Riding close to the white line?
04-09-20, 10:57 PM
#26
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Michigan law;
"A person operating a bicycle upon a highway or street at less than the existing speed of traffic shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except as follows: ... When riding as near the left-hand curb or edge as practicable on a one-way highway or street."
"A person operating a bicycle upon a highway or street at less than the existing speed of traffic shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except as follows: ... When riding as near the left-hand curb or edge as practicable on a one-way highway or street."
"practicable: adjective
able to be done or put into practice successfully."
You weren't able to ride further to the edge because of safety considerations, road conditions, traffic, you were going to turn left up ahead, or something else.
So just take the lane if you feel that's the safe thing to do.
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04-10-20, 06:01 AM
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California has the same, and it has zero legal significance.
"practicable: adjective
able to be done or put into practice successfully."
You weren't able to ride further to the edge because of safety considerations, road conditions, traffic, you were going to turn left up ahead, or something else.
So just take the lane if you feel that's the safe thing to do.
"practicable: adjective
able to be done or put into practice successfully."
You weren't able to ride further to the edge because of safety considerations, road conditions, traffic, you were going to turn left up ahead, or something else.
So just take the lane if you feel that's the safe thing to do.
04-10-20, 09:05 AM
#28
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I have researched bike laws in about 2/3 of the continental states, and all of them had some version of the FRAP (Far Right as Practicable) law. Florida had the widest list of exclusions, ending with something like "or for some other reason".... meaning you could say you had to ride in the middle of the road because of invisible aliens and probably be covered, legally (at least in Florida, where tinfoil is the hat of choice and teeth are optional.).
The FRAP laws are not meaningless, they are Essential .... because they establish the legal right of the cyclist to be on the road, in the traffic lane, given a reasonable cause for being there---and allow a wide range of causes.
Basically, you are allowed to be Anywhere on the road surface---same as a car---and are required to share the road safely and courteously with other vehicles.
Automobile drivers never look at the edge of the road, because the never intend to drive there. Cyclists always scan the roadside for debris, pavement irregularities, obstacles ... because we die if we fall into traffic.
As many have said, if a cyclist rides close to (or in) the traffic lane, cars will react (usually) by giving the cyclist a little more room, or will at least be aware there is a cyclist. A cyclist on the far right edge of the breakdown lane is almost ignored. And since that cyclist might well need to suddenly swerve further into the traffic lane to avoid debris or potholes or an animal, it is best if the following drivers are already a little cautious because they see a cyclist.
Ride where you feel most comfortable. In my experience, no matter where you ride, someone will criticize you. On the road, definitely some drivers will .... and if you mention on this site that you ride anywhere on the road, someone will tell you it is the wrong part of the road. Probably if you ride on a trainer in your garage, your spouse will do criticize you .... for something. So just stay safe and comfortable.
The FRAP laws are not meaningless, they are Essential .... because they establish the legal right of the cyclist to be on the road, in the traffic lane, given a reasonable cause for being there---and allow a wide range of causes.
Basically, you are allowed to be Anywhere on the road surface---same as a car---and are required to share the road safely and courteously with other vehicles.
Automobile drivers never look at the edge of the road, because the never intend to drive there. Cyclists always scan the roadside for debris, pavement irregularities, obstacles ... because we die if we fall into traffic.
As many have said, if a cyclist rides close to (or in) the traffic lane, cars will react (usually) by giving the cyclist a little more room, or will at least be aware there is a cyclist. A cyclist on the far right edge of the breakdown lane is almost ignored. And since that cyclist might well need to suddenly swerve further into the traffic lane to avoid debris or potholes or an animal, it is best if the following drivers are already a little cautious because they see a cyclist.
Ride where you feel most comfortable. In my experience, no matter where you ride, someone will criticize you. On the road, definitely some drivers will .... and if you mention on this site that you ride anywhere on the road, someone will tell you it is the wrong part of the road. Probably if you ride on a trainer in your garage, your spouse will do criticize you .... for something. So just stay safe and comfortable.
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04-10-20, 09:17 AM
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Oregon has a "as close as practical to the right" law, and even goes into how riding two abreast is against the law given certain conditions. My old team and I were on a training ride in the middle of nowhere once and got pulled over by a Deputy Sheriff for being two abreast. When pressed to show us the statute to defend the stop, he pulled out the statute book and flipped right to a bookmarked page. Sure enough, we were in the wrong. "When operating a bicycle alongside not more than one other bicycle as long as the bicycles are both being operated within a single lane and in a manner that does not impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic." The deputy had to slow down behind us, so we were impeding normal traffic.
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04-10-20, 09:30 AM
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The deputy just has a bias and was showing off his "power". However this situation is never a time to argue, because the situation can quickly have you outside your rights by other actions you might take or are perceived by the officer as taking.
04-10-20, 09:31 AM
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Epic.
04-10-20, 09:34 AM
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If you could find an un-biased judge, they would have said that was an incorrect application, because even if only one bicycle was involved, then the deputy would have had to slow down too. As well, I'm sure the deputy comes across other motor vehicles that go slower too and impede his normal and reasonable movement.
The deputy just has a bias and was showing off his "power". However this situation is never a time to argue, because the situation can quickly have you outside your rights by other actions you might take or are perceived by the officer as taking.
The deputy just has a bias and was showing off his "power". However this situation is never a time to argue, because the situation can quickly have you outside your rights by other actions you might take or are perceived by the officer as taking.
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04-10-20, 09:44 AM
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But we were riding two up, which changes things. If we were in a single line and he was impeded, that's fine. But the same situation two abreast places us in the wrong. It's like getting into an unavoidable car accident, but then finding out the other guy was drunk, so now all of the blame falls onto him for being on the road to begin with.
While many cyclists believe that they must ride single-file at all times, this is not actually the law in Arizona. Cyclists should not ride with more than two people side-by-side, according to ARS 28-815.
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04-10-20, 09:58 AM
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First of all, do not ride on a limited access highway, it's too dangerous, and illegal in most araes.
I commuted on a highway for 5 years, the shoulders always had lots debris in them. I would ride so my left shoulder was at or near the white line. I would have the occasional close pass, but for the most part I rode without incident.
I commuted on a highway for 5 years, the shoulders always had lots debris in them. I would ride so my left shoulder was at or near the white line. I would have the occasional close pass, but for the most part I rode without incident.
Each state has areas where it is illegal for safety & traffic flow reasons, but the cyclist as a tax payer, & citizen has an equal right to the public infrastructure. That infrastructure is there to provide for the greatest good of the whole, not just of those with cars.
Here in Washington: Intstate 5 about 15-20 miles North of Everett, to nearly the Canadian border and any place South of Olympia to nearly the Oregon border is fair game. There is a small section allowed between Olympia & Tacoma as well. Interstate 90 at (or around) Issiquah/North Bend-ish all the way to Spokane city limits has cyclist all the time as it is the most direct route across the state.
I-405 as designated by the "4" & the "0" is the second northward bypass of I-5 in the state & is included in the I-5 bicycle exclusion area.
I-205 is the start of the Portland bypass at the Washington/Oregon. It joins at around mile 10 or so...I think bicycles are forced off around there. Portland exclusion zone, and all that.
I-715 is a spur (the "1") & as a branch is connected to the exclusion area so is likewise prohibited at basically the on-ramp onward.
Every state has a map at that states respective .gov website.
Last edited by base2; 04-10-20 at 10:22 AM.
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04-10-20, 10:08 AM
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Oregon has a "as close as practical to the right" law, and even goes into how riding two abreast is against the law given certain conditions. My old team and I were on a training ride in the middle of nowhere once and got pulled over by a Deputy Sheriff for being two abreast. When pressed to show us the statute to defend the stop, he pulled out the statute book and flipped right to a bookmarked page. Sure enough, we were in the wrong. "When operating a bicycle alongside not more than one other bicycle as long as the bicycles are both being operated within a single lane and in a manner that does not impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic." The deputy had to slow down behind us, so we were impeding normal traffic.
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04-10-20, 10:16 AM
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Not all laws are aligned with safety of the cyclists. We have the same law but usually ignore it as it's safer to ride two-up on roads without a shoulder. Riding single file encourages vehicles to pass when they shouldn't, i.e. blind corners or oncoming traffic. There are numerous situations where even a single cyclist or line of cyclists should 'impede the normal and reasonable movement of traffic'.
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04-10-20, 10:45 AM
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gregf83 Cypress
Maybe the officer didn't know it's ok to cross a double yellow line to go around road obstructions?
Here in Washington the law basically commands drivers to do so for pedestrians, cyclists, downed trees, fallen rocks, farm tractors, road side mowing operations, & anything else that is not motor vehicle traffic. (A licensed motor vehicle doing the speed limit or normal operational speed of a vehicle of that type is not an obstruction, but should still be driving in the right lane...Think an old Yugo, Model T, oversized load doing a mega structure move, etc...)
So, the only reasonable conclusion is that the officer felt that oncoming traffic was so strong, so heavy, that he could not have safely passed while in the adjacent (oncoming) lane & was thus impeded by your side by side riding.
Would he have felt the same if your group were staggared one row in the middle & the other in left tire track & not side by side? (Meaning: 2 single file lines, offset & spaced so that no one was next to another.)...I dunno. It's been my experience cops mean well, but are usually wrong when it comes to cycling.
Maybe the officer didn't know it's ok to cross a double yellow line to go around road obstructions?
Here in Washington the law basically commands drivers to do so for pedestrians, cyclists, downed trees, fallen rocks, farm tractors, road side mowing operations, & anything else that is not motor vehicle traffic. (A licensed motor vehicle doing the speed limit or normal operational speed of a vehicle of that type is not an obstruction, but should still be driving in the right lane...Think an old Yugo, Model T, oversized load doing a mega structure move, etc...)
So, the only reasonable conclusion is that the officer felt that oncoming traffic was so strong, so heavy, that he could not have safely passed while in the adjacent (oncoming) lane & was thus impeded by your side by side riding.
Would he have felt the same if your group were staggared one row in the middle & the other in left tire track & not side by side? (Meaning: 2 single file lines, offset & spaced so that no one was next to another.)...I dunno. It's been my experience cops mean well, but are usually wrong when it comes to cycling.
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I shouldn't have to "make myself more visible;" Drivers should just stop running people over.
Car dependency is a tax.
I shouldn't have to "make myself more visible;" Drivers should just stop running people over.
Car dependency is a tax.
04-10-20, 10:45 AM
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04-10-20, 10:51 AM
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The deputy was still not totally correct on this. As per numerous court rulings, having to slow down momentarily does not constitute "impeding the normal and reasonable movement of traffic." (If it did, any vehicle traveling slightly below the speed limit could be ticketed for impeding traffic.)
I'm a big "right to remain silent and only give vague non-committing answers when I have to" kind of guy. A whole lotta "huh", "hm", and "I don't know" is all that they get from me.
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04-10-20, 10:56 AM
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I didn't advise anyone to argue with a law enforcement officer. I simply stated the deputy was not completely correct in his interpretation of the law. It's not uncommon.
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04-10-20, 11:04 AM
#41
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related - on non highway roads, in my area, I look forward to the annual, May street sweepers
04-10-20, 04:19 PM
#42
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Riding close to the white line?
I have previously posted,
I've always ridden just to the right of the white line. In my neck of the woods the bike lanes / shoulders range in width from 1-3 feet, so there's not much space.
These are single lane roads, but the majority of drivers usually follow the "3 foot" rule when passing a cyclist]
These are single lane roads, but the majority of drivers usually follow the "3 foot" rule when passing a cyclist]
Michigan law;
"A person operating a bicycle upon a highway or street at less than the existing speed of traffic shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except as follows: ... When riding as near the left-hand curb or edge as practicable on a one-way highway or street."
Also, 6-8 ft shoulders? They'd be a luxury around here. More often than not it's more l ike18-24" .. or less on the roads I ride.
"A person operating a bicycle upon a highway or street at less than the existing speed of traffic shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except as follows: ... When riding as near the left-hand curb or edge as practicable on a one-way highway or street."
Also, 6-8 ft shoulders? They'd be a luxury around here. More often than not it's more l ike18-24" .. or less on the roads I ride.
"Winding Country Road or 50 mph Highway with Shoulder?"
I recently replied to this thread, "+1 to this signature line of @MNHarv, 'Just three paved feet to the right of the white fog stripe is all I need' "
Could well be the Road and Commuters’ motto, or even Prayer... "Lord, Just three paved feet to the right of the white fog stripe is all I need.”
I recently replied to this thread, "+1 to this signature line of @MNHarv, 'Just three paved feet to the right of the white fog stripe is all I need' "
Could well be the Road and Commuters’ motto, or even Prayer... "Lord, Just three paved feet to the right of the white fog stripe is all I need.”
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 04-11-20 at 06:43 AM.
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04-10-20, 04:24 PM
#43
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What do you mean by highway?
04-10-20, 04:41 PM
#44
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I have researched bike laws in about 2/3 of the continental states, and all of them had some version of the FRAP (Far Right as Practicable) law.
Florida had the widest list of exclusions, ending with something like "or for some other reason".... meaning you could say you had to ride in the middle of the road because of invisible aliens and probably be covered, legally (at least in Florida, where tinfoil is the hat of choice and teeth are optional.)...
Ride where you feel most comfortable. In my experience, no matter where you ride, someone will criticize you. On the road, definitely some drivers will .... and if you mention on this site that you ride anywhere on the road, someone will tell you it is the wrong part of the road.
Probably if you ride on a trainer in your garage, your spouse will do criticize you .... for something. So just stay safe and comfortable.
Florida had the widest list of exclusions, ending with something like "or for some other reason".... meaning you could say you had to ride in the middle of the road because of invisible aliens and probably be covered, legally (at least in Florida, where tinfoil is the hat of choice and teeth are optional.)...
Ride where you feel most comfortable. In my experience, no matter where you ride, someone will criticize you. On the road, definitely some drivers will .... and if you mention on this site that you ride anywhere on the road, someone will tell you it is the wrong part of the road.
Probably if you ride on a trainer in your garage, your spouse will do criticize you .... for something. So just stay safe and comfortable.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
(from a now-closed thread) I think I have absorbed all the good advice I can for a complete and agreeable cycling lifestyle, and recently I have clicked on many fewer threads than before.
In the past I have offered IMO several useful suggestions about cycling, particularly for winter and urban cycling, to multiple repetitive threads. They are usually lost in the morass of often scores of replies, both in agreement and dispute with mine.
In the past I have offered IMO several useful suggestions about cycling, particularly for winter and urban cycling, to multiple repetitive threads. They are usually lost in the morass of often scores of replies, both in agreement and dispute with mine.
04-10-20, 05:08 PM
#45
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Also, as explained in the VeloNews legal column a few years back, traffic refers to all legitimate road users. That includes bicycles, i.e., bikes are traffic. As long as cyclists are riding at a normal speed for a bicycle, they can not be impeding traffic.
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04-10-20, 11:26 PM
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04-11-20, 07:03 AM
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04-11-20, 08:04 AM
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"Winding Country Road or 50 mph Highway with Shoulder?"
I've become a creature of MUPs and similar who mostly avoids roads. However, one of my paths has a couple of miles explicitly placed on the at least half (and often full) lane wide shoulder of a state highway signed at 50 mph or so.
Initially I hated this, but I've come to be reasonably comfortable there - speeds are fast, but someone would have be be negligently driving *fully* in the shoulder to put me in danger. And because cyclists are never "in cars way" there seems to be very little driver frustration on display - where there are two travel lanes many will even change to the left lane...
When I went looking on Strava, it seems people take a winding, woods-edged country road instead. I don't think I'd be as comfortable riding that, as it requires drivers to recognize my presence, wait for an opening with good sight lines, and then pass with enough space...
But is my thinking reasonable, that faster traffic not normally in the "lane" I would be riding in, is perhaps less of a risk than somewhat slower traffic traveling in the same space I would be occupying?
I realize there's a lot more energy in being hit at say 60 mph vs 40, but I feel like the probability is much lower
I've become a creature of MUPs and similar who mostly avoids roads. However, one of my paths has a couple of miles explicitly placed on the at least half (and often full) lane wide shoulder of a state highway signed at 50 mph or so.
Initially I hated this, but I've come to be reasonably comfortable there - speeds are fast, but someone would have be be negligently driving *fully* in the shoulder to put me in danger. And because cyclists are never "in cars way" there seems to be very little driver frustration on display - where there are two travel lanes many will even change to the left lane...
When I went looking on Strava, it seems people take a winding, woods-edged country road instead. I don't think I'd be as comfortable riding that, as it requires drivers to recognize my presence, wait for an opening with good sight lines, and then pass with enough space...
But is my thinking reasonable, that faster traffic not normally in the "lane" I would be riding in, is perhaps less of a risk than somewhat slower traffic traveling in the same space I would be occupying?
I realize there's a lot more energy in being hit at say 60 mph vs 40, but I feel like the probability is much lower
... Generally, if there's a routing choice, I love a fast road with a wide breakdown lane, because I can usually go flat out without interruption for hours.
I don't mind a lightly trafficked winding narrow country road, but if it's busy, I feel like it gets dangerous pretty quick.
I don't mind a lightly trafficked winding narrow country road, but if it's busy, I feel like it gets dangerous pretty quick.
I take the winding country road unless there’s a fair amount of traffic, or there are some other mitigating factors.
My thought is the wider and straighter the road is, the more comfortable drivers feel to reach for their phones to check a text, etc...
My thought is the wider and straighter the road is, the more comfortable drivers feel to reach for their phones to check a text, etc...
All my cycling as a decades-long, year-round commuter and occasional centurian in Metro Boston ranges from dense urban, to suburban, to exurban, but no rural.
I'm goal-oriented, be it miles or destinations, so I take the Road as it comes, to satisfy my Goal.
Over the years, I have described roads, so for this post I compiled my descriptions in order of cycling pleasure (paved roads only)
I'm goal-oriented, be it miles or destinations, so I take the Road as it comes, to satisfy my Goal.
Over the years, I have described roads, so for this post I compiled my descriptions in order of cycling pleasure (paved roads only)
- Enchanted
- Exurban (no residences, no commercial buildings)
- Residential: Urban (dense, multi-unit dwellings), Suburban (single unattached homes)
- Light commercial (storefronts close to the sidewalk, street parking)
- Heavy commercial (shopping malls, driveway accesses, parking lots)
- Industrial: (dreary vistas, rough roads, debris-strewn)
… almost every road is a good road if you ride it early enough in the day.
PS: It just occured to me, though I don't ride in the downtown proper, I should probably add a category of "Downtown," as typified by the urban canyons and narrow, often-crowded streets of Manhattan, or the Financial District of Boston.
Downtown riding would, IMO rank just ahead of "heavy commercial."
Downtown riding would, IMO rank just ahead of "heavy commercial."
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 04-11-20 at 08:15 AM.