatly affect these numbers (wet roads, dirty roads, stress put on the chain, rider, etc.). Moreover, we don't know if these tests were all done using the same drive train components and riding environment though. They were probably not.


*Credits to Oz Cycle for providing this table in one of his Youtube videos

woodcraft

Seems like there would be better than ~10% better life if it's supposed to be so efficient & low wear, & especially for swapping/lubing chain what- every ten days?

I start to get up for waxing when I read these discussions, but balk at the frequency of re-applying. I get well over 5k miles from a chain ('tho I probably let it go further than you)

with motor oil for pennies, re-applying every 3 or 4 weeks, and rarely cleaning the chain. I also rarely wash the bike, so I don't care that much about a pristine drivetrain.

I realize that you weren't trying to convince me of anything- I'm just rambling...




AFAS the environmental argument posed above, PTFE is decidedly not benign. It is extremely persistent- the tiny particles basically never break down, accumulating

in the environment including tissues. (disclaimer- I do use a bit of Tri-flow)

https://greensciencepolicy.org/highl...ted-chemicals/

DrIsotope

I swap chains once a month. I also don't bother with PTFE-- I tried it, and it make zero difference in performance or longevity, so far as I could tell.

The biggest single difference came from dropping a puck of Mr. Zog's Sex Wax (surf wax) into the crock pot. The softeners easily double the amount of miles between dips.

Also smells really good.

JohnJ80

That's about what I get out of a chain whether I use wax or Smoov (wax based dry lube) or Morgan Blue Extra Dry lube (which really isn't dry). What I did note with the wax was a lot of paraffin buildup on the jockey wheels and chain rings that was hard to get off easily. So I quit using it. I also noticed that the chain remained very quiet with wax until until suddenly it was quite noisy and needed to be lubed again.

Anyhow, since my drivetrain didn't seem to last any longer, be any quieter, or stay any cleaner, I kind of gave up on it.

canklecat

I'm not sure whether wax has increased the lifespan of my chains. I seem to get plenty of use from chains regardless of lube methods. My hybrid/casual bike that I've used a lot on the local groomed gravel/chat trails got more than 2 years and 5,000 miles of use before I replaced it a few months ago. And the chain was still running fine, no problems with the cassette or chainrings. It was a little stretched but I probably could have used it another year. I just needed a narrower chain when I switched the drivetrain from 7-speed to 8-speed cassettes. The original chain seemed to clatter a bit and was more finicky with the 8-speed setup.

I got similar use from the first waxed chain setup on one road bike, begun in summer 2017. That chain is temporarily benched because it was cut for a 13-25 freewheel and short cage RD. When I switched to a 13-28 freewheel I needed a longer chain. So I stored the chain and freewheel together in case I go back to that setup.

jadocs

It will be very interesting to see what life I get out of a chain.

Presently, my chain has over 7k miles and still hasn't busted the .5. This was using Dumonde Tech lube (Did my first wax last week). Caveat is that I'm super anal about keeping a clean drivetrain so I never let any gunk build up on my chain or drivetrain, and never over lube. Buddy of mine has the same chain and not as anal about maintenance. We ride the same routes...his chain lonely lasted 3k miles.

MidTNBrad

Apologies to myself on hijacking my own thread, but tell me about that 13-28 cassette. Is that 11 speed? Who makes that range?

eduskator

Yep. Some people do wait until reaching a higher wear mark (0.75 - 1.0) to replace their chains instead of 0.5! It does certainly add a few hundreds of kms of usage.

Re-waxing is recommended every 250-300kms, which is still less often than when using regular lubricants. My current one (Muc-Off Dry Lube) requires re-lubing every 100kms or so.

eduskator

Not surprised at all to read that. It's actually nice to be able to compare with other riders. Your friend will most likely replace his chain 3 times by the time yours will need to be replaced. Expensive, isn't it?

jadocs

I bet I could go longer, we will see. I don't ride in crap conditions because I have a great indoor setup. Occasionally I'll get caught in the rain. As far as time spent, after the initial wax you are just pouring boiling water over the chain and dropping it in the wax. You are also saving a lot of time not having to deal with deep cleaning the cassette, jockey wheels, and rings.

jadocs

Yeah, we are similar in weight, we have the same gear ratios and I ride harder, so the only variable left is maintenance or keeping the drivetrain clean.

noodle soup

I usually get about 3300 miles out of a chain before it gets to the .5 mark.

That's insane. I'd need to re-lube 4x a week.

eduskator

I know. I guess I could do more mileage between re-lubing, but I like my chain to be as quiet as possible. I just clean it & re lube it every 2 rides. It does, however, attract a lot of dirt even if I ride only on sunny days & completely dry pavement.

DaveSSS 

If you wait too long to change a chain, the result may be a cassette that suffers from new-chain skip. Alternating the use of several chains will prevent that and allow each chain to be used longer, since you aren't tossing chains prematurely to avoid new-chain skip.

My home brew wax lube that cost pennies per ounce uses far less wax and easily lasts for 200kms, There's really nothing that forces more lube at that point, but it's convenient for me. As far as I can see, it has all of the advantages of hot waxing without the hassle of dipping the chain. I remove my chain for an occasional cleaning, since I believe that it will extend chain life. I always have spare chains that are clean and lubed, ready to make a quick change.

If you believe that waxed chains never need to be cleaned, then you would never have to remove the chain for cleaning, just wipe off the exterior and apply more lube, for the life of the chain.

woodcraft

Or mid-ride.

noodle soup

I would like to hear from some other users of Muc-Off dry lube, but that's way off this thread's topic.