cyccommute 

Angels on pin heads. You aren’t taking into account the dynamic nature of the wheel when loaded. Deflection of the rim is from 0.15mm to 0.2mm or 10 times the run out that you are saying is so important. A 45 kg downward load on the wheel reduces the force on the spoke from 20 to 35 kgf. That kind of makes any concern about 1 kgf differences on spoke tension moot.

adipe

ok, that's a very badly tacoed rim in your attached pic document but the point i was trying to make is the accuracy in getting the back the rim into shape, not how large the repairable distortion is. that attached pic does not show the end result, with the radial runout, lateral runout and the spoke tension variance after the wheel was taken care of. so your pic document attached as an example of mechanics repairing badly tacoed wheels is irrelevant.

look, if you ever TRY repairing a wheel all by yourself as to have your goals of spoke tension variance to end up to less than +/-6% and runout less than +/-0.1mm ... you might remember everything i have written here.

but i doubt you ever will do any of this. you are in a different trade. and i'm not a wheel builder by profession but my financial status does not afford me to buy new parts or buy new wheels. somehow you might feel superior as you are accomplished in your frame building profession but guess what... in life it's not always who studies or works a lot after all his studies are made to end up successful in some business, it also matters where you were born, who your friends are etc. etc. etc.

so this is why i am so very pissed, especially when my points are either ignored or dismissed by anyone who brings the discussion to topics that are irrelevant. it was you who said that wheel's trueness and uniform spoke tension do not guarantee the bike is a nice ride but i never claimed that other things do not matter. so you were just minimizing this aspect of low spoke tension variance goal which could be achieved if wheel builders would ever try a different approach - with a spreadsheet etc. - and i also made a rhetorical question to which the obvious answer is this: as far as customers don't ever understand how to inspect a wheel in order to know the quality of the build... there will be sloppy work in perpetuity.

maybe some wheel builders DO work with spreadsheets or maybe they have a computer program to assist them, maybe they even have tools to read directly into the computer the runout and spoke tension so that a machine DOES not turn the nipples but humans do while assisted by such a program.

on this forum i was just answering the OP on the subject so he might understand the principles and maybe somehow apply them, even if not with a spreadsheet at the moment.

should we say to the OP that wheel's runout and spoke tension variance are not that important to work on too much and that he should pay money on factory wheels?... that he should not ever try his hand working on wheels because he won't spend other than quite a lot of time and time is money etc.?

everyone is free to choose on what to spend his time and money. but if you ever study wheel building you might come across this point: the wheel's largest load that can be handled repeatedly without the rim being bent or spokes losing tension (as in unscrewing nipples OR fatigue) depends on the overall spoke tension, together with spoke count, rim shape etc. i thought this point was obvious already but here, i expressed it explicitly.


the higher the spoke tension the higher the rim's compression and the lower arch of deflection of the rim, the less the spoke fluctuate in tension overall and the higher the maximum load - as in accidental, margin of safety concept.

in that video you can clearly see that while the bottom spoke gradually has less and less tension the 4:30 and 7:30 spokes are having more and more tension. so, DS spoke tension variance is a very critical aspect in order to have a wheel with high average spoke tension.

dishless hubs are not preferred, some folks can weigh 300 pounds and they even might want e-bikes etc. etc. etc.

i was offering a practical way out for some folks. you can't dismiss my arguments with the truism that it's not uniform spoke tension along with low runout the only things to care for regarding wheels. i never said that hubs are all the same or that the rims are all the same quality.

cyccommute 

Since I’m on your ignore list, I know this will fall on deaf ears (maybe) but people aren’t ignoring you or dismissing you. We disagree with you. Your post tend to concentrate on minutia that are unimportant or on ideas that don’t apply to the situation on hand. You then act like what you say should be taken as gospel without question. That’s not a good way to win people over to what you are saying.

If you are getting “pissed” about someone disagreeing with you, that is your problem. Persuade, don’t pontificate...and this is coming from someone who pontificates far too much.

Andrew R Stewart 

"you are in a different trade. and i'm not a wheel builder by profession but my financial status does not afford me to buy new parts or buy new wheels. somehow you might feel superior as you are accomplished in your frame building profession but guess what... in life it's not always who studies or works a lot after all his studies are made to end up successful in some business, it also matters where you were born, who your friends are etc. etc. etc."

In my country we've just gotten past 4 years of a ruler using similar debating techniques. If you can't discuss the differences with the goal of persuasion you instead diminish your opponent by attacking their credibility and define them in the way you need to. I am not a pro framebuilder and said as much with my "hobby" reference. Did you not read my reply completely or well? My "different industry" is doing exactly what we are talking about

And now I see you are walking back your previous position of studying being so important. I do agree that who you know and where in society you are born into does impact your position as you age. Not that this has anything to do with wheel building and truing. I guess that's another tangent for another thread... Andy (who is moving on having said enough about spoke tension and tooling)

Broctoon

The OP said some of the spokes were very loose. I think this is why they are breaking. We think of high tension as being a cause of fatigue, but sometimes it’s just the opposite...

When all the spokes are at similar tension and near their theoretical max, the forces applied to them while riding will be pretty consistent. Loose spokes, on the other hand, get many cycles of increasing and decreasing stress for every mile ridden. I think this fatigues the metal more than higher stress at a fairly constant level.

Am I wrong in this theory?